User talk:The Behnam

Deleting sourced info from article

Please don't delete sourced information from International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust. It is considered valdalism. -- Kendrick7^talk 09:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Just removing warning in accordance with our discussion on the article talk page. Cheers. Jeffpw 23:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Just because a reference link goes bad, it doesn't mean its OK to just delete material. That kind of thing happens from time to time. You should WP:AGF. -- Kendrick7^talk 02:02, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

WIN

I'm afraid that the prospect of getting a coherent, on-topic discussion with WIN is remote. He is, essentially a "fudamentalist" who believes that Sanskrit is the origin of all IE languages (at least he appears to believe that. It's often difficult to penetrate his meaning). Paul B 10:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Mazandaran

Your welcome. The Mazandaran articles could be written a lot better obviously, so if you've got the time to clean them up, that'd be wonderful. I don't have a lot of spare time these days, but I can certainly help when I do. DragonRouge 21:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Farahnaz Pahlavi

Please stop adding such lengthy comments in the AFD - it's considered an inappropriate form of discussion. Trim them down. A long paragraph is usually too long. Two or three sentences are usually ideal. Georgewilliamherbert 09:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Either produce knew arguments to your case, or accept defeat. You have so far convinced 0 out of 9 people. This is because you have tried to discredit (by insisting they misunderstand WP:Policies_and_guidelines#The_differences_between_policies.2C_guidelines.2C_essays.2C_etc. )others instead of proving your point. Thanks! Agha Nader 04:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader

Changing other people's comments

Please refrain from changing my edits. i.e. do not separate my comments and write between them. You have done this in the AfD of the Farahnaz Pahlavi article. Please reverse this action, and do not do it again. Please restore my comment to its previous un-seperated form. I do not appreciate you changing the format of my comment, as it detracts the organization and thus the meaning of my comment. Furthermore, how can people coherently read my comment with your edits in between my sentences? I will assume good faith and take no further action, given you restore my comment to it's previous form. Thanks!Agha Nader 20:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader

Indo European linguists community

by writing linguist , one can understand that Indo-Europeanist comprises only linguistic community and not other field of sciences. This is true for any reader who may not be aware of it's exact meaning and might understand it with that it comprises all field related to IE studies. This is just to make it more understandable to common readers who refers wikipedia as it's easily available on the net.

I had previously modified intro of IAM article which was implying that migrating Aryans brought Iron Age in India. This is wrong and it was written to in such a way that reader can misunderstand that it is because of this technical superiority migrating aryans could change language & culture of ancient India.

I hope you can understand my point. I am just trying to avoid any misunderstanding in reader's mind.

Hay, since you are interested in Ancient Iranian history , you might be interested in reading this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aryan_Invasion_Theory_%28history_and_controversies%29#Aryan_Migration_theory_in_Iran_from_The_Most_Comprehensive_.26_Scholarly_Website_about_Ancient_Iran_and_Iranian_Peoples_and_some_questions_from_it .If possible give some comment on it. WIN 05:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Saka as you told , were occupying major part of central asia before Turkic invasion. But, same Saka when invaded ancient India, they were assimiliated into India.So, pastoral nomads changing language of vast & heavily populated IVC advanced people is highly illogical, when Witzel accepts that they accepted Material culture of IVC people. Secondly, Aryans invasion of India is ruled out by all.As per OIT , Rig-Veda is pre-Harappan creation. Secondly, it should not be misunderstood that IVC had only towns and no villages like modern India.

Secondly, later other Sanskrit scriptures where Saraswati river is told to be ending in desert or it's demise asserts timeline that Rig-Veda was created before IVC towns. And, mature IVC is vedantic period.

Just think that Iranians have not changed their language ( Farsi ) after Arab invasion. So, why & how Ancient IVC people will change language & culture when Iranians have not changed mother language inspite of Invasion.

I think my point is well written in Wiki pages along with well ref. articles of many scholars. Try to read them to understand my point. Anyway, it was nice to have word with you. WIN 08:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear, I may not be able to help in any other matter since I am occupied with my daily business work. I am writing about Aryan related topic just because of some unknown immense interest in this matter from my childhood. I am sorry because even if I may know more about it ( Kashmiri people as asked by you ) , it will be difficult for me to spare time to write on any other topic. I wish that I would have been a school/college going guy so that I would have got more spare time to give some inputs. Anyway, thanks for asking. WIN 04:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijan

That Iranian political party you are talking about is not the source of that quote. Read the whole article please before judging such things. Thanks.

This is what the article says: At the same time it was obviously considered a strong reaction to the wave of Pan Turkism, which advocated the idea of separation of Azerbaijan from Iran, posing a great threat to Iran's territorial integrity. This has nothing to do with that political party.Azerbaijani 23:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed prod tag from Satapes and moved it to Sataspes

Hi, I removed the prod tag you added to Satapes. From what I can tell, the article is actually about Sataspes. I've moved the article to that location and added a few links to the talk page for references I found. Unfortunately, I don't have time to add these to the article at the moment, but they should at least show that the article is about a real topic. ScottW 21:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Personal Comments

Please make personal comments in my user page. Only put information that is directly related to keeping the article on the AfD page. I expect you put your comment in the correct page. Otherwise provide reasons as to why it is an argument to keep the article. Agha Nader 03:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader

As I said before, I will only make personal comments on your talk page. And I require you to do the same. I insist that you look up the word "keen". There is absolutely nothing insinuating about asking why someone is keen on keeping a statement on the article. Agha Nader 22:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader

You shouldn't be asking that kind of question if you have assumed good faith. If you accepted that I edit in good faith, the only reason I would want to keep "outranked" is because I feel that it adds to the article. It is not like I failed to provide sources for the "outranked" part. The whole question was insinuating, as my reasons for including "outranked" were clear; you were suggesting that I had "other" reasons for using the term. The Behnam 22:21, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Apparent Bias

It is apparent you are biased towards my nomination of the deletion to the article on Grand Ayatolloah Mohammad Ishaq Al-Fayyad. It was in fact you who proposed deleting this article. This was in a previous conversation. After I defeated you in the AfD for Farahnaz Pahlavi, you became sour. You also began following me around, and posting comments against me in the articles I have edited. It is clear that you are just sour about losing the AfD on Farahnaz Pahlavi. It is apparent you wish to debate me further, and thus follow me around. You have done so on the AfD on Grand Ayatolloah Mohammad Ishaq Al-Fayyad. Is this constructive to the improvement of Wikipedia?

I didn't propose deleting the article, so I do not know what you are talking about. I didn't become "sour", and no, this is NOT clear, despite what you claim. As far as I know, the only way I have "posted against you"(not a quote), is on the page for the Grand Ayatollah al-Fayadh, and this has nothing to do with Farahnaz Pahlavi. I noticed you edited the Iran-Germany Relations talk page not long after I made some edits when I checked the page. I suspected that you may have been following me around, but in any case, I actually fulfilled the request you made at the talk page. Then, I noticed the Fayadh stuff on your contribs page, including the nomination. Took a look at the page, thought it strange that a Grand Ayatollah was insignificant, did some research, and found that he was significant. Your accusations, especially those relating to the Farahnaz Pahlavi AFD, are utterly baseless, so you really oughtn't write such things. In no way is my opposition to the deletion of the al-Fayadh's page related to the previous AFD. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? The Behnam 04:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijan

Hey. I suppose I should say the same thing to you that I said to Elnurso:

While I agree that the disputed material should be taken out for now, you might want to have a look at this: Wikipedia:Protection policy#Editing protected pages. In essence, by editing substance in a protected article, I would be forcing a point of view on the majority of editors who can't edit protected pages, which generally should not be done. There is already at {{totally-disputed-section}} tag there—I hope this will suffice for now. In the meantime, I highly recommend that you try following the dispute resoltuion process, and see if that works. If that fails, try making a request for mediation. Regards, Khoikhoi 06:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, If I unprotect the page right now, how do I know that the edit warring won't resume? The truth is, it most likely will—and it would be better if you could try to resolve the issue first, and then request unprotection. Khoikhoi 06:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you could leave a (friendly) message at User talk:Azerbaijani? He seems to be the main user on the opposing side involved in the dispute. There are other other admins out there as well, perhaps you could ask some of them for advice. Khoikhoi 06:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

3o: Burk's Falls

Oka,y I re-removed that. Hopefully this war will cool off.--Wizardman 00:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion

My third opinion is that both you and User:Agha Nader should carefully read WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL, and take it easy on each other. :) Seraphimblade 04:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

MAZANDERAN

Present Mazandaran is that Mazandaran which remined in the SHanama, some scholars may think it is some where different, but Did you ever saw shanama ? did you ever hear the poems of Rameshgar ? Did you ever know who was Arash? where he born ? I will revert your all edits, Please don't insist to add what you would like --Ali 15:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Where was it ?

Ok, I am sure that it was not in eastern part of present day mazandaran province, neither located in yemen, nor located in syria, it was some where near or part of current mazanderan, did you ever hear about dimons ? DIV in shanama ? it is very popular in mazanderan, since many of towns are colled as Div kola, Div koti, which in mazanderani language means, house of divs, valley of divs, town of divs and more, Also i will add more alot information later, since my english is not perfect, even not professional, i need you to correcting them, Also i recommend you to reading this page [1], If any of them would be great, please don't hesitate to adding them to improving of articles about KINGDOM OF TABARIA, Await 4 ur reply --Ali 06:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Please let me about 10 days, during this week i am very busy, I will show you some evidences, did you hear this part of shanama when a mazanderani rameshgar describes mazanderan to the key kavous ?

a remind to mazandaran our country, I wish all of it's building keeped and some more ... Did you saw it ? --Ali 15:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi again Behnam, I found a book which i consider could be usefull for you, it has many of evidences about the location of Mazandaran, search ISBN 964-6189-01-6 Kind Regards --Ali 14:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Devdasi

Please read the article carefully. The designation of Devdasis as prostitutes is disputed by many so calling it as such violates WP:LEAD and WP:NPOV. The sources can be appropriately cited if one is careful about NPOV and not just trying to disparage Hindus. The matter is discussed carefully in the article so plz don't violate WP:LEAD by poisoning the reader's mind to a particular POV. Rumpelstiltskin223 04:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

You know what we should do? Try to come up with a good lead that will be NPOV to all points of view. Those who call it prostitution (a form of anti-Hindu hatred largely meant to incite violence against Hindus) and those who explain that it is a form of symbolic sexuality through divinity and most of the literal sex acts are voluntary and unpaid so not technically prostitution. Rumpelstiltskin223 04:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Some of your refs are bogus. This one:

http://child-abuse.com/childhouse/childwatch/cwi/projects/indicators/prostitution/part1.html Does not even mention the term "Devdasi" but discusses a different practice of Child Prostitution not connected to religion.

Ths ref:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/grhf-asia/repro2/TULASA.html#Causes%20of%20child

Alleges Child Prostitution in Devdasi but does not say that it is normative, which you assert, so it is a misrepresentation on your part. The ref actually means that the Devdasi system is abused by some people to promote Child Prostitution, not that it is categorically child prostitution. Rumpelstiltskin223 05:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are misquslifying and misreading most of the work. Many "allege" that it is prostitution but offer little evidence to support it other than the usual "Hindus are animals kill them all" polemic we see so often nowadays. Allegations can, of course, be listed if they satisfy notability and they will. However, the bias of scholars should not affect the neutrality of an ancyclopedia, which must give equal credence to all significant viewpoints, including those of notable feminist groups and scholars that I cna cite who rubbish these assertions of prostitution. Lastly, youe post to my talk page shows that you do not know how to Assume Good Faith so please do. Rumpelstiltskin223 05:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It is not a question of minority but notability. The views of notable feminists who are involved with these matter carry as much precedence as scholars who allege that Hindus are animals and should be mass-murdered (as many of your cited scholars do, on occassion). By your logic, a majority of people in the west have misconceptions about many non-western religions like Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism but those misconceptions are not paraded on wikipedia without qualification. Rumpelstiltskin223

Sorry buddy but it does. Rumpelstiltskin223 05:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Please. I did not make any PA on you. Your post to me assigned a motive to me without sufficient interaction to that effect which is a violation of WP:AGF. Personal attack. Sheesh! Rumpelstiltskin223 05:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is the backup you seek regarding western scholarship of Hindus:

http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2005/11/17/panelPromotesUnderstanding http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/english/skak.html http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_040912.htm

Rumpelstiltskin223 05:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Here [2] read the part about mocking Hindu victims of terrorist killings. Rumpelstiltskin223 05:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not just one person. It points to a pattern of bias in academia. That is not to say the anti-Hindu hate speech of "academics" should not be cited. It should. It needs to be contextualized and attributed as views and not undisputed facts.Rumpelstiltskin223 05:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Incivility and personal attacks

Providing bogus warnings as a scare tactic is a standard personal attack so warning: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Rumpelstiltskin223 05:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

No proof that this is used as 'scare tactic.' I gave you warnings so that you would shape up your behavior and contribute appropriately. Such warnings do not comprise a personal attack. However, your assertion that this is a scare tactic violates the assumption of good faith. You will be warned appropriately. The Behnam 05:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

As will you if you keep wasting both our times with fake warnings. Please stop trying to intimidate me with wikilawyerings and trying to push a POV and see below. Tha Rumpelstiltskin223 05:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Not trying to intimidate you, not wikilawyering. Please refrain from personal attacks and assume good faith. AND don't remove warnings from you user page. If you believe your were wrongly warned by me, talk to me about it. I don't consider them scare tactics so you may have to try an argument that has to do with the content I cited when giving the warning. Thanks. The Behnam 05:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Back-and-forth

This back-and-forth is a waste of both our times. We need to arrive at a mutual resolution so the best and most productive way is to start a sandbox where a neutral lead may be presented by all involved parties. Rumpelstiltskin223 05:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Child Pros?

http://child-abuse.com/childhouse/childwatch/cwi/projects/indicators/prostitution/part1.html

Says that same thing happens in Pakistan also. Shall we put that in? Then every Pakistani editor on wikipedia will scream bloody murder and stalk us both on wikipedia and hound us away (I've seen this done before. See Women in Pakistan here, here and here) Rumpelstiltskin223 05:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Objectionable

And I hope that you see what I find objectionable here. While your refs are notable, they are partisan. That is not to say that they can't be quoted, just not quoted the way you did, with extreme quote mining and misinterpretation with a specific agenda to push. Like I said, if you were truly interested in presenting a non-partisan view then you would attribute your sources, which you did not. See other cases like Geisha, for instance. Many scholars contend that it is a practice similar to Devdasi, but it is not written like you wrote Devdasi before I pointed out your mistake.Rumpelstiltskin223 05:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Pakistani Child Abuse

I already have tried to do similar things and was hounded out, though some users got banned for doing this to me and others. Like I said. We need to sandbox a lead that will be a compromise. Why do you have such a problem with this?

Furthermore, this article is on Devdasi, not Devdasi in India, so if Pakistan is listed in the source then it should also be listed in the article. Then see the hundreds of edit-wars that will ensue. I am only asking you to be pragmatic and neutral,not push a POV.Rumpelstiltskin223 05:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Kisaeng

What about Kisaeng (literally means prostitute)? Why can't devdasi be as neutral as that article?Rumpelstiltskin223 05:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Same question with Hetaera. Rumpelstiltskin223 05:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

My contention is that the same arguments that apply to Kisaeng and Geishas current versions apply to Devdasi as well. Rumpelstiltskin223 06:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Well then the same should apply for Geisha and Kisaeng also. Why bully Indians only? Rumpelstiltskin223 06:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Sources on Devadasis from Indian government website

Hi there. Just to let you know, I spent some time trying to get in something about Devadasi's modern status as sex workers into the article, but could not be bothered debating the issue with Rumpelstiltskin after wasting a day on it. The most NPOV article I could find is this report: http://nhrc.nic.in/Documents/ReportonTrafficking.pdf written by a member of the Indian Police Service and hosted on the Government of India website. Here are some quotes: "There is no denial of the fact that culturally sanctioned practices, such as the devadasi custom, which developed as a purely religious institution, saw a gradual decline when degenerated practices began to be associated with it, especially that of commercial sexual exploitation... For example, Harshad R. Trivedi’s (1976) study entitled, Scheduled Caste Women: Studies in Exploitation, shows how women belonging to the Scheduled Castes are encouraged to undergo initiation ceremony, and accept the devadasi way of life. Later on, such women are allured to take up the profession of prostitution either at local or at city red-light areas." (p199). "According to another estimate, girls dedicated as devadasis to Yellamma, Hanuman and Khandoba temples in the Maharashtra–Karnataka border area number about 2.5 lakhs (Ranjana, 1983:24). After initiation as devadasis, women migrate either to nearby towns or other far-off cities to practise prostitution. The backward areas of Belgaum district such as Saundatti, Kokatnur and Yellamman Gudda are more prone to this cult. These areas thus became the chief source for urban brothels. This fact has been validated in case study No. CS-KR-1." (p200) "Tarachand’s (1991) study entitled, Devadasi Custom – Rural Social Structure and Flesh Markets, once again reiterates that the devadasi system is contributing to the growth of commercial prostitution today and that this relation between the devadasi custom and commercial prostitution is quite ancient and close. Based on the data collected from commercial prostitutes in Gaum city of Karnataka state, his study points out that though it is against tradition, a sizeable percentage of devadasis were commercial prostitutes." (p200). I believe a few quotes from this study and a reference to the report in the introduction of the article would make the article more NPOV. Please feel free to contact me for my input into this dispute. Lemongoat 08:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)Lemongoat

If you see the user talk page for devadasi you can see the long argument I had with Rumpel about this. Historically, devadasis performed a totally different function than they perform now. For instance if you go to Vijayanagar (Hampi) or Khajuraho any of the other ancient / medieval Hindu cities in India you can see from the archeological evidence that devadasis were respected, learned members of those societies. Clearly the word "prostitute" doesn't apply to their role in those societies. However those civilisations are long gone and in modern Indian village culture devadasis are by and large girls from poor backgrounds who end up as sex workers. My *hope* is that if we highlight original role of devadasis and then discuss the modern situation of devadasis we can maintain NPOV and keep Rumpel happy. Some of the "library" is quoted in the Gov of India report above - but you're right, I think the rest can be relegated. A brilliant Indian (Hindi) film that shows the role of devadasis in modern India for what it is Giddh: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0260928/.

OK cool. Go ahead and make your changes and I will tweak it. It's worth noting that several states have banned the practice of dedicating Devadasis. For example check out Karnataka's "DEVADASIS (PROHIBITION OF DEDICATION) ACT, 1982": http://www.karnataka.gov.in/dpal/pdf_files/DEVADASIS%20(prohibition%20of%20dedication)%20Act,%201982-new-29.pdf. The act begins: "WHEREAS the practice of dedicating women as devadasis to deities, idols, objects of worship, temples and other religious institutions or places of worship exists in certain parts of the State of Karnataka; AND whereas such practice leads women so dedicated to a life of prostitution; AND whereas it is expedient to put an end to the practice..." This is hosted on the Government of Karnataka's website (Karnataka is a state in South India). Also note articles in the Indian press such as this: http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/30/stories/2006013020130300.htm. Actually the vast majority of informed Indians are quite aware devadasis are sex workers - such as my partner who works on a sexual health project for street children here in India. They see it as a social issue connected with poverty. However a vocal educated minority - primarily, it must be said, non-resident Indians such as Rumpel - see any criticism of any practice of Indian society, even by Indians, as anti-Hindu. Although I will try my best to assume good faith, my fear is that he will take whatever we say as anti-Hindu POV, even if (as I plan) we cite the report by the Indian Police Service (in my first post to you above) and the various acts that have been passed. I would love to be proved wrong. NB I am going to be in China for two months from this weekend, so if you want my input you'll need to do it before then. Unfortunately I don't have much time right now otherwise I'd write an intro myself - but I am happy to proof-read and amend. Thanks for taking this on and all the best. Lemongoat 06:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I've edited the introductory section to be what I consider to be NPOV, starting with the historical status of devadasis and then moving on to their modern situation. I've added sources which I don't see that anybody could rationally consider POV. I haven't added references for the first two sentences as I am short of time - but they are there in the rest of the article. Let me know what you think. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lemongoat (talk • contribs) 10:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

Hey there. Thanks for your comments. You're quite right - colonialists did object to it because of the sex, and so ironically they were forced into prostitution. I wouldn't call what they did originally prostitution - it's more like geishas. I was thinking of adding "ironically" to the start of the second paragraph - but that doesn't sound very encyclopedia. I didn't use the word "prostitute" very much because I think this is exactly the kind of thing that causes people like Rumpel to get excited. However if you look at the sources (the human rights commission report and the government of karnataka act) you'll see that they're much more explicit (!). I don't think there's anything unreliable about child-abuse.com - just that I wanted *all* the sources to be Government of India so that there's no debate about the reliability of the sources. I think that there's definitely room for discussion of the child prostitution aspect further down the page - I am just overall concerned in making sure that the introduction is watertight in terms of NPOV and sourcing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lemongoat (talk • contribs) 07:28, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

Yep, that sounds good. Unfortunately from now on I will be kinda busy. I should add one thing about Rumpel's sources. He likes to link to this: http://www.samarthbharat.com/devadasis.htm. This in turn links to an article here: http://www.samarthbharat.com/files/devadasihistory.pdf. I find both of these to be interesting and valid articles. Rumpel claims they support his position that not everybody calls it prostitution. Careful reading makes it clear this is a misinterpretation. Both articles make it clear devadasis were not *originally* prostitutes. That we can all agree on. However both of them are quite clear that devadasis are *now* prositutes. The meat of this particular argument is on pp39-40 of the latter pdf. I have quoted the same source as the author (Anil Chawla) which says that 49.5% of devadasis in this particular (typical) village are prostitutes. However the source on the next page is used by Chawla to support his (valid) claim that not all devadasis are prostitutes. This source is "JOINT WOMEN’S PROGRAMME, Regional Centre, Bangalore, An Exploratory Study on Devadasi Rehabilitation Programme Initiated by Karnataka State Women’s Development Corporation and SC/ST Corporation, Government of Karnataka in Northern Districts of Karnataka, Report Submitted to National Commission for Women, New Delhi, 2001-02 (year not mentioned in the report)". This is the source Rumpel reproduced on the Devadasi page. The table from this source reproduced in Chawla on p40 makes no mention of prostitution. However the ONLY other reference I can find to this article on the internet is here: http://listserv.indnet.org/cgi/wa.cgi?A2=ind02&L=reference&D=1&T=0&H=1&O=D&P=2433. It's not on the National Commission for Women site: http://ncw.nic.in/. This second reference suggests that the source *does* claim devadasis are prostitutes. I think it is clear from this that Rumpel's statement that the NCW claims devadasis aren't prostitutes is flimsy at best - for a start, the original article (http://www.samarthbharat.com/devadasis.htm) says "In due course, the malicious false statements became true. Devadasi, left with no other means of survival, had to become a prostitute". Since I am going past the Joint Women's Programme office in Bangalore tomorrow, I'll try and get a copy of the original report so we can settle this. I've emailed the director of the JWP (Jyotsna Chatterji) already to ask for a copy of that report so we can settle this once and for all. Lemongoat 08:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

request

Can you please tell Rumpelsteskin223 to stop adding unsourced bias to articles.He is trying to link Pakistan with terrorism.These are unsourced accusations.Nadirali نادرالی

Hi Behnam. You have here proof positive about what I told you earlier. Anyways I suggest you look at this [3] and this [4] and the rest of his talk page and particularly some very interesting discussions concerning a certain underground propaganda website [5][6]Rumpelstiltskin223 22:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou

Thankyou for your help.

The 2 articles where he has made some biased reverts are:

• anti-Hindu.

• gun culture in Pakistan

His so-called "sources" are some POV opininated [article] which he insists are "academic".When I warned him,he turned to an indian admin Rama's Arrow in an attempt to get me blocked.

I have limited evidence to believe he's a meatpuppet of banned Hkelkar.I can provide the evidence if you want me to.Nadirali نادرالی

See above. Also, a rather vain attempt to recruit meatpuppets and smear other users as "Hindu trolls" (see his posts on his little hate site pakhub http://www.pakhub.info) is precisely what got this user blocked before. Rumpelstiltskin223 23:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The yespakistan website seems similar to the kind of websites I tried to add to the devadasi page, but Rumps removed, except that it's decidedly less academic. There is no qualification for the author, and he uses strange phrases like "devil is in their implementation" regarding laws in Pakistan. Academics don't use odd wording for serious documents. While this could be cited as an example of a Pakistani "reform" opinion, it doesn't qualify to have too much weight. I am sure that other, more reliable sources regarding problems in Pakistan can be found.

I looked at anti-Hindu and Gun Culture articles, and what struck me first is that Rumps removes tags he doesn't like, despite there being no consensus for removal. Don't remove tags, but instead discuss the problem to reach a solution. These aren't your articles, Rumpel, and you shouldn't expect everything about them to be the way you prefer, especially considering your strongly anti-Western POV. You need to make a better effort at working with others rather than simply ignoring them and destroying their work.

However, at least in the case of the anti-Hinduism article, you(Nadirali) need to realize that the article is supposed to be about anti-Hinduism, so inevitably, studies regarding anti-Hindu views in Pakistan will receive mention. And don't tell me they don't exist in Pakistan; I know they do. However, many of the articles cited are not themselves addressing explicit anti-Hinduism, but they are included as part of a synthesis on Rumps part, which thus comprises OR. Just because you(Rumpel) think a certain newspaper article is a good example doesn't mean you can include it, as such a self-analysis is OR. You have to cite an actual reliable source about anti-Hinduism, that in turn may itself cite the article. Also, Jews shouldn't be mentioned; it is about anti-Hinduism, remember?

PakHub. Interesting website, definitely obscure, but from what I can tell, it isn't particularly hateful. Of course, I haven't searched the whole thing yet, so if Rumpel could direct me to the "hate" part, I would appreciate this. Hopefully, this isn't on the forum, since a forum really shouldn't be cited in the first place. Those two little articles don't seem problematic; Rumpel needs to give me some more details.

About the block log... you have blocks too Rumpelstiltskin, so if I judged against Nadirali based upon that criterion, you would be judged similarly. I don't know how you did not foresee my response to that.

In conclusion, remember, stay cool. The Behnam 00:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It's okay I resolved it [here]. Who said anti-Hinduism doesnt exist in Pakistan?I completely agree with you on that.However,the section is somewhat unencyclopediac with words like "biased" and somewhat exhaggerated.Rumps is bhaving like Hkalkar with his continues "anti-semetic" accusations.As for Pakhub,you are free to look over the site.Atleast 2 users there are indeed extrmists.But if you look carefully,we have condemned their comments repeatidly.The purpose of the site is not religion but to make people aware of Pakistan's (pre-Islamic) history.Nadirali نادرالی

Yup, I realize PakHub is harmless. The way Rumps made it sound at first was as if a random Pakistani forum was being used a source, which he characterized as "hateful." But it's obviously not a problem. I just pre-addressed the anti-Hinduism in Pakistan thing for precaution; I didn't know much about your editing habits and didn't know what to respect. After all, with Rumps, I was surprised to learn that he doesn't consider devadasi cult prostitution in any sense. I suppose that its back to normal editing for the most part; just tell me if you have a further issue with something. Thanks for working on this. The Behnam 01:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The term 'Tabarian'

I understand what you mean, but tabarian is more correct than tabari, like persian, armenian, georgian, and many of others, using tabari is looking like to using farsi or parsi instead of persian! which is possibly inaccurate, I also create the redirection pages from tabari to tabarian which helps to not confusing visitors, Thank you for advice and your care! --Ali 09:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

"The Behnam", stop pretending to be something you are not, those who should know who you really are, have already been e-mailed and informed. If you persist, your impostor aliases shall be added to your profile on the wikipedia watch project. --203.144.160.251 00:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

What is this crap about me being "Dr. Lukas Pietsch"? The fact-checking at Wikipedia Watch must really suck. The Behnam 09:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

It does, indeed. Could you perhaps activate your wiki e-mail? Thanks, Lukas ^(T.|@) 08:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

What about it?

Excuse me, but who exactly do you think you are to tell me that I don't have the right to edit the Ahmadinejad article? "Incessant" edits? I've only made 4 or 5 edits in the past week. Looking at your own edits (Surprise, I can open this page!), it's obvious that you edit the MA article more frequently than me.

And I have discussed it on the talk page ad nauseam. If you don't cease stalking me you will may be acted upon for disruptive editing.

I mean honestly, I've been the most level-headed editor of that article, and you come to me and say that I should ease off my editing? Do you honestly think I intend on decimating the article? Please don't waste my time. I have better things to do than make you happy. In the time it took me to write this, I could have helped so many other articles. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 05:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

mohem neest

The additions were not related to you. I really do wish to improve the article. As you can see here, the thong image was there initially. Somebody erased it. Our friend here isn't the first person to try to delete this article in any way possible, whether by AfD, or by erasing bits from it piece by piece. He didnt even suggest any improvements on the discussion page. A sure sign of a politically motivated afd. And that's sad.--Zereshk 02:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)