Talk:Palazzo della Civiltà Italiana

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Unjustified reversion

Well now, this edit removed some valuable information that I added: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Palazzo_della_Civilt%C3%A0_Italiana&diff=1052033544&oldid=1052017437. The fact that "groviera" primarily means "gruyère" appears to be reported nowhere else on Wikipedia. There is no need to omit it here, and it gives a fuller account of the etymology. As for the reversion to "Swiss Cheese" rather than my uncapped "Swiss cheese", that is not warranted by the context either. The present text at that point:

La Groviera (Italian for "Swiss Cheese") ...

My version:

The Palazzo della Civiltà Italiana, also known as the Palazzo della Civiltà del Lavoro, or in everyday speech as the Colosseo Quadrato ("Square Colosseum") or La Groviera (Italian for "gruyère" or "Swiss cheese"^[1]), is a building in the EUR district in Rome.

The later citation appealed to by the reverting editor (not shown here) is retained in my version; it makes the connection with some or other kind of Swiss cheese, but it does not supply the more exact etymology. Incidentally, that reference's exact wording is this:

... nicknamed Colosseo Quadrato or Groviera (Square Colosseum or Swiss Cheese).

Not "La Groviera", if we are going to be sticklers here. I put it out for consideration: Why not give the more informative etymology, with a perfectly authoritative source cited and supplanting nothing in the existing text? On this basis I am reinstating my edit. Let anyone who wants to revert it argue the case here. We want maximally informative articles that supply relevant information that most people would have trouble finding elsewhere, yes? 114.72.76.18 (talk) 05:53, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that Italians name Groviera also the Emmentaler cheese [1], which is clearly wrong, because gruyère has no Eyes. In this case the translation of Groviera with gruyère makes no sense, but Groviera should be translated with Emmentaler, which has a lot of holes, as this building. Alex2006 (talk) 17:44, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Alessandro, there is no problem here. It's simply addition of authentic etymological information that is so hard to track down elsewhere on Wikipedia. There are disputes over recent years about exactly what should count as gruyère. "Gruyère" from France does have holes, and so does Italian groviera. The source you link to mentions cheeses other than the original Swiss gruyère: "Più genericam., nell’uso commerciale, il termine indica anche l’emmental e le sue imitazioni di produzione nazionale" ["More generically, in commercial usage the term indicates emmental, and its imitations in domestic production"], but the primary meaning for "groviera" is given as coming directly from the etymology, which is definitely "gruyère". A similar linguistic story can be told concerning the Greek graviera (γραβιέρα) cheeses.

It would be unhelpful and opaque to substitute "emmental" in this article, and "Swiss cheese" by itself leaves some readers without information they are specifically looking for on Wikipedia. I see no reason to back away from my proposal that we neatly add such information, while removing no other information.

114.72.76.18 (talk) 22:24, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And I see you have now edited to remove any mention of gruyère, and any mention of "Swiss cheese"! Strange and unhelpful. Many good sources outside Wikipedia make the connections far more lucidly than you seem to want:

[2] "(GASTR). Formaggio svizzero a pasta dura, cotto, fabbricato col latte semiscremato di due mungiture / impropr. Emmental." (Reading "groviera" as "emmental" is here marked as "improper".)

[3] "qualità di formaggio, tipico della regione di Gruyère (Svizzera)" (No mention of emmental.)

[4] (A good collection of occurrences in sentences; some conenct with emmental and related cheeses, but gruyère greatly predominates as a meaning.)

I have no objection to a brief note about emmental and its holeyness; but I put it to you that this quality of "Swiss cheese" was perfectly apparent already – until you removed the phrase "Swiss cheese". So it's now worse than what we started with. Many readers who know nothing about Emmental will know that "Swiss cheese" has holes. They will not be helped. Please restore suitable mention of gruyère, and of "Swiss cheese". There is no reason to avoid giving correct etymological and semantic information, with attestation in good sources.

114.72.76.18 (talk) 23:01, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

^ Papademas, P., and Bintsis, T. Global Cheesemaking Technology: Cheese Quality and Characteristics, John Wiley & Sons, 2017. p. 220.

[1] Papademas, P., and Bintsis, T. Global Cheesemaking Technology: Cheese Quality and Characteristics, John Wiley & Sons, 2017. p. 220.

[1]