Talk:Hopewell Parish, New Brunswick

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links to Pennsylvania

I just refined wikilink in the article to link to Hopewell, Chester County, Pennsylvania as the probable origin of early settlers (around 1765 when this was founded). Chester County is near the eastern seaboard and has many historic sites. I reason that the Hopewell intended is not either of Hopewell, Bedford County, Pennsylvania or Hopewell, Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania because they are further west and were not settled yet. --do ncr am 01:12, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hellow Doncram< It is more likely that the choice of the name is a result of the settlement proponents, not the original settlers themselves. From what I've come to understand from scholarly articles and biographies, the Hopewell name choice relates to the proprietors, (Adam Hoops and Co.), who where of Swiss and German descent.--Placeographer77 (talk) 12:59, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Need for new entry for Hopewell Township?

Consider, since this page aims to discuss the Parish (as sort of a vestigal vessel for current organizational units), that a separate entry on its origns, the Hopewell Township, would be appropriate. It is certainly of interest to the topic however does little to develop the Parish in its current context. In terms of governemtn and local representation, a discussion of the colonial government's approach to representation in the assembly, as well as local authority might also be of value. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Placeographer77 (talk • contribs) 13:32, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I went through this with another editor, who grossly misunderstood the nature of the province's parish system. Please follow the wikilink to the civil parishes article and read the preamble there.

It would be nice to have articles on the pre-Loyalist towships but there's almost nothing out there. The Provincial Archives of New Brunswick seems to have lost the documents William F. Ganong refers to that detailed the boundaries of the township grants. There would be so little unique information for each township that it would make more sense to do an overview article with notes on each of the township. You can find Ganong's works as free downloads on Canadiana.ca; fair warning that the most useful one, the monograph on boundary development, has to be download as individual pages.

I disagree with another editor's comment that "Parish name origins are from the historic township. It is misleading and erroneous" as many parishes adopted their names from preëxisting sources, whether townships, grant settlements or major communities. It would be more reasonable to note that a name predated the parish in cases where this happened than to create a separate category.

Please change things back to how I had them. These changes are not helpful to anything other than turning this page's layout into a category of one. G. Timothy Walton (talk) 17:12, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The invitation, although off the topic of creating an entry for the hopewell township, is appreciated. The condescension is not. These changes are helpful in improving the entry's accuracy and readability. Your apparent need to rubber stamp the entry can only realistically show a proprietary outlook on your part which is inappropriate unless you can point me to the discussion of the need for layout uniformity - what I believe you mean by "category of one".

You write, ":It would be nice to have articles on the pre-Loyalist towships but there's almost nothing out there. The Provincial Archives of New Brunswick seems to have lost the documents William F. Ganong refers to that detailed the boundaries of the township grants. There would be so little unique information for each township that it would make more sense to do an overview article with notes on each of the township. You can find Ganong's works as free downloads on Canadiana.ca; fair warning that the most useful one, the monograph on boundary development, has to be download as individual pages.:It would be nice to have articles on the pre-Loyalist towships but there's almost nothing out there. The Provincial Archives of New Brunswick seems to have lost the documents William F. Ganong refers to that detailed the boundaries of the township grants. There would be so little unique information for each township that it would make more sense to do an overview article with notes on each of the township. You can find Ganong's works as free downloads on Canadiana.ca; fair warning that the most useful one, the monograph on boundary development, has to be download as individual pages."

These speculations and conjecture are baffling. How then does a single township grant become the doctoral projects? Are you so unaware as to think there are not routes to accessing the information from the records of the past? Try looking for diaries. Correspondences. Etc. etc. What, is Ganong is not the only source? Do you think it is completely accurate? Many researchers since have had the benefit of access to what scholarly work and time have reveled. The original sources of boundaries are in the grants themselves, contained in a number of locations, and made available by the scholarly work of anyone willing to go to the truouble to access them. Besides, it is not necessary for there to be entries for each township (or all) for there to be just one i.e. Hopewell. I can't imagine you mean you expect there cannot be a history unique to a parish or township.

Thank you for your reading suggestions. I am going to offer you a suggestion as well. Not to counter your reading suggestions, but to give you another source to draw upon (which one would also find in the first referenced work in the history section of this article). Also at Canadian.ca, is the amazing resource of the Chignecto Post news print, which, being scanned from microfiche, can allow you to read such original works as the selected entries of the 1770 William Calhoun diary from the comfort of your computer.

--Placeographer77 (talk) 19:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Any condescension was unintentional, the result of an unexpected time crunch combined with some baggage from dealing with an editor who'd apparently reached all his conclusions from post-1960 information. I tried to write a decent description of my plans last night but was unsatisfied with the result.

Ganong is what I'm most familiar with; not perfect but better than PANB, who claimed to lack the pre-Loyalist documents describing the boundaries of the Township grants when I contacted them last year. Rayburn built upon Ganong but I was able to easily pick out errors when I first read it about twenty years ago. I certainly welcome any improvement. I'm hoping that today's rewrite of the Origin of name section shows why it makes sense to have a separate section. Specifics are usually better than barebones but I worked with what I had available.

A mea culpa on assuming a lack of access to some of these source materials. My sporadic involvement with this material dates back to pre-internet days when the material was available only in archives and special collections and I was dirt poor and limited in travel. To save further time: rationalisation, justification, weak defense on my part.

Please, do improve my work here. I think I've made some improvements in the parish articles despite my stilted writing but there's definitely room for improvement. G. Timothy Walton (talk) 20:23, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@G. Timothy Walton, You appear to need to allow that something can be true/have sufficient truth, even if you do not possess that information. I appreciate that you have asked for citations, and I appreciate this method of challenging the information. I don't so much appreciate the rollbacks.

i.e. Your experiences with PANB do not conclude for me the information cannot be confirmed. It is illustrative of what you find acceptible that, if it is not in the Ganong papers, it cannot be confirmed. When, since these are pre-New Brunswick grants, naturally they would be Nova Scotia records housed at lands and records as well as the provincila archives on Dalhousie Campus. But these are not the only records, and the records can be accessed in other ways.

we are looking for verifiable information. I have verified to you the origins of the shared boundary between Hopewell parish and Saint John County. You will see that despite the challenges, it is possible to veryify, even if you have yet to do so. Placeographer77 (talk) 17:05, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]