Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 39

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Damallsvenskan

This issue was raised by @Hmlarson: on their talk page. In 2016, the Damallsvenskan was listed at FPL, based on this source which states the league as "a full-time professional league that attracts some of the biggest stars in the global game". That is fairly clear that it meets the requirements of FPL. So why/when was the league removed? If the league was not fully pro in 2016, as this seems to suggest, then fine. If the league was once but is no longer fully-pro, then it should still be listed there with dates that it was - because a player playing in the league when it was FPL would meets NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 15:37, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Let's reduce the # of clicks needed and speak for ourselves -- this is in response to the proposed deletion of Paulina Hedqvist Damallsevenkan player in 2016:

@Spiderone: (cc: Fenix down, GiantSnowman, and Number 57) -- I would like to request your individual opinions on how relevant WP:FPL is for women's football? Damallsvenskan is on essay in 2016 when Paulina Hedqvist was published.

When creating the Paulina Hedqvist article, I went along with WP:FPL "notability" and now you appear to be reinforcing the essay's irrelevancy once again. I invited Fenix down, GiantSnowman, and Number 57 to this discussion as you appear to have a long history of edits and reverts on the WP:FPL essay.

Is an article on a 2016 Damallsvenskan player notable based on WP:NFOOTY and its essay, WP:FPL? Hmlarson (talk) 15:42, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

The answer depends on whether or not the Damallsvenskan was a FPL in 2016. The sources are conflicting. Giant Snowman 15:53, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it was – there was a previous discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 26#Damallsvenskan on this issue and there are sources from dates either side of the one in question that claimed it was fully-professional that say it wasn't, and one from the same time that also says it wasn't. It seems unlikely that it would have become fully-professional for one or two seasons and reverted to being a semi-pro league? There have been errors in the listings before – the Russian Professional Football League was included for some time and then realised to be a mistake, after which a lot of articles (over a thousand) were deleted. Number 5 7 16:02, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

It's funny how these discussions are always buried on a men's football-focused talk page. I'm going to go with WP:FPL not relevant, nor reliable as evidenced here for who-knows what time. See also WP:WOSO. Hmlarson (talk) 18:50, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

You can't unilaterally ignore NFOOTBALL, and even if you choose to do so, you still need to ensure articles meet GNG... Giant Snowman 08:09, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

As a comment, NFOOTY policy is a bit stupid and too rigid. First of all Olympian athletes often are not professional or part of senior squad in association football. Second of all how do you define the phrase "fully professional" in regards to players and what is it based on? Players are not being paid by time they spent on the field, am I wrong? What is "fully professional"? It is either is or not. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 05:28, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Notability should not be based on Wikipedia's categorization, but rather on sources and references, otherwise it is discriminatory. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 05:34, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Well no, in football you have professional (what we call 'fully professional'), semi-professional, and amateur. Olympic athletes are notable under separate provisions, see WP:NOLY. And yes, it's well established that GNG takes precedence over SNGs. I don't fully understand what your point is. Giant Snowman 10:16, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Agree with @Aleksandr Grigoryev: that "Notability should not be based on Wikipedia's categorization, but rather on sources and references, otherwise it is discriminatory." Well said. I've suggested we create a new proposal for modifying the guideline in the thread just above this one: What is a professional league (December 2020). Curious what editors come up with to improve this.Hmlarson (talk) 20:36, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

GiantSnowman, have you read the Wikipedia article "FA Amateur Cup"? It says that the English Football Association reorganized its amateur competitions in mid 1970s, but does not disclose fully what led to it and what caused discontinuation of the tournament.

Now if you look at the articles of the English football, there are huge number of ridiculously unimportant amateur clubs of like the 11th and 12th tier, information of which has not been updated for several years. Not that I do not think they are worth of an article, but what are the standards then? If it is not English, it is garbage, but if it is out of the United Kingdom, it is ok. Is that how it is?

Another issue is the fact that Wikipedia is becoming somewhat judgmental based on random media outlets of certain journalistic opinion which not necessary correspond with reality. There are certain criteria that is implemented by such football organizations like FIFA and UEFA (for Europe) that for some reason are ignored and on talk pages Wikipedia users get impression and professional player should go to work from 9 to 5 to be considered professional. That is funny. Sports is an art of physical culture where its participants, athletes, express themselves. Sports should be treated as a form of art as its product is at the end entertainment or spectacle and it is not the same as craftsmanship. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Per one 'gatekeeper' here, "a small number of semi-pro players (in a league) has no impact on the FPL status" and if "media coverage of those leagues can be shown to be equal to those considered fully-pro" then the league can be included in FPL. I cannot speak to Damallsvenskan in 2016, but it is certainly the case *now* in Damallsvenskan that there are only small number of semi-pro players (if any) on first-team rosters (so not including academy call-ups) and major Swedish media outlets cover the league regularly (to infer notability). Therefore, I'd nominate Damallsvenskan to be added back to the FPL list regardless of the discussion outcomes above. Seany91 (talk) 08:30, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Can you provide some evidence for the fact that almost all the clubs are fully professional? I am also not sure GS' view on media coverage is widespread – it certainly isn't something I share. Number 5 7 09:15, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Support - I have subjectively assessed the Damallsvenskan coverage, and found it to be "massive". Although I can't be arsed to supply any WP:RSs to evidence this. Additionally, I am sure everyone realises I bring to bear a considerable degree of charismatic authority, and I have therefore decreed that all leagues beginning with the letter 'D' will henceforth be considered as a fully professional league for purposes of conferring presumed notability. I must emphasise that I am more than happy for other male leagues to be added to the list, provided I can be satisfied that they begin with this letter. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 14:55, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Happy to continue discussing this topic when you grow up. Giant Snowman 15:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

GiantSnowman this is you, right?

Do you still stand by your answers to Q9 at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/GiantSnowman - 2011 and Q17 at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/GiantSnowman 2? Hmlarson (talk) 01:13, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Hmlarson may I ask that you post on GS' talk page instead of here? I really don't see how any of this is relevant. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 16:46, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

GiantSnowman was reminded by ArbCom to:

"lead by example" and "strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy";
"respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrative actions and to justify them when needed",
"treat newcomers with kindness and patience";
and to apply these principles in all interactions with all editors. Completely relevant when they choose to do the opposite right here.

Also relevant are the 36 opposition !votes contributing to the initial faliure, of which many have to do with WP:FPL and WP:AFD, the subject of this talk page. Hmlarson (talk) 23:03, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I found this source which is about Berglind Rós Ágústsdóttir turning professional now that she has joined a team in Damallsvenskan. It implies that the league is professional or that it is expected that you sign a professional contract after joining the league. I know this isn't going to be enough to add it to the list but I thought that I'd throw it in here anyhow. Spiderone 16:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)