Talk:Causes of gender incongruence

Why the Use of FtM and MtF?

I noticed this page makes frequent use of the abbreviations FtM and MtF. Why is this? From what I understand these terms are more casual, slang terms that shouldn't be used in an article about science, or even really on an encyclopedia. They also seem to be falling out of use generally. Would anyone be against me editing to remove them and use better language?

Sudonymous (talk) 02:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Simply refer to the kind of people traditionally known as MtF's as "trans women". Also, please note that trans women contrast with cis women, not real women, biological females, or women-born-women. Georgia guy (talk) 02:31, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

There is no grounds for a blanket change, although it's possible there are some where it isn't needed. However, we need to stick to the terminology of the sources. "Transsexual" (which "MtF" often appears next to) is a smaller set than "transgender", referring specifically in these sources to those who sought medical transition and surgery. And "MtF" does appear in many of the sources. How common it is in everyday discourse does not matter as this is a science article which uses more technical terms when the sources do. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:21, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I haven't heard of them falling out of usage, but I think these terms are more informative than trans woman and trans man. People who are unfamiliar with the terms may think trans woman means ftm because afab who is trans or trans man means mtf because amab who is trans, even well intentioned people. There was a twitter meme a while ago based on this https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/a1fv1o/transmenarenotwomen/ mtf makes it clear they are born male and transitoning to female and vice versa for ftms MaitreyaVaruna (talk) 16:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

It also covers more of the "spectrum" (to put it somehow) of transition, e.g. transmasculine and transfeminine individuals that identify outside of the gender binary in cases like this. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 16:46, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

@A. C. Santacruz I think MtX and FtX are the preferred terms for nonbinary people, but yes mtf is still a better term for an amab enby than trans woman MaitreyaVaruna (changing name to Immanuelle) please tag me (talk) 06:53, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

It is cited directly from the sources used, i think. Cactus Ronin (talk) 21:06, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 July 2023

There might be a formatting error on the page. To fix it, I believe the line

<!--Start transclusion target, to transclude content into [[Transsexual]], [[Transgender]], etc--> [[Twin studies|Studies conducted on twins]] suggest that there are likely genetic causes of gender incongruence, although the precise genes involved are not known or fully understood.

should have an enter included after "-->". But maybe I am mistaken and this is intentional.Appelstr000p (talk) 10:17, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:49, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Parenting section

An earlier version of this article had contributions by myself under the "parenting" section. I believe this section should be renamed "Social hypotheses" or something like that. One issue is that the present discussion is not actually relevant to causes of gender incongruence. For example, the boys raised in a female role are not actually discussing causes of gender dysphoria, it simply discusses typical boys who were raised as girls, some of whom retained a female identity. Many of them probably retained a female identity because it was simply easier (as they had their genitals removed at birth). From what we know about all of these cases is that they were very masculine. It is not exactly evidence of socialization into being transgender. I am somewhat supportive of entirely removing that section of content, and it can be re-added with sources that are actually relevant to gender dysphoria. For the most part, social theories of gender dysphoria tend to come from the likes of Kenneth Zucker (regarding prepubescent dysphoria) which could be discussed and critiqued. Also his mentor Richard Green's theories are important and controversial. It may even be best to distinguish prepubescent onset vs adolescent onset under different headings. Zenomonoz (talk) 09:07, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Intro?

The intro currently states The most studied factors are biological, especially brain structure differences with relation to biology and sexual orientation. Environmental factors have also been proposed. Is this actually true? I would say the most studied factors would be the psychoanalytic explanations for gender incongruence through the 1970s-1990s which largely came up short. Biological research into gender dysphoria has barely scratched the surface. It gives the false impression that all the focus is on biology and social environment has been ignored. Also note Environmental factors have also been proposed is probably not clear, given environmental factors also include the non-social environment (such as prenatal environment). This probably needs work or trimming? Zenomonoz (talk) 11:11, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Seems likely. This probably needs to be elaborated upon better to show this shift and to be more historically accurate. Crossroads ^-talk- 18:03, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Hmm yes I think I'll have to do a bit of reading to find some better sources. It's probably best to change the intro since the body does not state 'The most studied factors are biological'. Zenomonoz (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Some sources to use

Here are a few chapters from Gender Dysphoria and Disorders of Sex Development which editors can use:

• Sex Differentiation: Organizing Effects of Sex Hormones: https://rdcu.be/dkOR1
• Genetic Aspects of Gender Identity Development and Gender Dysphoria: https://rdcu.be/dkOSo
• Gender Identity Development: A Biopsychosocial Perspective: https://rdcu.be/dkOSE

Zenomonoz (talk) 05:06, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 December 2023

The “trans”woman brain is NOT closer to “cis”gender women than “cis”gender men.

Evidence source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/ 184.97.75.129 (talk) 16:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)