Talk:Estelada

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Heraldry and vexillology

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Untitled

I feel this link in See also section is not related to Estelada:

List of Catalan language poets

I propose removing the link (and the section, as this link is its unique content).--Pere prlpz 18:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

lead

Hi Carles.

What you say makes sense, but, again there is the topic of symbolizing "the wish" of who? We certainly need a subject for this sentence.

I personally consider people waving this flag outside Catalonia as "Catalan nationalists" in the Fusterian sense. Some of them will tell you they have no problem in identifying themselves as Catalans, and most of them will have no problem in being identified with Catalan nationalism. Therefore, I'd say that "waved by Catalan nationalists" is ok, but that is, I know, kinda troublesome. Therefore, if you have a better subject, please go ahead. But I think we do need a subject for this sentence, because the estelada is waved by people, so who are they? Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 16:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it was me to add this "wish", and now it makes things more complicated! :D No, I'm joking, it should be easy to find a solution. You say, we need a subject for the wish. I am not sure about that, since to me it seems implicit that it will be the wish of those who raise the flag, whoever they are. We could write some tautology but it would be awful: "symbolizes the wish of Catalan independentism for political independence of...". In fact, many people non-necessarily Catalan (not even in the Fusterian sense of the word) could show support for the Catalan independentism claims, for instance, people with analogous demands in other countries (you know what I mean, other so-called "stateless nations") as a sign of solidarity. Therefore, I think it is better to leave it in this impersonal way, where it is understood that the wish will be of those who one happen to express it. Otherwise, if you still find it to odd, I have no problem in removing the word "wish" again. --Carles Noguera (talk) 16:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhh...I understand your point, but the thing is that, as it is now, an impersonal "wish", then it tends to look like an unanimous wish or something, like if it was the wish "of Catalonia" (very old, yet still very effective nationalist trick, this one of making territories having "wishes", emotions etc :P). But the thing is that "wishes" are of people, and not everybody wishes the same, so that is why I would like it to be more precised.

Of course there will be other people not Catalan nationalists waving this flag (I am thinking of Basque nationalists and others in Spain) but, speaking in terms of wp:due I think it is safe to mention Catalan nationalists, huh?

Probably we are getting messed because the "symbolizes the wish" formula is not a good starting point. We could re-work it into something like "estelada is a flag variant from the Senyera, typically used by Catalan nationalists to express their support for independence of Catalonia and the so-called Catalan Countries" or something like that... Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 17:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, now I got your point. In fact, I didn't intend to play that old nationalist trick (otherwise I would have written "it simbolizes the wish of Catalonia for independence" which would be an unacceptable biased sentence). So, if you want to be precise, the last sentence you have proposed is good enough and I can buy it (well, to be honest I do not completely agree with the need for always adding "the so-called" in front of "Catalan Countries", but now forget about this and write it as you wish). Hopefully we have a new consensus here and we can work in more controversial articles ;) Per cert, és veritat que la cosa s'està cremant una mica, ahir vaig veure'n un parell que perdien els nervis :(. --Carles Noguera (talk) 07:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well for the "so-called" thing is not intended as anything derogatory or something like that. There are two translations for this one, "presunt" o "suposat" (not intended) and the more literal (and intended) "així anomenats". The reason for the així anomenats is because, from all those so-called countries, only Andorra is a country in the most common English sense. Note that, when the original (and, in my opinion, best) Països Catalans term is used, I am not adding that tag. But that is another story and we do not want to open yet another Pandora box, do we?

Oh, dont get me wrong, I didnt mean that you wanted to play that old nationalist trick (with your background, I am expecting from you far more intellectual challenges than those trite ones in the "handbook of nationalism in wikipedia"! ;)

In any case, I am sure that a Logic PhD may agree with me in that "symbolizes the wish" is a bit too lyrical for a so-called (not sure if derogatory now ;) encyclopedia, huh? :P Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 13:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fine. I can agree with the wording as you have left it now. As for the "so-called", I knew that was your intended meaning and I was only afraid of the possibility for many readers to interpret it the other way. Anyway, you have done a good work and I have no more issues right now!--Carles Noguera (talk) 07:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

lefty independentism

I think we could note something like "within Catalan independentism, the estelada is most frequently waved by leftist rather than by the conservatives in this movement, due to the implications of the five pointed star, and its resemblance to the Cuban flag".

That particular wording is pretty awful, I know, but maybe it would be pertinent to note that this is more of an (J)ERC-CUP flag than a CiU (soberanista branch) one.

It is just an idea... Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 16:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, about this I'm not sure. Maybe it is not really a matter of being more or less leftish. Maybe those guys in CIU do not use it so often, because they are not as independentist as others... Anyway, your interpretation would need some source and I am sorry now I cannot provide it. --Carles Noguera (talk) 07:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The use of estelades is not that unfrequent in, for example, CiU youthful branch meetings, but I'd say the more established and/or senior members of this party prefer to stick to the senyera proper. However, I admit that there is a fundamental subjective problem for this addition. If you are fine with it as it is now, I am fine with it, too. I will call it a day for now. I hope I'll see you again in far off places... Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 13:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Related flags

In recent edits the section on related flags has been erased without a previous discussion. I would like to hear good reasons to delete this part, specially because it was claimed that those flags evolved from Estelada. Thanks in advance. --Carles Noguera (talk) 11:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll keep it, but the 'Other Estelades' section makes no sense since most of these flags don't have any direct connection with the catalan Estelada, except depicting a star. Those flags are closer to leftist/comunist ideologies.2.138.128.136 (talk) 01:13, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Aclaration

As the Estelada is not an oficial flag which is the Senyera, it's usually used and made to be used as banner* with the star upside. However if it should be used as flag isn't clear if it should be used as commonly, like the Cuban flag, it's inspiration, or if it should be used with the star on the right, keeping the four pales gules in the heraldic standar* form.

references to heraldic flags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.56.189.0 (talk) 11:42, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another aclaration. The flag cannot be illegal or legal, because never had an oficial recognizement but used as symbolic flag for those catalans aspiring for independence from Spain. The motives to inspire this flag in the Cuban flag was the closest event to the creation of the estelada which was the Succesful Cuban independence. 2.138.128.136 (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Orientation of the star

The graphics of both the blue and the red estellada depict the star with an "upright" position, i.e., one of its five tips points vertically "up". This is also the case with the historic leaflet. However, I get the feeling that all estelladas in current circulation have the star with one tip pointing "left" (see for example all photos in the article). Can this be clarified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hagman (talk • contribs) 20:07, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The orientation of the star is always, like you said pointing to the left/paralel to the short side of the flag (most of the vectorial images of the estelada have the star in a non trational position, but photographies of demonstrations have the star pointing to the pole). --Rockcs (talk) 14:11, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]