User talk:Spartaz

Spartaz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

What again?

I'm a long term user (first edit 2006) and have been an admin on or off since 2007. When we first started there was so much idealism and we really had no strong policies about inclusion except a desire to have some level of sourcing. As time moved on we became more structured and around the time I became an admin in 2007 we were grappling with the concept of collapsing non notable articles into lists which I was at the forefront of as a regular afd closer and constant presence at DRV. I had a lot of patience once and for that reason was regular DRV closer for a long time after GR Berry left the project. Sadly, my patience was degraded over time and getting involved in the PORNBIO wars pretty much washed out a lot of the good faith that policy and courtesy quite rightly requires us to show. This was again a major change in our approach to content and one of the first SNGs that was deprecated in favour of a more rigid approach to proper sourcing. Since then our content in this area has become much better and we are seeing similar struggles now in the sports arena where SNGs are slowly giving way to GNG level standards.

I have always taken a very legalistic approach to closing discussions that I recognise does not fit well to the current community standard, where low participation level allowing more brigading of votes or allowing more non-policy based arguments. For this reason I'm not really closing discussions but will still happily review old closes. Otherwise I mostly review and nominate unsuitable content as a BLP is a serious matter and needs to be properly sourced.

i am willing to userfy deleted articles for improvement as long as there is a reasonable likelihood that they can be saved. If you are challenging a deletion, do you have three good sources?

Useful Links:

• Deletion Review
• Articles for Deletion
• Unblocks

Please don't leave talkback templates as I always watchlist pages when I edit and I'm perfectly capable of looking for a reply myself.

please stay in the top three tiers

Reply

I've edited before on other wikis online about fan interests related to video games. Was more of a lurker for a while, reading and contributing here and there. Thank you, Right cite (talk) 20:43, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Request for undeletion: Ateaa Tina page.

Please I got a notification that the page I created, Ateaa Tina has been deleted. Please I humbly request for you to review the deletion and undelete it as the decision is a mistake. Ateaa Tina is a notable and popular musician who has been in the Ghanaian music industry for about two decades. Her 2003 collaboration with Ghanaian legend Daddy Lumba, "Bubra" is regarded as one of the best duet albums in Ghana's history. Recently she announced her comeback in the music industry after a decade hiatus. Please consider and undelete the article. Thank you. Mellowdeaous (talk) 14:34, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

• The consensus of the discussion was against you. Spartaz ^Humbug! 16:06, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Celliant

Hello, I understand that the Celliant page was deleted. Unfortunately, the comments related to deletion were on the old page and not related to the proposed changes we were suggesting. Who could I reach out to that would consider to userfy either "Celliant" or "responsive textiles"? I would like an open discussion with an admin to discuss the science of infrared, its biological effects on the body and how it can be incorporated into textiles. We are not trying to promote or sell through Wiki but we would hope that Wiki would want to cover this science. Appreciate any additional info/advice. Also, as the deletion page has been archived, and Celliant has been deleted, I don't know where to respond further. The last delete comment from Blue Riband was again based on a review of the old listing. Thanks for any help/advice. Borristhedog (talk) 21:18, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

• I understand you have a COI on this subject. My advice would be to let someonelse fight this fight as, frankly, your motives are suspect and, as a volunteer, I'm not minded to spend my time helping to advance anything smelling of promotion. On you point about improvements, the last vote was several days after your last comment so the onus is on you to prove Blue Riband was looking at the wrong version of the article. Spartaz ^Humbug! 08:58, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you for taking the time to respond. I understand you are a volunteer. I have found most of the communication throughout this process to be cynical and confrontational without really trying to understand the facts. "Smells of promotion" to create a wiki page based on "responsive textiles"? Or the physiological benefits of IR? There is certainly "meta-data" on this subject in the medical community. Maybe but the facts are that this is science and the wiki community has so far not shown any interest in trying to understand if it should be included/a space for it and has spent the time criticizing because we are connected to the science. The last vote I referenced was March 6th? and then it was "locked" so I didn't have a way to reach out and it appeared it was locked by you. And yes my previous comment was several days prior but I didn't have a chance to reply to the last comment which was only there for a day or less before it was locked. I believe I had previously stated that the comments were not being made based on the correct entry. How do I "prove" this? I can't force people to review the correct entry. I was told to find an editor/administrator to write the article versus someone associated with our company and now I am being told I can't even ask an editor/administrator because of my COI. So far, I have not been able to navigate/discover a receptive path for people that are trying to build out verifiable, factual, science based innovations and discovery and improvements. Any further advice or direction would be most welcome and appreciated. Borristhedog (talk) 17:58, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Sasha Grey

I've already stated I'm happy to revert back to anything anyone wants, as long as it's properly verified by BLP-quality references.

Given the onus within a BLP, maybe we just protect the article from the ips? They've not participated in any discussion in over a year.

Given the history of problems with have with BLPs of people in adult film, maybe full protection? Sanctions apply for BLPs in general, and the type of problems with get with adult film tend to be serious. I'm already seeing hints of it going down hill quickly, spilling over from the recent Right cite (talk · contribs) problems. I've refrained from formally notifying editors of the sanctions. --Hipal (talk) 18:56, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I've requested partial protection after the references from the most recent ip edit failed a simple check at RSN and even RSP. --Hipal (talk) 20:05, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

On my talk page, it states I am usually open to holding myself to one revert if you think it will help a situation. Just let me know. Is this enough?

Policy requires removal of unsourced and pooorly sourced content from BLPs. These are not my personal conditions. Sanctions apply. I've offered solutions, and I'll continue to do so. Consensus requires adherence to policy. --Hipal (talk) 21:22, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

The article has been semi-protected, so that will help. --Hipal (talk) 21:24, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Refund of articels Sodha, Gaur Rajput and Bari (caste)

Hi, I came across your user page, when you closed the AfD Akhil Bharatiya Kshatriya Mahasabha, thanks, further I noticed that you are willing to userfy the deleted pages. Would be thankful if you can refund me above pages for improvements, although I was not the page creator but as a Wikipidian I feel are worth their page with proper citations. I tried to save them in Deletion Review Jethwarp (talk) 10:21, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Johny Messo

Hi, please can you take another look at the discussion that was closed as deletion, since two users voted to keep, only one for deletion, and one for deletion or selective merge. Does such a divided vote constitute a consensus for deletion? Sorabino (talk) 15:48, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, in the discussion on the related article World Council of Arameans (Syriacs), there were three votes to keep the article, with no votes in support of the deletion proposal, but the discussion was just relisted. Sorabino (talk) 18:20, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

If you are counting votes then you are not looking at the strength of the arguments. There was a detailed source analysis and your sources failed to sway the delete side at all. You did not persuade the discussion that your sources were sufficient, one keep vote claimed sources that they declined to explain or defend and other advanced sources that were refuted without challenge. When you read the flow of the arguments then the conclusion is quite clear. None of those arguing we don’t have the article are unreasonably delete minded - indeed two of them are reliable weather vanes for the quality of sources. Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:59, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I understand, but please take a look: second user who initially voted just to delete (Bearian) made another look after improvements and agreed to the possibility of a selective merger. Since there was only one clear vote in favor of deletion, and two in favor of keep, with one vote for deletion or merge, and one more user (who just commented) pointing to the existence of various additional sources, was there a possibility of relisting, because the votes were so divided? And to return to the other question, why was relisting applied in discussion on World Council of Arameans (Syriacs), where there are three clear votes for keep, with no votes for deletion? I am asking that because there might be another possibility: if it turns out that article on the WCA is kept, instead of deletion "Johny Messo" could be transformed into redirect to that target? Sorabino (talk) 19:31, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the relist I didn’t the keep votes were strong enough to create a clear consensus. Regarding the deletion you are still counting votes rather than looking at the arguments. If anything changes I’m quick to restore articles and give them another go. Just drop me a line if you ever find better sources. Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:59, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I respect your personal assessment, but contrary opinions of users who voted to keep those articles should also be acknowledged. It seems to me that there was no consensus to delete that article. Please, could you reconsider the possibility to relist that article (Johny Messo) for another week of discussion? There is no harm in that, and things might get clearer. Sorabino (talk) 22:15, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Maybe they would but its clear your sourcing won't get better or you would have brought it out already. In any event, I don't review closes under the threat of a DRV and since you have been canvassing to look for support for that I suggest that you just do it. Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:24, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Canvasing? Threats? Why are you using such language, when you can see that I was just sounding participants of that discussion for their impressions on the closure, hoping that we could reach some understanding here. I addressed you here directly, on your talk page, and all of them on their talk pages, because there is no other place to do so, in an interval between the closure and the initiation of a review process. How on earth have you come to feel threatened by that? Didn′t you see that I contacted all participants, regardless of the way they voted? Please, I have to ask you once more to reconsider relisting for another week, because there are so many sources on that subject that can be added. The closure was premature, and votes were divided, that is not hard to see. Sorabino (talk) 06:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

OK, I initiated a review, hoping that discussion will be relisted, thus allowing further improvements of the article. Sorabino (talk) 08:11, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Deletion review for Dick Sheppard (stuntman)

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Dick Sheppard (stuntman). Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. SportsOlympic (talk) 20:18, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

WP:CREATIVE #1 and citing photographers

You said on my talk page if I had any questions I could come here, and this literally just came up. I was perusing AfDs and came upon an AfD for a photographer. After looking for sources it seems that most of my searching brings up articles, books, magazines etc giving her credit for photographs. Do you think this would count as citing her work in such a way to meet CREATIVE #1? Is there a noticeboard for a discussion about that? I don't see any sort of interpreting notability notice board, and plain notability noticeboard is basically just AfD. Any input would be appreciated before I irk people voting in AfDs with a silly rational. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:50, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Citing in that context means being quoted as a creative influence. Credits for pictures are a bit like journalists getting byelines. Its evidence of some significance as a creative but insufficient on its own to count. For living people we tend to take a harder line then just relying on subject notability guidelines and - where the GNG sources do not exist, the threshold for retaining the article is much higher than it would be for a non-living thing. The BLP policy of doing no harm is in tension with our desire to document stuff and there is clearly less risk of harm to an inanimate thing than a person with very limited sources where the only properly sourced thing could be negative. Portraying that person’s life in a fair and well rounded way could well be impossible. Other opinions may be available but I used to answer emails sent in to the foundation with OTRS and I saw a lot of people rightly distressed about their articles and, in my view, if its a living person who is not clearly notable then we shouldn’t have the content until either they have passed and can’t be hurt or proper and thorough sourcing emerges, Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:52, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

What if the source, rather than just giving the standard "photo by X" includes a small blurb of text about the photo itself in a book or magazine, i.e. this? I do agree with and understand the issues surrounding being able to provide a well rounded article instead of something that is a hit piece because of the sources available. Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:59, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Peers would mean notable creatives in their own right. So if several notable artists were citing the photographer as an influence then yes several examples would be a worthwhile contribution to the debate and could meet 1. Having a photo described in an article by a non-notable journalist, not really so. Spartaz ^Humbug! 19:09, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Gotcha. One last question if I may? Would having photographs included in a book of photography count towards WP:CREATIVE #4b, assuming that the book itself was significant and notable? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:13, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

No, sorry. An exhibition is in a gallery. A book devoted to one artists work might well count as a single gng source but it depends on the level of coverage. Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:03, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Gotcha. Thanks for the help. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

→

typo

Greetings. There is a typo in your close here that prevents me from getting what you are saying. (Personally, I make about ten such typos a day.) Thanks. --- Possibly (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

I fixed the typo. The message was that if you want to recreeste it, stick purely to what the sources say. Personally, I'd restart it in draft and get someone to review it before considering mainspace. Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:46, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Journal of Assyrian Academic Studies

Please, could you take another look at the closure of AfD for the article Journal of Assyrian Academic Studies, that resulted in complete deletion, but only one user voted for that solution. In the order of voting:

• Nominator (Piotrus) proposed deletion, but also allowed merge.
• User Buidhe supported deletion or some form of merge.
• User Randykitty supported deletion.
• User Sorabino voted to keep.
• User Headbomb supported deletion or merge.
• User DGG supported merge and asked for the prolongation.

Since only one user supported complete deletion, while all others had complex votes and explicitly allowed some form of merge, or keep, the outcome should have been somewhat different? Where did you see the consensus for total deletion? Sorabino (talk) 16:38, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

This fails GNG. The policy based votes were for delete. With the exception of DGG the other votes were for delete first and very reluctantly a merge as second best. I don't think you actually understand that transwiki is not a merge. I have no objection to your adding a redirect but there was not a clear case that there was a lot of sourced material to merge. With the amount of aspertion and finger pointing you have offered as a substitute for policy based argumentation I'm afraid your neverending commentary got very little weight in the close. If you put your energy into writing actually notable content then we would all be better off. Spartaz ^Humbug! 16:53, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Please, lets not get here into those aspersion-issues; maybe you already noticed that several articles on Assyrian and Aramean subjects were recently proposed for deletion, or moved without RM by the same users, but that is a different theme. You mentioned a redirect as a possibility, but I would not dare to make one over your closure. That would be a good solution, if you could restore it as a redirect, to Assyrian Academic Society (that would be the most obvious target). Please, could you implement that solution? Sorabino (talk) 17:05, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

There is no technical reason why an admin needs to do it and its an entirely editorial judgement issue so, seriously, feel free to go ahead and make it. Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:33, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Ok, but I am just an editor, don′t have the power to restore something that is deleted. I could just make a new redirect, but that would not restore its edit history? I guess that only an administrator would be able to do that? In any case, lets wait few days to see what will be the outcome of AfD for the Assyrian Academic Society. If it is kept, than a solution might be applied. No need to rush with this. Sorabino (talk) 21:54, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Elsa D'Silva

Hi, I'm writing to follow up on the recent deletion of this article, as an involved editor and keep !voter. I had thought that at minimum, there appears to be WP:CREATIVE notability, due to WP:BASIC coverage related to her prominent role as the co-founder of SafeCity, and the regular coverage of her as an expert and commentator on a variety of subjects, and that there were likely other sources for the student editor assigned to the article for their class to review if the article cleared AfD. I still feel quite new to the AfD process, but I wanted to check in with you for a review, because 'no consensus' seems like it could have been an outcome of the discussion. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 20:40, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

J.D. Mata

Spartaz could you please at least move the article I started on J.D. Mata to a draftspace so that I can continue to work on it? Alternatively, undelete and relist for discussion. I feel that I addressed many of the issues raised by the early delete votes but if you could at least give me my draft, I can continue to improve it. Thank you. Larry Grossman (talk) 21:03, 27 March 2021 (UTC)