Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wes Maebe
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 00:19, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Wes Maebe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Despite associations with famous names, this producer and engineer does not appear notable on his own. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:02, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Besides working with famous names, this producer and sound engineer has a regular column in a highly regarded professional magazine, and is a board member of the APRS. Moreover, as an engineer for "famous names" this person has responsibility for putting down the sound of the pieces he records, and thus has a significant, if subtle, influence on the finished work - which is *exactly* why engineers are credited, and many other people working on a given production are not. martijnd (talk) 22:06, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Being a product reviewer for a magazine (highly regarded or not) is not inherently notable. Notability (for Wikipedia's definition anyway) is not indicated by a person's writings, but by the verifiable impact that person has made on his or her field or society at large. That impact is determined by what others have written about the subject, and no one seems to have written anything significant about Maebe. Further, whatever Maebe's responsibility for the success or failure of his clients, if no independent sources have written about him, then there is no notability. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 22:39, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Maebe is not simply a product reviewer - this is only (a small) part of his contribution to several magazines. As a column writer, he exercises significant influence over his professional field, as is the same with his position as a board member for one of the leading global professional trade bodies. As per Wikipedia's notability guidelines for creative professionals, Maebe satisfies several of the inclusion criteria: "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors." - clearly his board membership alone as well as the fact that he writes a regular opinion piece indicate that he (or at the very least, his opinion on matters) are regarded as important by his peers. The same can be said about his product reviews, but that is only a small part of his published work. Next, "The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." This criteria also applies to Maebes' work as an engineeer. Having been credited for contribution to well-known works of the likes of Sting, Roger Waters, and Elliot Randall (of Steely Dan fame) satisfies this criteria, and goes well beyond "association with famous names". Unfortunately, Maebes' field is not widely published or reported upon, so your own criteria of "no one seems to have written anything significant about Maebe" is not strictly relevant in light of the foregoing, and furthermore is not all that relevant in this case - the Notability guidelines make it clear that common sense must prevail, and it is a fact that within his industry, Maebe is certainly regarded as "Notable". You might have an issue that the article requires cleanup, or requires some more 3rd party sources, but this seems to be a case of "never heard of the guy, and who cares about sound engineers, so lets mark for deletion" "not famous enough in my book" is not the same as "not notable". In other words: "Notable" is not the same as "Mainstream"martijnd (talk) 22:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply Notability requires verifiable evidence. So far, we have only Martijnd's word that Maebe is a significant contributor to this field. Prove it with citations to reliable sources. The problem is not merely that the article presently has no sources, but that a Google search turns up no sources. If anyone has sources that I can't find, bring them forth. Maebe's role as sound engineer on various notable recordings does not constitute creating or co-creating a significant or well-known work. The creator of a recording is universally agreed to be the principal artist of the recording (Sting, Roger Waters, Elliot Randall, etc). A record producer might be credited as co-creator, if verifiable sources can be found to indicate that the producer's role added significantly to the quality of the product. A sound engineer can improve a recording's quality, but I would doubt that any engineer would be credited as the co-creator of a song or album. When it comes time to hand out Grammy's for "Best Song", "Best Record", etc, it is not the engineer who stands to accept the award. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 22:37, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply Your last comment shows how poorly qualified you are to actually be dealing with this subject (this is not a personal attack, merely an observation made on the basis of your erroneous and ignorant assumptions). Recording engineers *frequently* receive Grammy's for their work - look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Nichols_(recording_engineer)#Grammy_Awards for a simple example, so yes - in some cases, it *is* the engineer that stands to receive the award. I have made reference to several publications where Maebe is involved in, and have made reference to his board membership, but you keep dancing around these responses and coming up with new ways of interpreting the policies. A Google search will turn up many hits, links and sources that clearly indicate Maebe is notable (yeah yeah, google hits don't count - but you brought that up as a measure, not me), but looking at your personal edit history I am sure you will find some obscure application of WP policy to turn this into a "but that doesn't count" - I particularly enjoyed how you told (trolled?) one of the UK's most respected compilers of Soul music that his opinion doesn't count. Nevertheless, Maebe is - in his field - Notable, well known, and highly respected, and as I previously stated, his article might be lacking in certain areas, and might need a good cleanup (not something I am personally motivated to do - I don't really care about it in that way), flagging it for deletion on notability grounds is ridiculous, given the reputation and influence of the person involved. As for sources, a few off the bat are http://www2.aprs.co.uk/Default.aspx?pageId=248056 (APRS board members), http://voicecouncil.com/, http://www.audioprointernational.com/, etc - Stating that Maebe is not notable as a sound engineer is like stating that Jeremy Clarkson is not notable as a car reviewer, and that he is only notable because he plays a dumbass on TV a lot. martijnd (talk) 23:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC
- Clearly Martijnd has misread my prior comment. I did not claim that recording engineers do not receive Grammy's and other awards for their work. What I said was that, when a song or album is nominated as "Best Album", "Best Song", "Best Record", etc, it is the artist and perhaps the producer who accept the award, not the engineer. The point being that the artist and the producer are the "creators" of the work. Crediting an engineer as the creator of an album would be akin to crediting the assembly line worker for the design of an automobile. Clearly the worker must do their job correctly to produce a fine finished product, but they are not the creator of that product. If, as Martinjd says, there are sources available (whether Google can find them or not) I invite him (her?) to produce these sources. Saying "there are lots of sources" but failing to produce even one doesn't really help much. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:09, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Very amusing - my point clearly stated that an engineer makes a significant contribution to a work, not that he is to be credited as the sole creator. It is in recognition of this contribution that engineers are nominated and awarded Grammy's. ("To be credited", in the creative industry, means "to be formally recognised for participation in creation of the work" not "recognised as being the creator" and takes the form of a formal mention on a sleeve, colophon, or movie title / credit sequence). This is obvious, and requires no further discussion - You really are skirting the definition of trolling, with your selective attention to facts, and pulling things out of context. In any case, I have provided several sources above (several times) and they go ignored by you, probably because you are not interested in these sources at all, you appear to simply enjoy this game - evident from your history of deleting stuff as fast as it pops up on wikipedia. I have provided links to Maebe's contributions in magazines, links to the professional organisation where Maebe is a board member, and there are further, offline sources available (the physical media where Maebe is actually credited). I agree that not every soundengineer is notable. Maebe, however, is; at least, according to WP guidelines.martijnd (talk) 19:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Clearly Martijnd has misread my prior comment. I did not claim that recording engineers do not receive Grammy's and other awards for their work. What I said was that, when a song or album is nominated as "Best Album", "Best Song", "Best Record", etc, it is the artist and perhaps the producer who accept the award, not the engineer. The point being that the artist and the producer are the "creators" of the work. Crediting an engineer as the creator of an album would be akin to crediting the assembly line worker for the design of an automobile. Clearly the worker must do their job correctly to produce a fine finished product, but they are not the creator of that product. If, as Martinjd says, there are sources available (whether Google can find them or not) I invite him (her?) to produce these sources. Saying "there are lots of sources" but failing to produce even one doesn't really help much. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:09, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply Your last comment shows how poorly qualified you are to actually be dealing with this subject (this is not a personal attack, merely an observation made on the basis of your erroneous and ignorant assumptions). Recording engineers *frequently* receive Grammy's for their work - look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Nichols_(recording_engineer)#Grammy_Awards for a simple example, so yes - in some cases, it *is* the engineer that stands to receive the award. I have made reference to several publications where Maebe is involved in, and have made reference to his board membership, but you keep dancing around these responses and coming up with new ways of interpreting the policies. A Google search will turn up many hits, links and sources that clearly indicate Maebe is notable (yeah yeah, google hits don't count - but you brought that up as a measure, not me), but looking at your personal edit history I am sure you will find some obscure application of WP policy to turn this into a "but that doesn't count" - I particularly enjoyed how you told (trolled?) one of the UK's most respected compilers of Soul music that his opinion doesn't count. Nevertheless, Maebe is - in his field - Notable, well known, and highly respected, and as I previously stated, his article might be lacking in certain areas, and might need a good cleanup (not something I am personally motivated to do - I don't really care about it in that way), flagging it for deletion on notability grounds is ridiculous, given the reputation and influence of the person involved. As for sources, a few off the bat are http://www2.aprs.co.uk/Default.aspx?pageId=248056 (APRS board members), http://voicecouncil.com/, http://www.audioprointernational.com/, etc - Stating that Maebe is not notable as a sound engineer is like stating that Jeremy Clarkson is not notable as a car reviewer, and that he is only notable because he plays a dumbass on TV a lot. martijnd (talk) 23:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC
- Reply Notability requires verifiable evidence. So far, we have only Martijnd's word that Maebe is a significant contributor to this field. Prove it with citations to reliable sources. The problem is not merely that the article presently has no sources, but that a Google search turns up no sources. If anyone has sources that I can't find, bring them forth. Maebe's role as sound engineer on various notable recordings does not constitute creating or co-creating a significant or well-known work. The creator of a recording is universally agreed to be the principal artist of the recording (Sting, Roger Waters, Elliot Randall, etc). A record producer might be credited as co-creator, if verifiable sources can be found to indicate that the producer's role added significantly to the quality of the product. A sound engineer can improve a recording's quality, but I would doubt that any engineer would be credited as the co-creator of a song or album. When it comes time to hand out Grammy's for "Best Song", "Best Record", etc, it is not the engineer who stands to accept the award. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 22:37, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Maebe is not simply a product reviewer - this is only (a small) part of his contribution to several magazines. As a column writer, he exercises significant influence over his professional field, as is the same with his position as a board member for one of the leading global professional trade bodies. As per Wikipedia's notability guidelines for creative professionals, Maebe satisfies several of the inclusion criteria: "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors." - clearly his board membership alone as well as the fact that he writes a regular opinion piece indicate that he (or at the very least, his opinion on matters) are regarded as important by his peers. The same can be said about his product reviews, but that is only a small part of his published work. Next, "The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." This criteria also applies to Maebes' work as an engineeer. Having been credited for contribution to well-known works of the likes of Sting, Roger Waters, and Elliot Randall (of Steely Dan fame) satisfies this criteria, and goes well beyond "association with famous names". Unfortunately, Maebes' field is not widely published or reported upon, so your own criteria of "no one seems to have written anything significant about Maebe" is not strictly relevant in light of the foregoing, and furthermore is not all that relevant in this case - the Notability guidelines make it clear that common sense must prevail, and it is a fact that within his industry, Maebe is certainly regarded as "Notable". You might have an issue that the article requires cleanup, or requires some more 3rd party sources, but this seems to be a case of "never heard of the guy, and who cares about sound engineers, so lets mark for deletion" "not famous enough in my book" is not the same as "not notable". In other words: "Notable" is not the same as "Mainstream"martijnd (talk) 22:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As there appears to be a growing tension between user Martijnd and myself, I will recuse myself from further discussion on this topic and let the reviewing administrators assess the strengths of the various arguments and the validity of the provided sources. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:12, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:37, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Lacks coverage in independet reliable sources. I agree that Maebe's role as sound engineer on various notable recordings does not constitute creating or co-creating a significant or well-known work. I see no real evidence that satisfies notability criteria as "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors." Being a board member or writing stuff does not satsisfy. duffbeerforme (talk) 07:49, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.