Talk:List of surviving veterans of World War I

This article was nominated for deletion on November 13, 2005. The result of the discussion was keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

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Franz Künstler

Someone keeps changing my correction with respect to German resident Franz Künstler. He is an Hungarian citizen residing in Germany. He served for the Austro-Hungrian forces and later moved to Germany. I can´t tell when he moved to Germany, but I know for sure he kept his Hungarian citizenship. He is the final survivor of the Austro-Hungarian forces.

Okay, but can you prove this? Extremely sexy 22:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I changed it back. The Name "Franz Künstler" is a typical German name, and so, without proof I don't know why it should be changed. Statistician 12.02.2007 1:16 (CET)

I found the following two articles:

http://www.niederstetten.de/aktuell/archiv/archiv01.html "Über den im Jahre 1900 in der Nähe von Temeschwar geborene Ungar berichtet am Montag, 7. August zwischen 18.45 u. 19.45 Uhr die Landesschau unter SWR."

http://www.fnweb.de/archiv/2006/m09/11/me/region/20060911_f0b1154001_24406.html "Geführt werden die Besucher seit nunmehr 30 Jahren von Franz Künstler, dessen Geschichte ebenso interessant erscheint wie die des Museums. Geboren am 24. Juli 1900 in Soost, Ungarn, wurde er gegen Ende des zweiten Weltkrieges aus seiner Heimat vertrieben. Seit 1946 lebt der inzwischen 106-Jährige nun im alten Pfarrhaus direkt am Schloss." The first one says "born Hungarian", but the second one writes that he was dispersed after WWII - like many people with German origin at that time... So, it sounds to me that he is what we call in Germany a "Spätaussiedler" (= people with German origin who come back to Germany after some generation - normally they achieve the German citizenship when they come to Germany). I will do some research. Statistician 12.02.2007 1:28 (CET)

I believe that too - if he was born with that name in Temeschwar in "Siebenbürgen", he is most probably a descendant of the "Siebenbürger Sachsen" who came from Germany some generations before.

I've phoned a woman how works with him. She says that he was born as a German-Hungarian and was dispersed, because he was German. She thinks that he has the German citizenship, but will talk with him to prove that - but that will need some time, because we will have to solve this with letters. Statistician 12.02.2007 13:02 (CET)

I was wondering if Franz Künstler really is the final survivor of the Austro-Hungarian forces. Could it be that he served for the German forces instead, given he is a German-Hungarian? (unsigned comment)

Hungary was a part of Austria-Hungary, and so he fought for Austria-Hungary. What's the problem about that?

Statistician 19.02.2007 3:16 (CET)

Beyond which, since the Empire collapsed by war's end, any other Imperial soldiers surviving would by definition be on that list, but no one else is. That aside, the question doesn't make a lot of sense. Look at WWII, where ethnic Japanese fought for the United States, ethnic Germans fought for the Soviet Union, etc., etc., etc. RGTraynor 20:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I got some news from Frank Künstler - he answered my letter. :) He served at the italian front from March to November 1918.

I also asked him some questions about his nationality: He sees himself as a german and conected to the german nationality. He was an hungarian citizen until 1946. He don't have the german citizenship but is equated with german citizens. Statistician 23.03.2007 2:42 (CET)

Wilfred Baker

This story popped up on the BBC today, but I couldn't find him on the list. Normally I would assume that it's just an unverifiable case, but it seems odd that the BBC would report on that. Any thoughts? Canadian Paul 23:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This just goes to show that we should not assume we know 'all' the remaining WWI vets.

There are two options here: one, his claim is real but overlooked; two, his claim is fake and not scrutinized. Perhaps some of our UK correspondents could do some background-checking for us.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 00:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

On second thoughts, Mr Baker was 'originally from England.' It could very well be he was excluded from the 'Scottish' lists due to that, and from the English lists for not living in England. We have seen that before. However, there remains the chance of a tall-tale as well, though age 106 isn't that tall of a tale to tell. Again, it would be best if a UK correspondent could do some fact-checking for this claim.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 00:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Morning all, he could have been overlooked I suppose. I will keep an eye out for any other obituaries - the national papers here now publish a full obituary for WWI vets, and I would expect The Scotsman would make a note of Scotlands last war veteran dying. Also the Today programme on BBC Radio 4 (for non UK Wikipedians: this is THE national current affairs programme in the UK) now has a short piece on the passing of any WW1 veteran, and they haven't said anything this morning.

The Englishman in Scotland factor shouldn't be a problem as the Royal British Legion keeps tabs on this sort of thing, and they are a UK wide organisation.

If I was to put a bet on it, my hunch is that this is a bit of journalistic licence. But I will keep an eye out, and I will mention him in my next letter to Dennis Goodwin. Thanks. SRwiki 08:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Morning again: I have just found a report from Mr Baker's 106th birthday party at the time over here, where he is described as a WWII veteran - it mentions he joined the navy in 1918, but makes no mention of WWI service, so, I suppose he could have been in training, but he could just as easily have signed up after Nov. 11th. I will see what else I can find. SRwiki 09:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Well: I have to say I distinctly do remember that report on him with indeed no mention of possible WWI involvement at all. Extremely sexy 14:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

There is one big advantage regarding Mr. Baker's service compared to many others on our list: anyone with a 30-year military career likely has a detailed service record that should make the research task straightforward, and the facts relatively easy to confirm. Frankwomble 20:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Is Wilfred alive or dead? If the BBC have said that he is dead, why has he appeared on the "Unverified, but still living" part ot the article? Mithrandir1967

Where and when did the BBC say that wilfred baker had died? (unsigned comment)

Just look at the beginning of this discussion. Extremely sexy 22:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Some overzealous editors see the trees but not the forest...wasting a lot of edits before realizng 'he is dead' and should be on the 2007 deaths list, if anything.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 19:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is perfect, so neither is Robert Douglas Young, right. Extremely sexy 19:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Bart, no-one is perfect EXCEPT Robert Douglas Young, I think that sentence should say. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.110.220 (talk • contribs)

Or it could be No one is perfect, NOT EVEN Robert Douglas Young--Rye1967 19:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly what I meant, dear friends. Extremely sexy 20:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Last I checked, Bart, you went as far as to 'correct' my correct spelling of the Ukrainian claimant, Hryhoriy Nestor, on my TALK page. Wow, what dedication. In fact, since the spelling here is probably incorrect, perhaps you could fix it for me.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 13:58, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Over and done with. Extremely sexy 19:28, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

shouldn't realy have a go at the person who wrote up the bio for wilfred baker as at least they wrote one up and saved everyone else the trouble. by the way ive written up a few bios and im pretty new to this so would be a help if someone could just look 'em over, i'm only 17 but love learning about World War One veterans so thought i'd try and help others learn a bit more, also harsh criticism will makw me cry so leave it out. so far i've done claude choules, william young, john babcock, russell coffey and dwight wilson so if someone could just have a quick check would be appreciated. thanks. (webbmyster)

Webbmyster, first please learn to use capitalization correctly. Second, more disturbing is that judging from the weblog history, YOU are the person who added Wilfred Baker as 'living' to the list when several people repeatedly indicated that he is dead. Making it appear you are defending some anonymous person, when that person is you, is dishonest. Not listening to others is not a positive trait either. Finally, in regards to your threats to cry in response to harsh criticism and you only being 17: many of these WWI veterans you are reading about joined at only age 15. Some had to eat worm-infested cans of food and pick up dead bodies while being shot at. You do them a disservice by suggesting that mere verbal correction (correction of mistakes, not name-calling insults) is enough to make you cry. If you truly want to honor them, I suggest you toughen up a bit there, chap.

Finally, I will offer a KUDOS for starting the extra articles on Choles, Young, but especially Coffey. That you are adding articles for persons outside your home country is a positive character trait.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 13:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I already did just that, dear webmaster. Extremely sexy 23:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

thanks man hope its all good. am trying to do some of the italian and german veterans at the moment so will have some of those up soon, but finding out where and if they served in combat is proving annoying compared to where they were born and now live. (webbmyster)

It's my pleasure though, my dear friend. Extremely sexy 23:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Webbmyster...keep up the good work, and remember that critizism is designed to improve wikipedia, not belittle you...I once worked on an article for three months, only to have it deleted as unneeded. Remember to type out numerals under twenty (write 'three' rather than '3', except in dates). Also, if you type four tildes ~ in a row on the discussion page, it will automatically sign your name and the time like this: Czolgolz 14:50, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

ok man. i know how to talk and what words mean, but my computer doesn't automatically do capitals so i cant be bothered to edit things when i'm just replying to fools who take things to seriously. i respect your work and what you do but you shouldn't have a go at people who obviously aren't as good as you in these areas as yourself for just trying something out. also i didn't write anything on wilfred baker as the only link i've found to anything on him, only works on the pc's at college. cheers to everyone for the positive comments, much appreciated and the help with different bits. Webbmyster 09:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

So I see you bring out the name-calling. It is not for you to tell other people 'not to have a go at it' when you made the mistake, and then tried to hide it. That is unprofessional. Despite trying to sound 'above the fray,' you just sound plain silly. Claiming to be 'not as good' is no excuse: everyone can be better. But if you are 'not as good,' then wouldn't it make sense to listen to those who are better, more experienced, etc.? So either way, you're wrong. Why not just admit it and move on? Is that too much? As for making too much of it, this wouldn't have been anything if you didn't make such a fuss. So, go look in the mirror. "Simon Cowell"→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you from Australia by any chance? Extremely sexy 20:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Auto-updating

I don't mind an autoupdating age thing, but let's be sure that we have it for everyone, not just Australia.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 19:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I already asked that particular contributor, Robert. Extremely sexy 19:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Just make sure the format suits everyone first before making the change to all the other tables. - fchd 21:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the autoupdating format is fine, but as Mr. Young states, be sure that we have it for EVERYONE. 63.3.7.1 05:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC) (PershinBoy)

I have updated the other tables also. If there is a prob with it, it can be reverted, I don't mind. Now that I can see the sortable age for each country, I think it would be better if all 36 vets were in one list so we could sort them all by age. The per-country lists were actually created by me a year ago when there were a lot more vets living.--Rye1967 16:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Great job once again. Extremely sexy 18:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

cheers man thanks. will try it but i'll probably cock it up. nice one the guy who loves having a go at people, i didnt write that article on wilfred baker as i dont have a clue how to find out any information on him as the only link that anyones mentioned about him will only work on the computers at college so i am still 'innocent'. if i had wrote it i'd have admitted to it man. and no worries im not that bad that im gonna cry if you criticise me man just didnt wana seem like some new guy to this who is writing up bio's on people and other people thinking who the hells this and whats he doing. but thanks to the people with the words of advice etc, much appreciated. Webbmyster 19:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Thumbs up for you. Extremely sexy 19:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You might be good at making friends, but not at telling the truth, spelling, capitalization, punctation, writing complete sentences, proper grammar, or listening to others. You must be a high-school student. I do not apologize for 'telling it like it is.' If everyone just gave you a pat on the back and said "good enough," would you ever get better?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

oh dear. i don't understand why you get so annoyed by everything that happens, take stuff with a pinch of salt man. Webbmyster 08:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

what's high school? can you not read i wrote college, which i thought would indicate i went to college and im studying music so just incase you want to have a go about that you can! Webbmyster 08:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Dan Keating

Whilst looking through some notable people born before 1904, my eyes rested on this fellow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Keating http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/ulster/article1096049.ece http://www.irelandfrombelow.org/site/scriofa/island1-1/island-1-2007.html

He fought in the war between the British & the Irish from 1919 onwards.

Now, I could just add him on willy-nilly to the main site, but I felt this is one for discussion first.

Firstly, he fought in a war in 1919. That's more than say, some of those who joined the US army in 1919 had managed.

The linked article says he joined in 1920, not 1919.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Secondly, he fought in a WWI era war, as did the two Finns.

BUT, of course - is this war directly to do with World War 1? Doubtful. Though you could say the battle for peace & for independence IS a indirect result from World War 1.

This would clearly be for WWI-era only, but is there a case for this chap to be included with the two Finns? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.144.231.68 (talk) 17:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

I say no...with the Finns, one side was fighting for the Russians, the other the Germans, which makes it at least related to the war...the fight between England and Ireland was a civil disorder, after the First World War was over...There are still veterans of the Mexican revolution who should be included here, otherwise. Czolgolz 19:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say include him in the World War I-era section. After reading that conflict began brewing in 1916 I would consider this war an indirect result of World War I. (unsigned comment)

You could consider a World War II a direct result of World War I, but that doesn't make it the same thing. Would you consider deaths in the Israeli/Arab war World War II casualties, since that conflict resulted in modern Israel? Czolgolz 22:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say yes to era-veterans. Bert Clark who died in 2005 who is written up under British veterans though he served in Ireland and not any area considered part of the war, so surely someone from the opposing side should be allowed on the list. Webbmyster 23:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

This could get very tricky, as it raises some questions: Some would argue that The Irish War of Independence, never really ended until the good Friday Agreement of 1998, as the Provisional IRA continued what it saw as an armed struggle against British imperialism in Northern Ireland (an extreme viewpoint admittedly, but some would argue this) If so then you could give WW1 era status to all combatants up to that point. It would also open up WW1 era status to the various revolutions that occurred in Europe in the aftermath of WW1.

Personally I don't think the connection between the Irish War and WW1 is solid enough to consider it as a related conflict, it has its own causes and roots that go back centuries, the only connection that I can think of is that the Republicans saw an opportunity to take advantage of the situation, were Britain was otherwise engaged.

One other question it does raise though, is that what is now Eire (Southern Ireland) would have sent troops to fight under the British Flag in WW1 - I just wonder if there are any WW1 vets remaining in Eire. As they could easily have been overlooked SRwiki 07:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

In Ireland, any battles between the British and Irish leading to Irish independence are not considered part of WWI. Any Irish nationals who did take part in WWI, for instance with the British Army, are not likely to be 'overlooked' by those that make such lists for the British Isles. If you examine lists of deaths in the early 2000s you will see some listed there.--Rye1967 10:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Theres a problem in that on lists of veterans who have died i've noticed more then 1 who just fought in Ireland and also India. So does that mean we should take them off the list because now we're saying it has nothing to do with WW1 so therefore they shouldn't be on there.Webbmyster 12:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I must say you have a point there. Extremely sexy 12:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

We also have people still alive and also deceased, who were still in training and didn't serve at all. Who's to say where they would have served because we dont know, yet we're still allowing them on the list. Webbmyster 13:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)webbmyster

The thing is, I think there needs to be a separate section or page here. Is Keating a WWI veteran? No. Is Keating a WWI-era veteran. Yes. Is Stillman Munger (for example) a WWI veteran? No. Is Stillman Munger a WWI-era veteran. Yes.

So why is Munger on the list and not Keating, even though both clearly didn't fight in World War 1?

Could we not have a page for WWI veterans (verified & unverified) and perhaps the start of a page for those that might have fought in the wars in Mexico, Ireland, those registered in the US army in 1919 etc etc (all the wars Robert Young listed somewhere, which was very useful) as a separate section/wiki page? Also it has to be said, with a wider scope, and the likelihood that soon the original WWI veterans will be dead (within a few years), then the opening up of WWI-ERA veterans could be fascinating.

It's an idea worthy of some thought, I would hope, and hopefully won't be simply dismissed. After all, it would be a shame for all this research to just stop when the last WWI veteran goes. 86.144.231.68 15:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the era part should be in another section. Those who don't know WW1 history will be confused. By the way who is the admin. of this page? Is it Robert Young or extremely sexy? Or are there several admins. for this page. Just asking. (unsigned comment)

Essentially, anyone's an admin, but Rye1967 tends to be the one main guru. Bart (ES) does a lot of the cleaning up, Robert Young does a lot of the... (I'm sure there's a better way of putting it, but time is short) putting debates across & new info. (unsigned comment)

Not that my opinion matters but i reckon go with the WW1 era veterans page. Webbmyster 22:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Greetings,

If someone wants to start a WWI-era page, it should be wikilinked from the 'main article' page along with all the 'related' conflicts. I think, however, that we need to consider that the U.S. soldiers who served in 1919 were recruited directly as a result of WWI, with the intent of pressuring Germany into agreeing to surrender terms, or cleaning up the battlefield, or serving as occupation troops. Also, the Finns listed served in 1918. True, the war in Ireland was related, because the IRA saw an opportunity to take advantage of British weakness. However, this is indeed a murkier claim, in part because Mr. Keating joined in 1920, and the IRA seemed to have waited for WWI to end first to launch their war, so as not to be seen as supporting Germany (the sinking of the Lusitania had turned much of Ireland against Germany).→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Not quite true: there was a pre-match warm up during Easter 1916, but I wouldn't be surprised if, after the Lusitania, the IRA decided that now was not quite the right time. SRwiki 13:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... 'tis murky indeed. Mind, it could be worth a go. I'll look into it & get that war list from the archives & see what (if anything) we know about the survivors of each one. I think it's fair that Mr Keating should not be on this page (WWI veterans), anyhow. I also think that the WWI-era veterans page is one we can look at for the future, I think it's a worthy project. RDJN

I do indeed agree. Extremely sexy 15:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Edwin Lee

Mr Lee probably was indeed a chaplain in World War I, but I think it should be deleted. If there was a man born in 1884 living in 21st century America, then we would have heard about it a long time before now. 130.88.52.112 16:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC) Captain celery

That's my opinion too. Extremely sexy 16:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It's funny that over half of his life is missing. There's no information about him from after the age of 60, such as a few months ago when he became the oldest human being of all time. He's been the world's oldest person since Sarah Knauss died, so we're going to have to change a lot of our tables. When Robert sees this, he's liable to go crazy. 130.88.52.112 16:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC) Captain celery

He already is though. Extremely sexy 16:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not as crazy as you, Bart, Mr. Un-capitalizer of everything and self-appointed irritant.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

No: you are the one who doesn't understand humour, and you are the one who is calling names: beware for my sweet revenge, Robert. Extremely sexy 15:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Another "helpful" contribution from the person who gave us Boris Efimov a few weeks ago I see! SRwiki 08:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Did you write "helpful" though? Extremely sexy 10:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Bart doesn't understand SARCASM! Also, the fact that this person would put a case from 1884 (last verified alive in 1945!) in the 'living' section says a lot about how unreliable 'Marcus' is. Absence of evidence is not proof that someone is 122 years old.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Bart, I keep forgetting that not everyone reading here will understand some of the odder ways we use punctuation in the UK - if something is in quotes, it will mean the opposite of what it says - unless it is actually a quote, of course. I will try not to do this in future, guess I was starting to get a bit irritated by some of the stuff Marcus has dropped on us. SRwiki 13:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Well: gotcha both then, since I knew that all along (I was being ironic), but Robert hasn't any sense of humour at all, regrettably so. Extremely sexy 15:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Lists of known veterans' deaths by year

I just added another WWI vet to the '2003 deaths' section. Does anyone know how to change the 'deaths lists' totals?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 06:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

You mean right at the bottom? No idea, that was Bart's idea. (unsigned comment)

This is really very ironical indeed: Robert himself made a template for this, and I only updated it. Extremely sexy 15:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

William Olin

Forgive me for asking, but what happened to this guy? Was he proved a fake? Has he died? Did he even exist? I only ask as normally there is an explanation or a short note on the discussion page when someone goes off the main list... Thanks. RDJN 86.144.231.68 16:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Well: the article about him was discussed and deleted, since there is no proof at all of his alleged service, hence. Extremely sexy 16:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

But his case was cited, and isn't that all one needs to make a claim? (unsigned comment)

Apparently there was no citation at all, but I have searched for one, since I was strongly against deletion, all to no avail, however, and so it subsequently was deleted then. Extremely sexy 18:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Bart, there's an article here. Are you saying that this was discussed and then decided to delete him as it wasn't proof? Don't get me wrong, I think he is a fake, but his story is as "solid" as Jim Lincoln's. I just don't want to take him off my list unless EVERYONE's agreed he's a fake or someone has proved he's a fake. Cheers. RDJN. 86.144.231.68 18:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I full agree with you, but why didn't you take part in the discussion at the time, please, and I hope you can still ask for a revision => is the article saved in any way though, and, moreover, the original link has expired, so that's no valid citation, or is it? Extremely sexy 18:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't aware there was a discussion. There certainly wasn't any recent mention of him on here. Maybe if people are having discussions about veterans a link could be put on the main page to it, in future? The article can be found at the following URL: http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.be/viewtopic.php?t=6174&view=next&sid=e1d04cb7f559c19a6bab38ed86d4e968

But if Olin has been deleted, then Jim Lincoln has to go to. His story, pardon my French, is a complete crock of horse s**t. (unsigned comment)

It was mentioned on the article about him though, and here is a link to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/William_Olin, but how can you get it restored? Extremely sexy 21:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you should now ask for an undeletion as per this page of request policy. Extremely sexy 22:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't Bart, I'm not a Wikipedia member. But you could. However, with this citation, surely anyone can see that Olin at least deserves his place on the unverified list, along with Lincoln & Bolaise, the other two mmmmmmmmmms..... RDJN

But they really haven't got any article either. Extremely sexy 00:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

(reproduced with original link below)

World War I veteran ponders 102 years • Oldest in Kane Co.: He joined Army at age 13, worked to transport wounded

By Linda Schweitzer SPECIAL TO THE COURIER NEWS

AURORA — Age is only a state of mind for William Olin of Aurora.

The last surviving World War I veteran in Kane County, Olin celebrated his birthday Monday, and he looks much younger than his 102 years.

And it's not the first time the seasoned veteran, born Aug. 28, 1904, has fooled people about his age.

In 1917, when the United States entered World War I, Olin was 13 years old and had a strong desire to support his country. He enlisted in the Army and shortly after was shipped to Bohme, France.

"I was a pretty good size, about 6 feet tall, and they never questioned you," Olin said.

"I told them I was 18 years old. I was a fool kid, and it was too late for my parents to do anything."

Olin doesn't like to talk about the war, but he said, "I did everything. When they asked for volunteers, I would volunteer."

"I chased an ambulance," he added. "I was the mule, and it wasn't what I thought it was.

"Olin's job as an ambulance assistant was transporting the bodies of American soldiers.

"They told me I didn't have to wear sidearms because the Germans had a pact with them that they wouldn't shoot an ambulance. But actually, they used that red band on your arm for a target."

Olin later was shot in the knee and spent time in a military hospital, before receiving a medical discharge in 1919.

After the war, Olin found a job as a mechanic in Aurora, working on cars, trucks and privately owned airplanes. He married three times and had eight children; two are deceased. He claims many grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren.

"I've never counted them, but I've got over 200 from five generations," Olin said. "And I don't know all of their names; but everyone says, 'Hi, Grandpa' and I have to say, 'Who are you? Who is your father?' "

Olin lived in three different houses in Aurora and built two of those homes. He worked for the West Aurora school district for 27 years, taking care of school buses. He left the district in 1974.

"I was 70 years old, and the age limit was 55," Olin remembered. "So I went out to my little farm and raised sweet corn, beans, carrots and tomatoes."

His advice for growing old and wise is to "drink all the whiskey and chase all the women you can," but he admits with a laugh that he didn't do that.

Olin now lives in a supportive living apartment at the Aurora Rehabilitation and Living Center on Farnsworth Avenue. 08/30/06 http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/couriernews/city/3_1_EL30_A3VET_S10830.htm _________________

I eventually found it somewhere in the archives, but to really get and be able to read it you have to register though, which is not free of charge evidently. Extremely sexy 19:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

That looks like a pretty good citation to me. I think he should be added back onto the list. (unsigned comment)

He has already been readded to the list. Extremely sexy 00:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Greetings,

I'm glad you people aren't judges because you can't seem to separate things well. I nominated the William Olin article for deletion because I felt that, being an unverified claim, he did not deserve a stand-alone article. However, I do feel there should be a mention on THIS page. The purpose of this page is to list not just the verified veterans but also the claimed veterans. We are TRACKING them. Thus, it is not inconsistent to feel that Mr. Olin did not deserve a standalone article but merited at least a 'footnote' mention in this article.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

To begin with, William Olin should remian in the unverified section fo this page until his claim can be fully disproved or proven. So far, nothing has been submitted to remove him from that list in any manner. As for his own, self-standing article on Wikipedia? I must admit, I am torn and if there is nothing really substantiating his claim, then it should be deleted. Perhaps another big push into researching this man's claims should be done first until all avenues and parties are exhausted? I'm sure many of you put a great deal of research into this man when his claim was originally presented, but what evidence is there that he did not serve? I admit, his age at the time of the War definitelty raises eyebrows, but obviously there were cases of just such a thing occurring back then. Is there no War Record from the time back then? Nothing even about his hospital stay during the war or anything on any US Census? Is there anything besides his own words (or news articles from his own words) that support his service? --Brianmccollum 10:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Well: for starters, there is no William Olin of anywhere near that age at all living in the entire state of Oregon. Extremely sexy 00:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you might be getting mixed up with Jim Lincoln. SRwiki 08:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Could be, but isn't this also the case for him? Extremely sexy 14:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that's the problem: there is no paper evidence to back up his claims, and if you dig round in the archive for this article, even his descendants think he is talking rubbish. But how can you prove he did not serve? How to prove a negative is one of those tricky philosophical questions, that has defeated a good few better minds than mine. Still, there is a citation, so he needs to be left where he is I guess. SRwiki 20:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

But there is a fair point here: if the only known citation is some-one claiming it for themselves, should it really count? Olin & Lincoln are substantially different from "Mr. 1899" and Bolaise, as some-one else believes them to be veterans, and we have a fair chance of establishing the truth (I am still waiting for Dennis Goodwin to get back to me regarding Bolaise), whereas with with Olin and Lincoln, every-one else who has looked at their claims thinks they are the proverbial crock, and in the case of Lincoln at least one of his claims - to be a research scientist - is contradicted by the total lack of records at the universities he claimed to have worked in and the lack of any published papers in his name. It doesn't totally disprove his claim: the university has lost his records, he only published in very obscure and now lost journals, etc. But it makes his claim look pretty unlikely to my eyes, maybe we should make a note against both of them that their claim is unsupported by any physical evidence or independent research, or believed to be false. Thoughts any-one? SRwiki 08:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair point once again. Extremely sexy 14:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Bart, William Olin IS the age he says he is. That's been proven already by US public records. The only query is if he is WHAT he says he is - a WWI veteran.

Jim Lincoln, however, there is no proof AT ALL of his age, his birthplace, and indeed ANY of the things he claims. The oldest Jim Lincoln in Oregon is around 80, IIRC.

To have Lincoln on here is an embarrasment, but Olin is less clear cut. I EXPECT he is fibbing, but it needs proving.

RDJN 86.144.231.68 14:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

So then I would definitely propose to undelete the article about him. Extremely sexy 14:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Del Toro & Pierro

I hated to see these two pass away, it was nice to have a male briefly top the world's oldest person list (del Toro) and Pierro worked at the same GE plant in Lynn as my future daughter-in-law. But it's been awhile, and I'm wondering why they still have a mention in this article. I could perhaps understand it in Pierro's case, as the current oldest WW1 vet inherited that title from him, but I think perhaps the point has been reached for these two names to be removed, given the number of other WWI veterans who have passed away this year without any current mention in the article. Any thoughts? (unsigned comment)

• Agreed. This article is aboutsSurviving veterans, the opening paragraph should therefore focus on the current survivors as well. --Maelwys 18:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
• I agree the notes on Del Toro should be moved to the died 2007 page. SRwiki 07:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
• Most of the info on Del Toro could be moved, but his age of 115 is notable as the oldest ever known WWI vet: a useful comparison for the ages of surviving vets. --Rye1967 08:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
• The opening paragraph has already been changed accordingly. Extremely sexy 11:29, 29 March

2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell he is the oldest known veteran of any war, which would make him even more notable. Does any-one know of any other candidate for this particular honour? SRwiki 07:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The second-oldest verified veteran ever was Antonio Pierro at 112 years and 346 days, or Moses Hardy at 113 years and 335 days (or perhaps third-oldest at 113 years and 335 days). Behind them are Giovanni Frau and George Johnson, at 112. The last Boer veteran, George Ives, died at 111, as did Ernest Pusey. Extensive research on Civil War veterans showed that ALL claims to older than 109 were FALSE, both Confederate and Union. The oldest verified Civil War veteran was James Hard, who died at 109 (claimed 111). Albert Woolson, cited as 109, died at 106. John Salling, said to be 112, was an impostor who was really just 101. Robert Hodges, who claimed to be 115, was really just 106. Even Lloyd Brown, said to be 105, was 104 according to the 1910 census. So, when age inflation is accounted for, Emiliano's record is not challenged. R Young {^yakł_talk} 08:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Lloyd Brown

Lloyd Brown. Just to let you know, I just received contact from Lloyd Brown's daughter, and he is in the hospital, and not doing well at all. The last six months have been a big blow in numbers with our United States WWI veterans. My thoughts and prayers to him and his family. 63.3.7.129 21:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC) (PershinBoy)

I'm sad to hear this about Lloyd Brown. My thoughts and prayers go out to him and his family as well. --Brianmccollum 00:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

So you also "know" Nancy Espina. Extremely sexy 00:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I am wondering (I did not want to add it to the main listing without asking) could someone add a bio page on Mr. Brown, like it has been done for Mr. Babcock and Mr. Coffey? I also think it should be added that he is now believed to be the last living U.S. Navy WWI veteran (of course looking at the list one could probably deduct this info). 162.114.211.139 15:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC) (PersinBoy)

I think "Webbmyster" already did so. Extremely sexy 15:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

well im trying. ive got some information on him etc and will put it up later. Webbmyster 17:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)webbmyster

You're doing a great job, "Webbmyster"! 63.3.7.129 21:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC) (PershinBoy)

I agree: splendid. Extremely sexy 01:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't like to pressume anything so why has Mr. Brown been taken off the list? there is nothing in deaths? webbmysterWebbmyster 21:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Well: someone (an anonymous user, by the way) updated his article with the information that he died today, but he or she provided no reference at all to prove this fact, so I'm still a bit suspicious about his possible death, although it had already been announced somewhat in this section yesterday, resulting in Maryland (the only state that still had more than one left) losing both its last WWI veterans in the space of just two days (the oldest one and last woman the day before yesterday, and the youngest one today), if it is true that is, and I guess it is nevertheless though. Extremely sexy 21:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

oh dear. cheers for letting us know man. webbmysterWebbmyster 22:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It's my pleasure though, as you know. Extremely sexy 22:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

He is dead: http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/03/last_us_navy_ve.html (unsigned comment)

This is some sad new indeed. In the past few years he had become somewhat of a symbol of the soldiers of The Great War, at least in my eyes, after having participated in the Memorial Day parades in Washington and all. Though he always sounded so humble in interviews and never seemed to think of himself as anything special, he had taken on a role, again in my eyes, as the Grand Patriarch of all US Veterans of all Wars. It was as if, in his later years, he was once again called upon to serve his country yet again in this new capacity, as he had once done honorably as a young man long ago. His passing is sad and he will be missed. --Brianmccollum 11:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Another one down regrettably

Whos name has been deleted from the veterans list taking it down from 36-35 because i can't see hows missing?Webbmyster 10:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC) webbmyster

Charlotte Winters, as she's dead. She's on the died in 2007 page. Also check the history page at the top as it'll say why people have been taken of the list. Thanks, RDJN

i know how to check thanks, but when i went on no one had put her under deaths and she wasn't at the top fo the page!Webbmyster 12:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)webbmyster

Indeed: she died yesterday at age 109 (not bad, is it?). Extremely sexy 14:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Notably, we see USA Today listing four remaining American veterans of WWI:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-27-cover-ww1-vet_N.htm?POE=NEWISVA

LAST SURVIVING VETS OF AMERICAN WARS

Nearly 90 years after America entered World War I on April 6, 1917, just four known U.S. veterans remain. Charlotte Winters, 109, of Boonsboro, Md., the last female veteran of the war, died Tuesday. That leaves Frank Buckles, 106, of Charles Town, W.Va.; Lloyd Brown, 105, of Charlotte Hall, Md.; Russell Coffey, 108, of North Baltimore, Ohio; and Harry Landis, 107, of Sun City Center, Fla.;

So it seems Mr. Landis has been accepted, but not Robley Rex or Orin Peterson. I guess that settles these debates unless some new evidence comes to light.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 23:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Unless they are just following "Wikipedia". Extremely sexy 01:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Unless this article came direct from the VA, I would imagine the information came from this site. 63.3.7.1 06:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC) (PerhinBoy)

CNN are reporting on this as well right here: they allege there are 5 known surviving veterans, but sadly they don't detail who they are. (unsigned comment)

I would say CNN is looking at this site also, and #5 is Mr. Babcock. They just don't take the time to review that he did his training in Canada. Just my guess, but I'd say that's the case. 162.114.211.139 14:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC) (PershinBoy)

I already thought as much, dear PershinBoy. Extremely sexy 14:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

U.S. veteran numbers collapse and statistics

Greetings,

The collapse of the U.S. WWI veteran numbers since Nov 10, 2006 (about 13) to just '3' today is astounding. Even for an entire year, the death rate at age 110 is only 50%. To have so many die in such a short time defies statistical odds. Interestingly many of these veterans had been visited quite often in recent months, from NPR to autograph-seekers to book-writers to newspapers. I do wonder if any of this had some effect. Ironically, it seems that for the oldest-old, 'recognition' can sometimes be a 'negative'...it may give them a sense of life-fulfillment and thus no reason to continue living. There is also a chance some of them may have gotten ill after meeting much-younger persons. Nursing-home settings may not be a fun place to be, but often these people are kept isolated for months and even years. Of course, that gets into the quality-vs-quantity issue.

One note, it seems the American news has finally begun to 'get it.' USA Today did a front-page cover story on Frank Buckles this week. Mr. Buckles, it seems, has been chosen as the best remaining representative. Mr. Coffey is not in good shape physically and little is known about Mr. Landis (however, some recent misinformation on the Landis article borders on vandalism...q.v.).

One more note: statistically, the 'oldest' and 'last' veterans (or survivors, period) are often NOT the same. More likely, the 'last' survivor is going to be among the 'youngest' of the surviving group. Consider, for example, the Titanic survivors: one lived to 104, a few others to 100+, but currently the last two survivors are a mere 95..the youngest two remaining. With Australia's WWI vets, Jack Lockett reached 111 in 2002, and that mark hasn't been come close to since. Part of the reason is sample size: a greater sample size produces a greater likelihood of someone reaching 110 or older. Notably, the U.S. in the last year or so has lost Emiliano Mercado Del Toro (115), Moses Hardy (112 or 113), George Johnson (112), Ernest Pusey (111) and Antonio Pierro (almost 111)--a remarkable FIVE super-c's. With the death of Charlotte Winters at 109, the oldest remaining US veteran is now a mere 108, and the average age of the three remaining vets is 107 (down from 108 in November). The sample has gotten smaller because the youngest remaining vets would all have been underage (and the number of underage vets, while significant, is not nearly as much as the numbers aged 18-24). Looking at the last ones, J. Russell Coffey would have been 20 in Oct 1918; Harry Richard Landis would have been 18; and Frank Buckles, 16. There remains a small chance of finding someone else or re-crediting a 'discredited' case (like Robley Rex). However, for the meantime it does look like the Time Magazine prediction in 1995 of the 'last American WWI vet' dying in 2007 may come true. Ironically, it may be up for the other nations (the UK and Italy each have 9 vets remaining) to carry the torch into 2008 and probably a last one or two into 2009. Or Mr. Buckles could defy the odds and lead the Americans to 2009, but the statistical power of one is 'hanging by a thread.'

R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting article you have written. At first I didn't agree with the part about media and autograph seekers leading to a quicker death. Most seem honored to be in the limelight. However, coming into contact in person and even with the mail, they are exposed to a lot more germs. 63.3.7.1 05:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC) (PershinBoy)

Of course staticstics are just that, math calculations. It is just as posible, although statistically less likely, that one of the remaining vets could also live to be 115. But although we might think of these possibilites, and are all reading here due to our interest in such records, such speculation is of very little importance overall. These people have lived long and productive lives, have served their nations, and are worthy of our admiration and respect. --Rye1967 11:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It's sad that we are now seeing the passing of the last eyewitnesses to the global conflict that shaped modern Europe. I often marvel at how little attention is paid to World War I and the incredible effect it had on our modern world, including the current situation in the Middle East. I encourage you to take a look at the USA Today article on Frank Buckles -- one of the best I've seen in a long time -- and to listen to the PRX audio narrated by Walter Cronkite, and pass them on. Frankwomble 13:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting thoughts from Mr Young. I think that there will still be some survivors into 2010, actually, with luck. Will Stone & Claude Choules, for example, are doing very well indeed (touch wood) so far - and Henry Allingham (albeit the oldest of the lot) is an inspiration. I expect, sadly, Coffey to go in 2007 almost certainly, but we shall see. It would be nice to have over 25 veterans at the end of the year (verified & unverified), but I don't know whether that's going to happen. 86.144.231.68 15:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC) RDJN

I'm afraid at the rate it is going, by the end of the year I doubt more than 12 to 18 will be living. I do think there is a good chance for a couple to be around for several more years though, although I wouldn't want to bet on it either way. It's amazing. I doubt if any of us reading these articles will even make it to 100! 63.3.7.129 21:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC) (PershinBoy)

Well: my mother's father made it to 96 and his own mother died at 93, plus my father's father is still alive atage 93 currently and his own mother died at 92, so with some luck and especially the right genes, who knows, but, as you put it quite rightly, it's God's decision, and a question of fate, since nobody has a crystal ball, or maybe you? Extremely sexy 21:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

oh dear you're all making me depressed. next people will be running sweep stakes on which veteran is going to peg it next or which country will lose all its veterans first! are there not more important matters to discuss rather then when you think a certain veteran will die! webbmysterWebbmyster 22:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes, there are more important matters, but that's not what this site is set up for. It's to honor and discuss the last WWI veterans. Our topic has taken a depressing turn, but, as someone mentioned above, these men (and women) have lived very long and productive lives... We should be so lucky. 63.3.7.1 06:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC) (PershinBoy)

I don't find it depressing at all. After all, these people are over 100 years old. Robert Young may have a point, but he seems to be treating them as holy relics, and not as people. They are bound to die because of their old age, so one should not wonder if this is due to stress or not. I think the doctors would know more about this than we do. (wikipedia guy)

Wikipedia guy, in a way these people DO become 'holy relics'...if not what is the purpose of their articles? My great-great-uncle served in WWI and died in 1978. His service was the same. What is different is that, in 1978, it was still ordinary to be a WWI vet. In fact, as recently as 1987 there were still an estimated 91,000 U.S. WWI vets still living. As the numbers dwindle to near zero, we are losing not just a centenarian but the last living witnesses to an historical era. Charlotte Winters became a 'holy relic' as the 'very last' American female WWI vet, and Lloyd Brown for the Navy, Jud Wagner for the Marines, etc. Also, it's not just their age or even veteran status: it's that they were there. Robley Rex apparently joined the military 'just after the Armistice.' He is well over 100 and a veteran. But 'close, but no cigar'. It's like the difference between being the father of a baby (Larry Birkhead) and being a pretender (Howard K. Stern).

Second, statistics show that the annualized death rate for persons aged 105-109 is about 40-50% and for age 110-115 about 50-60%. Thus, to go from 13 to 3 in 139 days (77% death rate in 38% of a year) is much higher than expected. Some of this must be due to the fact that, after a period of death rates less than expected, a sort of 'evening' force may level out here. However, I do think there is a little bit of psychosomatic connection here as well. Among the elderly, a spouse often dies within a year of a husband. Here, we have both 'fulfillment' (many of these WWI vets in the USA were given lots of recognition over the past few months), perhaps sadness at hearing other colleagues go, and perhaps a bit too much attention. Or maybe just a streak of bad luck. R Young {^yakł_talk} 05:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

According to NPR this morning, the Veterans Affairs office counts three US veterans (and one Canadian) still alive. So we match. Czolgolz 13:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, I guess John F. Babcock became an American when he emigrated from Canada to the U.S., did he not? Extremely sexy 18:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I read that he is now a U.S. citizen. (PershinBoy)

While he is a U.S. citizen "now", he most likely has dual U.S. and Canadian citizenship. The main thing is that at the time of WWI, he fought for Canada, and Canada only. I hope the U.S. Dept of Veterans is not trying to "claim" him as one "of their own" so to speak. He left Canada after WWI. I say this because I too am Canadian. {User Redpepper 1952} 21:50, 2 April, 2007 (UTC)

Good for you, and I fully agree. Extremely sexy 12:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Józef Kowalski

Regarding the Polish article as reference 11, http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wiadomosc.html?wid=8714409&ticaid=13802:

It starts by stating that he is the oldest Polish resident of the Lubuskiego province (which is south western Poland as I remember: voivodships translates to administrative regions, somewhat similar to Wales/Scotland/England/Northern Island forming the UK, except in Poland these all have administrations). It then says he is in a nursing home at Tursku Sulęcina. He is wheelchair bound, with poor sight and hearing, but he can still be communicated with. He is the soul of the home, which has a number of occupants, and he can count on frequent family visits as they are nearby. The secret of long life is not to take anything too seriously. He was born in the village of Wicyn on February 2nd, 1900 as a subject of tsar Nikolay II Romanov. He fought at the end of the First World War with the Bolsheviks. He spent WWII in captivity, and afterwards settled in Lubuskie. Now that he is nearing death (old age that is), he has returned to his home land. There are two other people over 100 that live in the house with him.

It would be interesting to find out if he is the oldest living Polish person, and what exactly his captivity in WWII was, e.g. was he a Polish Jew and therefore pushed into a local 'Ghetto' as they were called, or was he transported to one of the camps?

This reference rather suggests to me that he is a veteran of the Russian Revolution, rather than one of the First World War: do we have any evidence that he was in the Imperial Russian Army prior to that? Thoughts anyone? SRwiki 05:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Józef Piotrowski

Regarding http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Piotrowski and http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weteran:

I saw him on the discussion list a while ago. Apparantly he was a professional organ player. But the article makes no reference to WWI. He never smoked, and seldom drinks. This was sourced from the Polish longevity list. It seems very doubtful he was in WWI: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Polscy_rekordzi%C5%9Bci_d%C5%82ugowieczno%C5%9Bci.

Signed by RichyBoy (been an admirer of the work on this page for a long while now, will sort out wiki account sometime).

I guess no mention of an exact date of death for him in the Polish article about him either, my dear friend? Extremely sexy 12:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, it looks like the Wiki article was translated from the article I found on a Polish news site and done by this group's contributor Young, and the Polish one is no different. The Polish Wiki article just states he died in the 4th quarter of 2005, but this appears to be contested, and indeed there is nothing on the web. We either find out in September when he is to turn 120, or, more likely, the rumours are true. The Polish article says he is in care of the "brothers of Franciscans" at Świsłoczy, Wołkowysk (Belarus to me and you). My Polish isn't good enough to be very accurate about these things though. This however is probably the reason why people are finding info sparse if they are only looking for Polish news, so a proper look at the Belarus aged is needed (including 'fake' claims, as the Polish article might be claiming the early birth date, because he was Polish, whilst it may have been disproven elsewhere). Also, his name may be slightly changed from his Belarusian one to the one of Poland.

In any event, that doesn't change the question of WWI (although it seems unlikely), and, if we look at a recent article here, this could imply that he is dead anyway or at least the claim has been rubbished.

- RichyBoy

Thanks for the information: very much appreciated. Extremely sexy 13:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

New tables & help, please

Being responsible for most of the information for the UK & Ireland for 1999-2006 over the past year I put it into the same table format as the Surviving Veterans page a couple of weeks ago. These were changed back with a comment that if there were going to be tables then everyone should have them. I have now put time and effort into giving all the pages the same 'look and feel' which, I think, makes them a bit easier to read and allows for a little background on each of the vets to be given. Some vets have also been moved for consistency across the different pages. I probably should have asked first but it is easier to get forgiveness than ask permission, and if people are not happy they can be changed back easily. There are some additions too, however, so, please, make sure that these are not lost.

I would be grateful for any information (including dates of death) on the following individuals. All are verified WWI vets.....

Reported alive end of 1998: UK & Ireland

Name	Reported Death	External References
Thomas J Alexander, Sergeant, Royal Sussex Regiment
J.E.L. Baines,Gloucestershire Regiment
Herbert Birks, 28th London Regiment: Artist’s Rifles
Lawrence Blyth, 28th London Regiment: Artist’s Rifles	October 2001	Last NZ veteran
James Burns, Private, Royal Irish Rifles (living in Northern Ireland)
William Calvert, Royal Irish Rifles (living in Northern Ireland)		Interview
G Cooper, Gordon Highlanders
Albert Coss, King’s Royal Rifle Corps
Clara Emmingham, QMAAC
Ronald Fraser, Royal Field Artillery
Horace Gaffron, Private, 1/4th Gordon Highlanders (living in the USA)
Archibald Leslie Gracie, Lieutenant, 2nd King’s Royal Rifle Corps
Jack Hind, Suffolk Regiment
John Laurie, Private, Army Service Corps
Thomas Linton, Sapper, Royal Engineers
George Maher, Private, 2nd King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment (living in Australia)
Thomas McDowell, Royal Irish Regiment
Alice McKinnon, Queen Alexandra’s Imperial Military Nursing Service Reserve
James Moir, Royal Navy (living in Scotland)
Charles Ross, Private, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
Samuel Shingler, Royal Navy
Ernest A T Stevens, Private, 5th Middlesex Regiment (living in Canada)		Picture Canada Veterans Week 1998
Robert Thompson, Black Watch
George P Tyers, Corporal, King’s Royal Rifle Corps
Robert Urquhart, Private, King’s Own Scottish Borderers & Scottish Rifles
J.C.W. Wallace, Royal Horse Light Infantry

Canada

Name	Reported Death	External References
Henri Allain		Biography
Frederick Connett		Biography
Frederick Evans		Biography
Walter Loudon	Possibly 1999; September/ October 1999 Source: [1] Lists most dates of death going back to mid or early 1990's to date. LastName=loudon&FirstName=walter&Year=&Age=&Rank=&Unit=&PeriodOfService=&LegionBranch=&City=&Province=&CreationDate=&IssuePublished=&WebPublishingDate=&WebPublishingStatus=Show&submit=Start+Search	Biography In memorium reference 1999
Lawrence Morton		Biography
Percy Perdue		Biography
Harry Routhier		Video interview 18th May 1999 Biography
Thomas Spear		Video interview Biography
Stephan Thorlakson		Biography

Article about a trip a number of these made in November 1998 (published Feb 1999) Interview

Link page for the above biographies: Biographies Italy

Name	Reported Death	External References
Victor Pierre Paul Cordiano (living in Canada)		Biography

Reported alive end of 1999:

UK & Ireland

Name	Reported Death	External References
Harold Kitchens, Ordinary Seaman, Royal Navy (living in Singapore)

Reported alive 2001:

UK & Ireland

Name	Reported Death	External References
Andrew Bowie, 1st Queens Own Cameron Highlanders (living in Australia)

Canada

Name	Reported Death	External References
Gordon Boyd

Thanks in anticipation. (unsigned comment)

Many thanks for your great efforts, man. Extremely sexy 00:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind but I've tabulated all of this to make it easier to edit and fill in - RichyBoy

Also, from this page here:

In November 1998 a list entitled "The Last Survivors" was published in the Daily Telegraph of 318 names of veterans of WWI all in their 90s or past their century, and subsequently an addenda of a further 29 names. I kept this list of names and have recorded, when I have seen it published, the dates of their deaths and any photographs or references to them. Number 11 on the list (in alphabetical order) is Alice M. Baker, aged 100 at the time, whose death I sadly recorded on March 6th when I saw it published in the Telegraph. However, she was not the only woman recorded on that list, it included - Mrs Margaret Jane Cranfield, 101, QMAAC served in France - Mrs Clara Emmingham, 99, QMAAC, served in Ripon - Mrs Evelyn Stanley, 100, WRAC, Royal Horse Artillery (I wonder what her function was) - Bessie Bacon, 99, Royal Flying Corps, RAF Uxbridge - Alice McKinnon, 104, QAIMNS®, Etaples, France and, not recorded in the list, but picked up later, Winifred Deacon, 101, F.A.N.Y., Ambulance Driver in France. I wonder how many others the list failed to pick up? - RichyBoy

Andrew Bowie, 3rd October 1897 - 26th August 2002. Horrace 'Jock' Gaffron, 20th October 1896 - 15th April 2000 if thats what you wanted to know man. if it is im sure ive heard more of those names before so will look further for you. Webbmyster 16:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for their prompt responses. Have updated the relevant pages with the details of Messrs Gaffron and Bowie. I look forward to more information in due course. (unsigned comment)

Russell Coffey

The following link has an interview and a number of photographs conducted with Russell Coffey, which was published on Friday 6th April, to celebrate his 90th anniversary at volunteering. It can be found here —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.194.97.107 (talk) 00:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

The pictures over here. Extremely sexy 15:35, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a great article, commemorating a man who enlisted 90 years ago. It must be beyond surreal for Mr. Coffey, to look back on something he did as a young man 90 years after the fact. Unbelievable! In addition, this is the first place where I've seen an article ask the public's help in locating any other surviving Veterans of WWI. Hopefully there will be some other efforts by other media outlets to assist in this cause. Though the chances are slim, it would be wonderful if there are other veterans still out there in the US and the world that we do not know about. Perhaps even this effort could help out with some of the unverified cases on the board as well. All in all, a great article. Thanks for posting the link. --Brianmccollum 17:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletorious intent

Another attempt to have an article on WW1 veterans deleted, has just emerged (yes, I know we've been there before, but the proposer of the motion obviously doesn't). This one concerns the "Died in 1999" page. If anybody wishes to vote, here is the link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Veterans_of_the_First_World_War_who_died_in_1999

Josias Bunsen 23:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

So sad. What difference does it make to these people if this article is here? How can you be that opposed to a Wikipedia article recognizing some of the last veterans of WWI who have passed away and go as far as to propose that it be removed? I encourage everyone on this discussion page to go and vote to KEEP the article here. --Brianmccollum 17:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

To be fair the wikipedia isn't here to serve as a in-memorial, it's an encylcopedia. I voted for a keep and I put my reasons why on that page. The 'Veterans of the First World War who died in xxxx' lists are generally concise (albeit sometimes not entirely complete) and without tribute and provide reference and context to a subject which is in general encyclopedic. Personally I'd like to see the lists kick off from November 11th 1998 onwards when many newspapers made much of the few veterans that still survived at that time. Once the last veteran has sadly passed on then I think people will have a much stronger claim as to the relevancy of these lists. I think the long term future of this page and indeed the lists will be something along the lines of "Last notable veterans of WW1", which would include along the lines of: Last surviving veteran of each military unit (eg, Black Watch, a certain Battalion or division), Last surviving rank of each country, veterans that died with notable distinctions (Last victoria cross veteran), maybe veterans that held certain age records (like oldest ever veteran) and things on this ilk. RichyBoy 19:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I voted for deletion! Dawid (unsigned comment)

Why on earth would you do that? Extremely sexy 13:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

B.C. dating

Why is the main list now listing persons with B.C. dates? In red? Someone, please, fix. R Young {^yakł_talk} 02:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well: I will have a look at it in due course. Extremely sexy 16:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Philip Mayne 1899-2007

Dear all, Philip Mayne has passed on, apparently on April 9:

http://www.crikey.com.au/Media/20070410-Vale-Philip-Mayne-the-worlds-oldest-columnist.html

R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Violet Bolaise, Wilfred Baker and Bob Taggart

Any word on Violet Bolaise? R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Morning, I am still waiting for Dennis Goodwin to get back to me: I wrote to him about a month ago, so I expect he is still digging around, thanks. SRwiki 08:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Morning again, the post has just arrived and Dennis Goodwin has replied, with a couple of points:

1. Violet Bolaise was not a WW1 veteran, and has recently died, he hasn't given me an actual date;

I'd still like to know when she died, and when she enlisted! OK, but that moves the UK from '9' max to 7 (along with Philip Mayne's death). Italy now leads with 9 (inc. two living in France). R Young {^yakł_talk} 23:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

2. Wilfred Baker enlisted December 1918, and so is not a WW1 vet;

3. He has also noted that Bob Taggart might be cited as a WW1 vet at some point, but like Wilfred Baker he enlisted with the navy immediately after WW1.

If no-one objects I will remove Wilfred Baker from the 2007 deaths, and Violet Bolaise from the main page in the next day or so, thanks. SRwiki 11:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok - I did it already. Cheers, David. (unsigned comment)

I'd prefer their deaths to remain and asterisked (i.e. 'enlisted Dec. 1918'). Note in the USA people like Julio Ereneta and Maurice Starkey are listed. Also, it's only a good idea because the Treaty of Versailles was in mid-1919. R Young {^yakł_talk} 23:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

If she died then why is she still in the living section? (unsigned comment)

I don't think so. Extremely sexy 13:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Nineteen down in fifteen weeks

It's quite disturbing: 19 veterans down in the first 15 weeks of 2007, leaving only 32 verified veterans. I'm still hoping that somebody like Henry Allingham can make it to the Cenotaph next November though for the 90th anniversary. I'm not wishing to be at all morbid, but I've just calculated the mean and mode of those that have died since 1st January 2006 - the mode is 106 (being the most common age), the mean is just a smidgen over 107. Statistically, this will go up a bit as the very youngest veterans are now making this kind of age, and the less veterans there are the less probable it is they will follow the trend as they become statistical anamolies, obviously that's of no comfort to anyone, except to give a bit of hope that some of these veterans can still be here in 2010 (8 veterans since the start of 2006 reached 110 or more, so I would have thought a few of the younger ones by the stats will make it that far as well). RichyBoy 17:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Greetings,

There is a very good chance that at least 2-3 veterans will still be alive at the start of 2009. I would say there's a 60% chance at least one veteran will reach 2010. However, would we be disappointed if they turned out to be Italian and German and Australian? The real issue is not the total number remaining but we each want representation...the USA and France are perilously close to losing here. France has TWO 109-year-olds, one anonymous 108-year-old, a 108-year-old Italian veteran, and a 107-year-old. The USA hasn't had a find since December (Harry Richard Landis) and now just three veterans left.

Also, it's not just nationality, it's what they did. If the last vets are all non-combat who never saw action, it's just not the same. Henry Allingham was actually at the Battle of Jutland! That's what we want, someone who was there and saw the war from the front. In the USA, Frank Buckles remains the lone living memory, as the other two were in training. R Young {^yakł_talk} 23:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think we're all slightly jingoist when it comes to it, who wouldn't want to see one of their home nation be amongst the very last few. I think I would be happy enough though knowing there was a combat veteran amongst them no matter what side they served. You're right about the veteran, the classical image in most peoples mind will be that of an individual that saw combat action, I think there will be a certain lack of fulfillment if the last veteran hadn't seen genuine combat. 87.194.97.107 12:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Listing by nation issue

Greetings,

On some of the other pages, someone has moved Pawel Parniak from 'Poland' to Austria-Hungary (and a Hungarian entry as well). This remains an issue: how do we list these people by nation? What is John Babcock? An American or Canadian? He is a Canadian veteran and an American citizen. I'd prefer to list by place of death because one only dies once, whereas Lazare Ponticelli served two nations. If so, I think Pawel should be moved back to Poland. R Young {^yakł_talk} 23:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I prefer to see someone like Babcock be listed as American/Canadian in the Canadian category. If he is listed as an American, it would complicate things a bit. Ponticelli, who served in both the French and Italian armies, can remain in the French category. (wikipedia guy)

These pages are about veterans of WWI, and it is surely more logical to list them by the nations of whose forces they are veterans of, rather than where they ended up living/dying 90 years later. Lazare Ponticelli did indeed serve two nations, but he appears to be the only veteran of the 1,068 listed to have done so. If all vets were to be shifted to their country of death (which was previously done partially and inconsistently across the pages) we would then have Italian vets in Brazil, Poles who fought for the Habsburgs in the UK, Russians and Belgians in the USA, Jamaicans in Cuba, etc., and matters would get very confusing.

That said, I think it makes a lot of sense to list the surviving vets by the countries in which they live, as it ensures that no-one is missed and makes keeping track easier. 86.141.57.30 22:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC) Bruce

At this point I really don't think it matters. The way we have them listed seems fine to me. The chart is pretty easy to read. I understand your point...... List them in the country served, and not where they live, but if we change it that way, others will complain they like it better the old way. The bottom line: I think we are smart enough to look at these charts and figure who they fought for, and where they live. This isn't an extensive list. The rate we are going, there will only be two dozen left by June. 209.247.21.167 05:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC) (PershinBoy)

Hermann Solveen

Sad news: Solveen already died in 2006 apparently. We don't know the exact date (yet), but we hope to find it out. Statistician 11.04.2007 20:49 (CET)

Fog Lifting on Harry Richard Landis, search for unknown WWI vets

Greetings,

It seems the momentum has finally carried forward to a story recognizing Mr. Landis in the light of his being one of the last WWI vets, but he doesn't seem much interested in it...perhaps why he wasn't discovered until December.

Notably, however, is the comment:

The VA may have tracked down one other vet in the last few days, spokesman Phil Budahn says, "but we haven't yet verified that information."

Also, it seems that Mr. Landis is still doing well (and is married; his wife is 99). So, even as we dropped another one today (Hermann Solveen, who actually died in 2006), let's not forget there may be more than the '31' listed here. Also, the anonymous French WWI vet is still alive, according to my source, and there may be 2-3 more German vets not yet recognized. Polish lists may not be complete, either. However, I wouldn't expect more than about 6-12 more worldwide to be discovered. The UK data is probably complete. The Italian data is mostly complete but I've been told the possibility still exists for someone who served less than 3 months to have been unreported. R Young {^yakł_talk} 06:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Interesting piece, but just one small point - where is the proof for Solveen? There's nothing at all to confirm it except the above comment saying he had died in 2006? You seem to have blithely accepted that as proof, but have been more stringent on others? (unsigned comment)

Our two German correspondents are very reliable indeed. Extremely sexy 13:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Warsaw (1920)

Is this a WWI-era war? If so, as of August 15th, 2006, there were still 6 veterans alive. Each year, on this day, all surviving ones are invitated to the ceremony in Warsaw, and meet the president. (unsigned comment)