Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of descendants of Meir Katzenellenbogen

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge and redirect to Meir Katzenellenbogen#Some notable descendants. Because there is a lot of material there, I will leave as is while the editors please finish the merge/redirect themselves, soon. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:12, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

List of descendants of Meir Katzenellenbogen[edit]

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Per my understanding of WP:NLIST, stand-alone lists of people must consist of individually notable people, as well as listing a non-trivial attribute of the people listed. While the people listed here are easily notable, the problem is that there are easily hundreds of notable descendants of Rabbi Meir Katzenellenbogen of Padua. As demonstrated by The Unbroken Chain, this list's main source, practically every blue-blooded Ashkenazi Jewish family can trace its descent from the Katzenellenbogens.

(A possible alternative is a selective merge to Meir ben Isaac Katzenellenbogen; reducing the list to names alone, and including only the most famous descendants.) הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 21:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 21:49, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 21:49, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. To the extent list is limited to notables. Subject is notable as entire book was dedicated to subject. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 00:10, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Brewcrewer: As an amateur rabbinical genealogist, I can assure you that there are hundreds of notable Katzenellenbogen descendants, and the page's creator's choice of members to list is rather arbitrary. The fact that there is one genealogical book—though considered outstanding in its field—devoted to the subject does not make the list non-trivial. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 00:17, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree re hundreds, though not sure if they can all be sourced to merit inclusion. I'm not that worried about the list getting to unwieldy. We can deal with that when it happens via deletion or by breaking them up into sublists.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 00:23, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing? The Unbroken Chain is very thorough, and is an adequate source for most of my theoretical hundreds. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 00:34, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming that is correct, who cares about size? Would you support deleting List of victims of Nazism, which should be far greater number than this list will ever be. If the subject is notable, and it appears you agree that it is as there is an entire book dedicated to the descendents, deletion is unwarranted. Don't worry about Wikipedia server capacity.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 00:42, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Merge and redirect per ISAK. Being a descendent of Katzenellenbogen is not, AFAIK, a career-significant attribute. Articles of this type should be restricted to very, very well-known (and covered, i.e. more than a single book) family trees, e.g. Descent from Genghis Khan, Royal descendants of Queen Victoria and King Christian IX, Kennedy family. For all others, ancestry.com is thataway ==> Clarityfiend (talk) 00:20, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator will probably be first to agree there are numerous books (mostly in Hebrew) on genealogy relating to rabbis in the last few hundred years and books that specifically discuss the descendents of Meir Katzenellenbogen (especially in connection to hasidim). Nothing personal here but your position exemplifies Wikipedia:Systemic bias.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 00:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but those numerous books demonstrate only the notability of general concepts in rabbinic genealogy, while a detailed listing of descendants over several hundred years and 15+ generations verges on WP:NOTDIRECTORY, which I think was Clarityfiends point. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 16:36, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is no "detailed listing of descendants over several hundred years and 15+ generations verges" and nobody is arguing there should be so WP:DIRECTORY is a strawman argument. As to your first point, do you not agree that there are other books besides Rothstein (not necessarily in English) that cover the subject of the descendents of Meir Katzenellenbogen?--brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:32, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The list, as it stands, consists mostly of 20th– and 21st–century personalities, who are, as I wrote, approximately 15th generation descendants of Rabbi Meir Katzenellenbogen of Padua. You seem to have misunderstood my words due to my inadequate use of commas in rambling sentences. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 21:16, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and Redirect to Meir Katzenellenbogen#Some notable descendants section (I have just created that section there for that purpose) per nominator's second suggestion. Agree with User הסרפד (talk · contribs) that the "selection" of names here is too skimpy and essentially random because, following the logic of "Jews are connected", in between these few names there should/could/would also be tens of thousands of other notables over the centuries. The list here seems to be more of a "waving of the flag" verging on violating WP:NOTSOAPBOX and WP:NOTMEMORIAL and not rooted in anything real. The references are disingenuous as one would have to search hard how they refer directly to Rabbi Meir Katzenellenbogen (1482-1565) himself. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 03:43, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Brewcrewer. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 00:43, 14 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and Redirect to Meir Katzenellenbogen#Some notable descendants per IZAK and Clarityfiend. --Bejnar (talk) 08:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.