Talk:Yoga in Britain
 | Yoga in Britain has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: January 5, 2020. (Reviewed version). |
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- This review is transcluded from Talk:Yoga in Britain/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Freeknowledgecreator (talk · contribs) 05:12, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
I am willing to review the article. Initial comments first.
The article begins, "Yoga in Britain is the practice of yoga, especially yoga as exercise consisting mainly of the postures called asanas, in Britain, beginning early in the 20th century." If possible that opening sentence should be rewritten to avoid the element of tautology, the unnecessary (since self-evident) defining of "Yoga in Britain" as "the practice of yoga...in Britain". For purposes of comparison, Yoga in the United States begins with, "Yoga in the United States has a long history, foreshadowed in the 19th century by the philosophers Ralph Waldo Emerson, whose poem "Brahma" is a statement of the Hindu philosophy behind Yoga, and Henry David Thoreau, and starting in earnest with the Hindu leader Vivekananda's visit from India in 1893; he presented yoga as a spiritual path without postures (asanas), very different from modern yoga as exercise", rather than with a tautology defining Yoga in the United States as the practice of yoga in the United States. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 05:12, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- Rewritten.
- I like most of what you have done here, except that I think that in removing tautology from the lead you have cut out some relevant information as well ("consisting mainly of the postures called asanas, in Britain"). Do you think you could work that back in? Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 11:06, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Done.
- Thank you, but the first sentence of the lead now reads, "The practice of yoga in Britain began early in the 20th century with asanas under other names with exercise systems for women, and became popular under the name yoga from the 1960s". That's a little confusing, and it's questionable on a grammatical level. Someone reading it might be confused whether it was the practice of yoga that began early in the 20th century under other names or whether it was asanas that were under other names (I am). Please clarify or rewrite that. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 06:46, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Done.
- The lead currently begins, "The practice of asana-based yoga in Britain began early in the 20th century under other names with exercise systems for women, and became popular under the name yoga from the 1960s." I'm sorry, I still think that's confusing. The problem isn't simply that "asana" isn't defined for readers, or that it isn't clear what "asana-based" means. The grammar of that sentence looks wrong - reading it, it isn't even clear what the "under other names" part is referring to. Please try rewriting it again. That sentence looks as though it is trying to say too much at once. Might help to split it up into two or more sentences. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 23:33, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- Rewritten as a new paragraph.
- The lead currently begins, "The practice of asana-based yoga in Britain began early in the 20th century under other names with exercise systems for women, and became popular under the name yoga from the 1960s." I'm sorry, I still think that's confusing. The problem isn't simply that "asana" isn't defined for readers, or that it isn't clear what "asana-based" means. The grammar of that sentence looks wrong - reading it, it isn't even clear what the "under other names" part is referring to. Please try rewriting it again. That sentence looks as though it is trying to say too much at once. Might help to split it up into two or more sentences. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 23:33, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- Done.
- Thank you, but the first sentence of the lead now reads, "The practice of yoga in Britain began early in the 20th century with asanas under other names with exercise systems for women, and became popular under the name yoga from the 1960s". That's a little confusing, and it's questionable on a grammatical level. Someone reading it might be confused whether it was the practice of yoga that began early in the 20th century under other names or whether it was asanas that were under other names (I am). Please clarify or rewrite that. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 06:46, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Done.
- I like most of what you have done here, except that I think that in removing tautology from the lead you have cut out some relevant information as well ("consisting mainly of the postures called asanas, in Britain"). Do you think you could work that back in? Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 11:06, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Rewritten.
More will follow. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 05:12, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- I've just been informed that Chiswick Chap is not currently active on Wikipedia. The review will be placed on hold. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 08:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- Freeknowledgecreator - I'm back. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:31, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hello, Chiswick Chap. Good to see you back. The review can now proceed. You can expect more detailed comments within a day or so. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 00:19, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Freeknowledgecreator - I'm back. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:31, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- The leads states, " Iyengar Yoga was the first of the major yoga brands to arrive, with classes taught from 1970, initially under the aegis of the Inner London Education Authority." Consider that "aegis" is a comparatively obscure term and that many readers may not know what it means. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 03:11, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Fair enough, removed.
- The leads states, " Iyengar Yoga was the first of the major yoga brands to arrive, with classes taught from 1970, initially under the aegis of the Inner London Education Authority." Consider that "aegis" is a comparatively obscure term and that many readers may not know what it means. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 03:11, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- The leads states, "In the 21st century, yoga became so widespread as to become an "unremarkable" part of daily life, and many new types of yoga appeared, from aerial yoga to doga (with dogs) and on paddleboards." I realize that what "with dogs" means may seem self-evident in this context, but I would still change "with dogs" to "yoga with dogs". Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 03:12, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Done.
- The leads states, "In the 21st century, yoga became so widespread as to become an "unremarkable" part of daily life, and many new types of yoga appeared, from aerial yoga to doga (with dogs) and on paddleboards." I realize that what "with dogs" means may seem self-evident in this context, but I would still change "with dogs" to "yoga with dogs". Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 03:12, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- The article states, "The yoga scholar Mark Singleton notes that early British travellers who visited India considered yogins to be unpleasant, vagrants at best and libertines at worst." Readers are likely to be able to guess that "yogins" means practitioners of yoga. However, the article should make this explicit.
- This is as you say readily guessable; it is also wikilinked if anyone remains uncertain. We have to strike a reasonable balance and I'd say we have it in this case."
- Notice the word likely in my comment ("Readers are likely to be able to guess that "yogins" means practitioners of yoga"). "Likely" to be able to guess does not mean that they will necessarily be able to guess correctly. The more basic point is that readers should not have to guess at all. I do not see this as a case where the article has to balance something with something else. Rather it is a case where the article has accommodate readers who simply do not understand yoga. It should be possible to explain "yogin" with only a small, short addition. Such an addition would benefit the article without creating any kind of problem. You are no doubt very familiar with yoga; the reader approaching the article for the first time almost certainly is not. Remember that nothing is easier for someone familiar with a subject than to under-estimate the difficulty someone not so well informed will have in understanding it. Please reconsider. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 10:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Reworded.
- Thank you. It would seem like a good idea to link "yoga practitioners" to Yogi. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 10:59, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Linked.
- Thank you. It would seem like a good idea to link "yoga practitioners" to Yogi. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 10:59, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Reworded.
- Notice the word likely in my comment ("Readers are likely to be able to guess that "yogins" means practitioners of yoga"). "Likely" to be able to guess does not mean that they will necessarily be able to guess correctly. The more basic point is that readers should not have to guess at all. I do not see this as a case where the article has to balance something with something else. Rather it is a case where the article has accommodate readers who simply do not understand yoga. It should be possible to explain "yogin" with only a small, short addition. Such an addition would benefit the article without creating any kind of problem. You are no doubt very familiar with yoga; the reader approaching the article for the first time almost certainly is not. Remember that nothing is easier for someone familiar with a subject than to under-estimate the difficulty someone not so well informed will have in understanding it. Please reconsider. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 10:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- This is as you say readily guessable; it is also wikilinked if anyone remains uncertain. We have to strike a reasonable balance and I'd say we have it in this case."
- The article states, "The yoga scholar Mark Singleton notes that early British travellers who visited India considered yogins to be unpleasant, vagrants at best and libertines at worst." Readers are likely to be able to guess that "yogins" means practitioners of yoga. However, the article should make this explicit.
- The article states, "Similarly, John Fryer in his 1698 A New Account of East-India and Persia recorded a "Jougie" who had a gold ring in his "Virile Member" to keep him from sexual activity..." Same story here. Readers can probably guess that "Virile Member" means penis, but the article should be explicit that "Virile Member" equals "penis" and leave no room for doubt. WP:NOTCENSORED should be kept in mind. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 04:24, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Glossed, or should I say lacquered the knacker perhaps.
- The article states, "Similarly, John Fryer in his 1698 A New Account of East-India and Persia recorded a "Jougie" who had a gold ring in his "Virile Member" to keep him from sexual activity..." Same story here. Readers can probably guess that "Virile Member" means penis, but the article should be explicit that "Virile Member" equals "penis" and leave no room for doubt. WP:NOTCENSORED should be kept in mind. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 04:24, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- More soon. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 04:25, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- The article states, "In the 1930s, the yoga scholar Mark Singleton notes that Health and Strength magazine ran two kinds of article relating to yoga. The first spoke of "yoga" but without mentioning asanas; the second, which it did not call "yoga", described exercise routines for women, including postures now called Trikonasana, Paschimottanasana, Salabhasana, and so on." I find that questionable on a grammatical level. I would have written it instead as, "In the 1930s, the yoga scholar Mark Singleton notes that Health and Strength magazine ran two kinds of article relating to yoga. The first spoke of "yoga" but without mentioning asanas; the second described exercise routines, which it did not call "yoga", for women, including postures now called Trikonasana, Paschimottanasana, Salabhasana, and so on." Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 06:50, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Done.
- Thanks. Lead still needs improvement. See above. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 08:28, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- Addressed above.
- Thanks. Lead still needs improvement. See above. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 08:28, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- The article states, "Since the ILEA had insisted that classes should be free of yoga philosophy, Iyengar was careful to encourage students to follow their own religious traditions, rather than trying to follow his own family's Visistadvaita, a qualified non-dualism within Hinduism." "Hinduism" should be linked. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 08:29, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- Linked.
- The article states, "Since the ILEA had insisted that classes should be free of yoga philosophy, Iyengar was careful to encourage students to follow their own religious traditions, rather than trying to follow his own family's Visistadvaita, a qualified non-dualism within Hinduism." "Hinduism" should be linked. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 08:29, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- The article states, " Richard Hittleman was brought in from the United States for want of a suitable British presenter, and the model and ballerina Lyn Marshall was chosen to demonstrate the poses under his instruction, on the grounds that "any reasonably fit person" could benefit from yoga, even though as Newcombe remarks Marshall was, as a trained dancer, hardly average." Perhaps that sentence should be divided into two separate sentences (with the division after "presenter")? Just a suggestion. It definitely needs added punctuation (commas immediately before and after, "as Newcombe remarks"). Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 08:31, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- Both done.
- The article states, " Richard Hittleman was brought in from the United States for want of a suitable British presenter, and the model and ballerina Lyn Marshall was chosen to demonstrate the poses under his instruction, on the grounds that "any reasonably fit person" could benefit from yoga, even though as Newcombe remarks Marshall was, as a trained dancer, hardly average." Perhaps that sentence should be divided into two separate sentences (with the division after "presenter")? Just a suggestion. It definitely needs added punctuation (commas immediately before and after, "as Newcombe remarks"). Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 08:31, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- The article states, "With the rise of feminism and being well-educated, middle-class British women were starting to resent being housewives..." I'm not sure that's grammatical ("being well-educated" could be replaced with other text that covers the same territory). Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 08:33, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- Reworded.
- The article states, "With the rise of feminism and being well-educated, middle-class British women were starting to resent being housewives..." I'm not sure that's grammatical ("being well-educated" could be replaced with other text that covers the same territory). Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 08:33, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
More
[edit]- More soon. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 08:33, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- "Adult education funding was cut sharply in the 1980s when Margaret Thatcher was prime minister, and yoga was forced to move from public to private classes." That seems a little awkward - one cannot properly speak of "yoga" being forced to do something (for example, moving from one place to another) as though it were a person. Could you reword it? Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 09:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- Done.
- "Adult education funding was cut sharply in the 1980s when Margaret Thatcher was prime minister, and yoga was forced to move from public to private classes." That seems a little awkward - one cannot properly speak of "yoga" being forced to do something (for example, moving from one place to another) as though it were a person. Could you reword it? Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 09:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- 1. The first good article criterion is that the article be well-written. The article is generally, but not consistently, well-written. I think the article can meet this criterion with some further changes. As I've indicated above, the lead still needs further work. The first sentence in particular needs revising. It could probably be broken up into two or more separate sentences. The lead in general would benefit from being fleshed out with more detail.
- Rewrote the first sentence.
- Extended the lead.
- 1. The first good article criterion is that the article be well-written. The article is generally, but not consistently, well-written. I think the article can meet this criterion with some further changes. As I've indicated above, the lead still needs further work. The first sentence in particular needs revising. It could probably be broken up into two or more separate sentences. The lead in general would benefit from being fleshed out with more detail.
- 2. The second good article criterion is that the article be "Verifiable with no original research". I am satisfied that the article meets this standard, since everything seems carefully cited.
- Noted.
- 2. The second good article criterion is that the article be "Verifiable with no original research". I am satisfied that the article meets this standard, since everything seems carefully cited.
- 3. The third good article criterion is that the article be "Broad in its coverage". Although the article is quite short, I still think it basically meets this standard.
- Noted.
- 3. The third good article criterion is that the article be "Broad in its coverage". Although the article is quite short, I still think it basically meets this standard.
- 4. The fourth good article criterion is that the article be, "Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each." I think the article meets this standard.
- Noted.
- 4. The fourth good article criterion is that the article be, "Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each." I think the article meets this standard.
- 5. The fifth good article criterion is that the article be, "Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute." The article meets this standard.
- Noted.
- 5. The fifth good article criterion is that the article be, "Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute." The article meets this standard.
- 6. The sixth good article criterion is that the article be, "Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio". The article meets this standard.
- Noted.
- 6. The sixth good article criterion is that the article be, "Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio". The article meets this standard.
- I am not willing to pass the article immediately. I can pass it if more work is done to ensure the article meets the first good article criterion. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 09:59, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- Freeknowledgecreator: I believe all the points have now been addressed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:49, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry for the delay in responding immediately. I will respond soon. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 04:20, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think your recent edits have improved the lead. However, I also believe the first sentence of the lead ("Yoga consisting mainly of postures (asanas) arrived in Britain early in the 20th century, though the first classes that contained asanas were described as exercise systems for women rather than yoga") needs added punctuation - commas after the first "Yoga" and before "arrived". Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:19, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Done.
- Freeknowledgecreator: I believe all the points have now been addressed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:49, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- I am not willing to pass the article immediately. I can pass it if more work is done to ensure the article meets the first good article criterion. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 09:59, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- The lead states, "Before the 20th century, yoga was known only from the reports of travellers to India, which painted a picture of deceptive vagabonds pretending to be pious." I wouldn't have written that sentence that way - I would have said "described" rather than "painted a picture". Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:21, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Done.
- The lead states, "Before the 20th century, yoga was known only from the reports of travellers to India, which painted a picture of deceptive vagabonds pretending to be pious." I wouldn't have written that sentence that way - I would have said "described" rather than "painted a picture". Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:21, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- The entire phrase "doga (yoga with dogs)" is linked to Doga. I'd say only "doga" needs to be linked to Doga. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:22, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Done.
- The entire phrase "doga (yoga with dogs)" is linked to Doga. I'd say only "doga" needs to be linked to Doga. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:22, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Moving on from the lead, the section "Before the Second World War" states, "He claimed to have attained the spiritual state of dhyana, meaning the seventh stage on the path to enlightenment defined by Patanjali." The word "meaning" isn't necessary there. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Done.
- Moving on from the lead, the section "Before the Second World War" states, "He claimed to have attained the spiritual state of dhyana, meaning the seventh stage on the path to enlightenment defined by Patanjali." The word "meaning" isn't necessary there. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Another sentence I would have written differently, "The first spoke of "yoga" but without mentioning asanas; the second, which it did not call "yoga", for women, including postures now called Trikonasana, Paschimottanasana, Salabhasana, and so on". I'd suggest, "The first spoke of "yoga" but without mentioning asanas; the second, which it did not call "yoga", for women, including postures such as those now called Trikonasana, Paschimottanasana, and Salabhasana." Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Done.
- Another sentence I would have written differently, "The first spoke of "yoga" but without mentioning asanas; the second, which it did not call "yoga", for women, including postures now called Trikonasana, Paschimottanasana, Salabhasana, and so on". I'd suggest, "The first spoke of "yoga" but without mentioning asanas; the second, which it did not call "yoga", for women, including postures such as those now called Trikonasana, Paschimottanasana, and Salabhasana." Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- "In July 1935, the magazine featured Adonia Wallace demonstrating the "Exercises Which Gave Me Fame"[13] as "The Girl with the Perfect Figure",[13] with the poses now called Rajakapotasana, Urdhva Dhanurasana, Natarajasana and Eka Pada Viparita Dandasana." I'd add an additional comma after "Natarajasana". Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:26, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Done.
- "In July 1935, the magazine featured Adonia Wallace demonstrating the "Exercises Which Gave Me Fame"[13] as "The Girl with the Perfect Figure",[13] with the poses now called Rajakapotasana, Urdhva Dhanurasana, Natarajasana and Eka Pada Viparita Dandasana." I'd add an additional comma after "Natarajasana". Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:26, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- "The ILEA's Peter McIntosh watched some classes taught by B. K. S. Iyengar, was impressed by his book Light on Yoga". The article should give the original date of publication of Light on Yoga in parentheses immediately following the title, thus Light on Yoga (1966). Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:28, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Done.
- "The ILEA's Peter McIntosh watched some classes taught by B. K. S. Iyengar, was impressed by his book Light on Yoga". The article should give the original date of publication of Light on Yoga in parentheses immediately following the title, thus Light on Yoga (1966). Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:28, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Following your edits to improve the lead, I am content to pass the article. I'll wait for a short time before doing so, however, so that you can address the remaining points I've noted. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:30, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks.
- Passed article. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 03:37, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks.
- Following your edits to improve the lead, I am content to pass the article. I'll wait for a short time before doing so, however, so that you can address the remaining points I've noted. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 12:30, 4 January 2020 (UTC)