Talk:Load line (electronics)

2012

this is a small circuit but we can learn more things about linear & non-liner resistance. what is load line?load+line as electric ko load and splay to line — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.194.49.65 (talk) 04:36, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

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Transistor load line

The section and the figure are very poor. The transistor load line is important for the topic, so I don't want to delete it, but I don't want the reader to believe the section is anywhere near accurate. The text depends on the figure, but the figure shows that saturation cannot be anywhere near V_CE=0. Glrx (talk) 05:26, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Could you not just fix the text? I wonder if I can edit the figure - what would you like to see changed in the figure? --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:30, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Looking at my old textbook, now I see the problem - the transistor curves start off at the left in saturation and then head out as roughly constant current lines, but the figure marks the point crossing Vce=0 as saturation. I wonder if I have a .PNG editor? I could take off the word "saturation" where the load line crosses Vce=0. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:23, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

After getting a bunch of propeller-head error messages when I tried to upload an .SVG, here is a (non-editable?) .PNG. How does this look? ---Wtshymanski (talk) 21:21, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

File:Draft for review BJT CE load line.png

For discussion.

After spending the last hour learning all about the "Black rectangle (Flowed Text bug)", I've put a revised figure on the page. (Hint: using Inkscape as designed, you still produce files that are garbage when uploaded to Commons. You have to use the XML editor to manually remove any flowed text boxes that you've accidentally created, but can't see in Inkscape. With such a convenient work around, no wonder this bug hasn't been fixed in 7 years.) Drat, I've used a san-serif font and the previous illustration uses a serif. More fixing needed. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:43, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

I fixed some of the text but didn't have time to work on the rest (which needed a better figure) or the figure itself. The issue with the axes confuses both the saturation and the cutoff issues. The points on the axes are the load line's open-circuit voltage and short-circuit current. There's no guarantee the transistor can reach either of those points. As you've noticed, V_CE is far away from the axis. The cutoff voltage can be much closer to the axis. I'd like the figure to show I_b=0 and be visibly above the voltage axis to illustrate that possibility. The collector leakage current for Ge signal transistor (2N1304) was around 6 μA; that would be a 0.06 V drop with a 10 kΩ load resistor. Si signal transistor are better (2N708 is 25 nA). The leakage is worse at higher temps. The load line and transistor VICs don't look right: either the figure's transistor saturation voltage is unreasonably high or V_CC is unreasonably low. I'd like the transistor curves to display an Early voltage slope. See 2n3904 curves at http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/trace/NPN.CC.html with its compressed left side and Early slope. (That webpage does not show I_b=0, so maybe I should not insist on such a curve. The 2N3904 leakage current would be nanoamperes.)

Yes, Inkscape introduces a number of problems. I've never used it, but I've looked at many of its (verbose) .SVG files. Many people run into the flowed text / black text problem. Font substitutions are also an issue; WM may not have the font and the substituted font, even if it is sans serif, may have much different character spacing. Commons:Help:SVG; esp. § on fallback fonts. The library used to generate PNG files from SVG, librsvg, has many bugs and limitations, but there are few alternatives for WMF. Sadly, making illustrations is difficult, and the tools often get in the way or have steep learning curves. Your SVG illustration has separately placed subscript text, but that should not be done. Inkscape should have a facility to italicize and subscript text within a string using tspan elements. (It can be done with CSS, but I doubt Inkscape allows that approach because it stuffs all its graphic context into per-element style attributes. Illustrations should also avoid text descriptions because they complicate translation.

Glrx (talk) 21:23, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

But this article is about load lines, not the 2N3904 transistor. We already mention an "ideal" transistor in the text, which every prof keeps in the same stock room with the frictionless planes and massless pulleys. It would be far from the purpose of this article to go into the specifics of some random transistor. You notice there's no values on the axes. For illustration of the load line concept, it doesn't matter what the transistor saturation voltage is, and for clarity it's better to show the cureves with some distance to the current axis. I think my redraw of the figure has roughly the proportions of figure 4-16 in my old prof's transistor textbook, though he had one more IB curve shown. He didn't think he needed to show IB=0, either and he had a lot more space than this article has to explain load lines. --Wtshymanski (talk) 23:53, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Unclear wording

"and the voltage at the terminals of the diode must be the same" The same as what? Clearly the voltage at the diodes terminal (in reference to ground) are not the same. Also the voltage across the diode is not the voltage at the terminals. This phrase makes no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:c5:c704:a044:8993:f4e4:6f57:9e3e (talk • contribs) 05:11, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I clarified the wording. More could be added but that's somewhat leading to a textbook approach which is not Wikipedia's style. Johnuniq (talk) 06:53, 2 August 2021 (UTC)