Talk:Amalek

Why was my edit reverted?

I added: No reference to Amalek or the Amalekites has ever been found outside Biblical or Biblical-based sources; it is therefore unclear whether such a nation ever really existed. to the lead section. I was looking for exactly that information and had to read almost the entire article before I finally stumbled upon it in the section called "Alternative theories of origins", with which this information is not connected at all. This obviously is important information that shouldn't be buried somewhere halfway down the page. Why was this edit reverted without even a reason for the revert given? This article treats Biblical myths as if they were true when there is no evidence at all to support that. 81.206.240.225 (talk) 17:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the possibility that the whole narrative around Amelelites is sheer invention and there were never such people at all is insufficiently prominent. I put the sole reference to it in some years ago and it was in its own section marked "Historicity" but someone moved it to "Alternative theories of origin" where it doesn't belong, you are right. I will put it back.Smeat75 (talk) 18:32, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. 81.206.240.225 (talk) 19:43, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I still think there should be some kind of mention of this in the lead section, but putting in this extra heading is a big improvement for the article. 81.206.240.225 (talk) 19:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Biblically one-sidedness?

Why is this article almost exclusively pro-Judeo-Christian viewpoint? The Muslims and Arabs have had a rich history telling of the Amalekite people and their origins from ʿImliq bin Laudh bin Iram bin Sam bin Nuh. Palmyrans, the Pharaohs of Egypt even the fair-skinned Berbers of North Africa who were kicked out of Kanaan by Joshua, as well as the former inhabitants of Yathrib, were very well known to have Amalekite origin. One could even argue that the reason for "Edom" being labeled as the procreator of the Amalekite race could be due to a typo between the daleth (ד) in the name of "Edom" (אדם) and the resh (ר) in "Aram" (ארם), but that is beside the point. Point being, this article is completely biased and needs changing or perhaps someone could simply create a new article for the Islamic viewpoint.--MuslimKnight786 (talk) 22:14, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

lede far tamer than the text and the Torah

@Dur Godiva: Would you agree that the current lede is a gross understatement, inconsistent with the Torah and other sources and inconsistent with the way the rest of this article reads:

Amalek ... was a nation described in the Hebrew Bible as a staunch enemy of the Israelites.

What can we say in the lede that seems more representative of the Torah?

Amalek ... was a nation that Yahweh ordered destroyed utterly, though a few were spared, angering Yahweh.

??? I've changed the text to this. Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 08:38, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Do They still exist today?

Do the Amalekites still exist today, or have any descendants today, or are they all gone now? Splashen (talk) 01:30, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

According to some Israeli politicians and rabbis the Palestinians are Amaleks. // Liftarn (talk) 07:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Please see reply and rationale for edits within "Religious and modern scholarly discussion" below. Let me know if you'd like to discuss. Thanks! Mstraney (talk) 15:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Modern references

Can we have a section on modern references to Amalek 86.5.202.27 (talk) 04:32, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Religious and modern scholarly discussion

Removing "Some rabbis think that the Palestinians are the Amaleks" [1], which the source does not appear to support. I believe using some in this manner may be considered weasel words, and if relevant and the people saying it are significant, then those people should be named. The 2004 New Yorker article gives quotes mentioning Amalekites from right-wing Israelis: Benzi Lieberman,Council of Settlements Chairman, and Moshe Feiglin, a Likud politician and Effie Eitam, National Religious Party member. None of these are said to be rabbis, unless this is original research or a misreading perhaps. The article author states Rabbi Samson drew on the bible and saw heroes as warriors and killers and gives a quote from the Talmud, but does not mention the Amalekites or express any view that he thought the "Palestinians are the Amaleks". The next paragraph says "Some settler leaders", not rabbis and then appears to give right wing politicians as examples. Please let me know if this is incorrect, and this source is germaine to "Religious and modern scholarly discussion". Below are the 3 relevant paragraphs excerpted from the source for ease of review (article is VERY long, but Amalekite is mentioned only in the 2nd paragraphs below, which only mentions rabbis think the Amalekites no longer existed):

Like many ideologues of aggressive settlement, Rabbi Samson drew lessons directly from the Bible, without the moderating influence of two thousand years of rabbinic Judaism. In the Bible, the heroes are warriors and killers; the Talmud, compiled after the destruction of the Temple and the dispersal of the Jews, asks, “Who is a hero?” and answers, “He who controls his passions.”

Some settler leaders see in the Palestinians the modern-day incarnation of the Amalekites, a mysterious Canaanite tribe that the Bible calls Israel’s eternal enemy. In the Book of Exodus, the Amalekites attacked the Children of Israel on their journey to the land of Israel. For this sin, God damned the Amalekites, commanding the Jews to wage a holy war to exterminate them. This is perhaps the most widely ignored command in the Bible. The rabbis who shaped Judaism could barely bring themselves to endorse the death penalty for murder, much less endorse genocide, and they ruled that the Amalekites no longer existed. But Moshe Feiglin, the Likud activist, told me, “The Arabs engage in typical Amalek behavior. I can’t prove this genetically, but this is the behavior of Amalek.” When I asked Benzi Lieberman, the chairman of the council of settlements—the umbrella group of all settlements in the West Bank and Gaza—if he thought the Amalekites existed today, he said, “The Palestinians are Amalek!” Lieberman went on, “We will destroy them. We won’t kill them all. But we will destroy their ability to think as a nation. We will destroy Palestinian nationalism.”

I heard similar talk from Effie Eitam, a hard-edged former general who leads the National Religious Party, a coalition partner in Sharon’s government. Eitam, who is Sharon’s housing minister, said, “I don’t call these people animals. These are creatures who came out of the depths of darkness. It is not by chance that the State of Israel got the mission to pave the way for the rest of the world, to militarily get rid of these dark forces.” Eitam told me that he believes there are innocent men among the Palestinians, but that they are collectively guilty. “We will have to kill them all,” he said. “I know it’s not very diplomatic. I don’t mean all the Palestinians, but the ones with evil in their heads. Not only blood on their hands but evil in their heads. They are contaminating the hearts and minds of the next generation of Palestinians.” Mstraney (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

One paper from the relatively obscure Rabbi Hess, should not be given undue weight compared to Thomas Aquinas and Momainades regarding "Religious and modern scholarly discussion". Mstraney (talk) 12:58, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I have revised to reflect that both sources state "rabbis generally agree that Amalek no longer exists, and that references to it do not provide a justification for attacking anyone."[2]1

and "The rabbis who shaped Judaism could barely bring themselves to endorse the death penalty for murder, much less endorse genocide, and they ruled that the Amalekites no longer existed."[3]2

and to reflect that a few Israeli politicians and scholars have compared Palestinians to Amaleks as discussed in the articles being used as sources. It does not seem appropriate to omit that both of these articles give the consensus and generally held position that Amaleks no longer exist. Mstraney (talk) 13:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I cannot find support for stating "scholars" from either article, so I am using "extremist" per the Mother Jones article: "Nevertheless, Jacobs said that it remains common for Israeli extremists to view Palestinians as modern-day Amalekites. In 1980, the Rabbi Israel Hess wrote an article that used the story of Amalek to justify wiping out Palestinians." Mstraney (talk) 13:39, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

After a thorough reread of both, "Rabbis" nor "Scholars" are not mentioned as regarding Amalekites as still existing or as the Palestinians. Nor are multiple rabbis given in either article that state that Amalekites are Palestinians (the New Yorker article has none, and the Mother Jones article has one). We cannot do original research or synthesis to say something not claimed in the original sources. Therefore it appears that either "Extremists" (Mother Jones") or "Settler Leaders" (New Yorker) are the appropriate terms supported by each article. (see source excerpts in my 13:39 15 November and 18:42 14 November replies above). Please let me know if you have any thoughts. Mstraney (talk) 17:13, 15 November 2023 (UTC)