User talk:Yngvadottir

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Appeal by SecretName101 at AN

I hope you are well.

Not sure if you recall, but you participated in appeal to my topic ban. To my disappointment, you did not support my appeal. I currently am appealing again. I hope that the concerns you expressed may be lessened or completely alleviated this time around. If not, I would appreciate you share what concerns you have with me so I can address them to you before you reach a verdict if you chose to. I look forward to conducting a dialogue with any inquiries you may have.

I believe you also partook in my first appeal and the discussion that had following the imposing of the sanction. I apologize if I offended you in any of my comments around that time. I was at a point of emotional turmoil in my life at the time, I recognize I was rather reactive in my responses here.

SecretName101 (talk) 18:47, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

My new appeal is at the administrators noticeboard SecretName101 (talk) 18:50, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi SecretName101, thanks for letting me know. It will take me a while to look at your edits and post there. Yngvadottir (talk) 23:58, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

👍 SecretName101 (talk) 00:36, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Not rude

In the translation discussion, I was not being rude. I know that some people get irritated by getting their format modified in a talk page (even WP:TALKO states this). But it can be irritating also getting reverted, getting ones' edits changed, finding oneself in the minority opinion in a discussion... so many things. Context depends as to whether it is rude or not.

In the edit at hand, I modified the format following the exceptions to WP:TALKO, namely, "Fixing format errors that render material difficult to read." I have done quite a bit of research on copyediting paragraphs. And sometimes I try to facilitate the reading of someone's post by splitting paragraphs.

Many times editors only post their thoughts in talk pages, but forgetting about making paragraphs to help in the reading of what they write. I simply try to help by creating paragraphs. And usually editors don't revert said changes. I didn't mean to be irritating, just helpful. Thinker78 (talk) 22:33, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

You were being meddlesome, not helpful. The general rule on Wikipedia talk pages is: do not modify others' posts. The fact you prefer short paragraphs does not mean that a paragraph with long paragraphs is hard to read. You also used HTML to make the paragraph breaks (and you use them again here), which I believe is an impediment to users of screen readers, but I'll defer to the experts on that. Stop modifying others' posts unless the indentation is wrong or a line starts with a space causing typewriter text, or something like that that makes a post genuinely hard to read. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:04, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Summary:

Guidelines are handled with common sense, empathy and a desire to improve Wikipedia, and are not absolute rules, which can even be ignored per WP:NOTBURO. Assume good faith, don't assume someone was rude only for trying to be helpful to others.

Extended rationale:

1.Guideline, not absolute rule: "a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply."

As I stated previously, "I modified the format following the exceptions to WP:TALKO, namely, "Fixing format errors that render material difficult to read." The long text you posted made material difficult for me to read and probably for other editors as well. I simply added paragraphs to be helpful to others. It looks like you didn't even read my previous post.

Why wouldn't someone care about making it more difficult to others to read? Is it more a priority to you that someone else dared to add paragraphs in the text you wrote than understanding they were trying to make it easier to read by simply splitting paragraphs? Some people might have different capacities and it's easier for them to read text split in paragraphs. Why was it so irritating to you that you even indicated that I was rude?

It is not even that I prefer short paragraphs. It is recommended generally by expert writers.

Shorter sentences and paragraphs make your content easier to skim and less intimidating. Paragraphs should top out around 3 to 8 sentences. Ideal sentence length is around 15 to 20 words.

— Harvard Library, "Writing Guide", [1]

Although I have to say that I have read elsewhere that paragraphs can be as long as the author wants. According to Masterclass, "In traditional academic writing, paragraphs range from six to eight sentences".

But is there a specific recommendation for them to be long and not short as you seemingly imply? Can you provide a reference that advocates for long texts without paragraphs as the one you wrote? Maybe you are correct too. But meanwhile, as you can see, it is recommended that paragraphs be short to help the reader.

2.Regarding <p> to make paragraph breaks, you have an idea about screen readers, but not completely accurate. Per Template:Paragraph break, "using <p> tags can cause problems for navigation with screen readers, which expect these tags to delimit paragraphs of prose". I added said tags in paragraphs of prose, not in a list or references (per the context of said quote).

Also, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Indentation, "Blank lines must not be placed between colon-indented lines of text [...] If space is needed, there are two approaches [...] The second approach, for when the material is meant to be a single comment (or other list item, e.g. in article text) is to use new-paragraph markup". Which is what I did with the p tag.

3.Regarding fixing formatting of others' posts, refer back to exceptions in WP:TALKO and the description of a guideline. Also, per WP:NOTBURO,

Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policies without consideration for their principles. If the rules truly prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them. Disagreements are resolved through consensus-based discussion, not by tightly sticking to rules and procedures.

Thinker78 (talk) 23:19, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

References

Happy to see you not using HTML here. At the very least, it's unnecessary. Wiki-syntax provides other ways to make paragraphs.

The operative phrase is format errors that render material difficult to read. Paragraphs longer than your personal stylistic preference—or even recommendations rooted in journalism and in getting maximum engagement with blog posts—are neither a formatting error nor an impediment to understanding. Nor is NOTBURO or its parent, IAR, applicable to changing the formatting of others' posts in talk spaces. Both apply to improving the encyclopedia, and Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policies is more applicable to your wikilawyering; you are in breach of the basic guideline at WP:TPOC, The basic rule, with exceptions outlined below, is to not edit or delete others' posts without their permission. Please re-read the list of examples there, and note that I did not tinker with the strangely large number of colons you used in your paragraph breaks.

I am sorry that your reading comprehension is so easily challenged, as evidenced by your jumping to the conclusion that when I wrote in my edit summary that your meddling broke up the flow of my argument, I was implying that there was a specific recommendation for [paragraphs] to be long and not short, rather than referring to how I had explained points by following them with specifics. As you would know if you even read the entirety of one of the two links you placed here ("paragraph style and length vary greatly in different writing types"), and more so if you read more widely in actual published writing, writers vary in the length of paragraphs they use, including within the same work depending on the points they wish to make or the style they choose to employ. Which in any case (to vary in a different way from style guides for students) is only tangentially related to talk-page posts, at least in a forum for educated readers with no inherent screen-size limit, such as behind-the-scenes Wikipedia discussion spaces. I am afraid I must reiterate that your stylistic preferences, or even needs, do not constitute an emergency exception to the talk page guidelines: Respect others' comments and don't meddle with them unless they are broken. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:18, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

"I am sorry that your reading comprehension is so easily challenged". Don't apologize if you don't mean it, although your wanton making fun of people with different capacities is noted. It's funny that you accused me of being rude for simply splitting paragraphs while you are ridiculing my reading comprehension. Try reading the civility policy.

I already explained to you about the exceptions mentioned in WP:TALKO. If you insist in only highlighting a portion of it to your personal preference, ignoring the rest, what can I say. We can agree that we disagree. Thanks for using paragraphs this time. Have fun editing. Cheers! Thinker78 (talk) 01:22, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Re-read what I wrote. Re-read the guideline. Your preferences do not fall under the exceptions. I am not making fun of you; I am informing you that you are violating the guideline you are citing. Yes, I am sorry to have to point out a problem you are making evident. For all I know, your contributions in article space are excellent, and I have not looked at your other talk-space edits to see whether you make a habit of this disrespect for other editors or whether I happened to trigger it by posting on a complex issue, but you seem to be under a misapprehension that talk space posts must conform to your narrow preferences. They don't have to; meddling with them is rude; don't do it again. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:34, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Thinker78:

• The Harvard Library guide you linked was written by bureaucrats, for bureaucrats writing bureaucratic stuff. Try instead looking at Harvard's guides for academic writing linked at https://writingproject.fas.harvard.edu/pages/gen-ed-writing-guides, wherein you'll find no mindless numeric formulas, because good writing doesn't come from formulas.
• And if you somehow think that paragraph breaks are something you can insert into others' writing without affecting its import, you really have no idea how to write at all, no matter how much research on copyediting paragraphs you feel you've done. The only way to learn to write is to write; you can't "research" it, and you certainly won't learn it from the kinds of places you've been looking at, such as https://www.masterclass.com ("GAIN NEW SKILLS IN 10 MINUTES").
• Anyway, it doesn't matter, because other people's stylistic choices are none of your fucking business. A few years ago, you changed the advice at TPG [2] from there is no need to correct others' spelling errors, grammar, etc., and doing so can be quite irritating --> ... doing so can be irritating, but I'm here to tell you that even with quite in there it was an understatement. (I've added quite back.) If I see you tampering with others' posts again I'll have you at ANI so fast it'll make your head spin. You have been warned.

EEng 18:24, 30 October 2022 (UTC)