Talk:Sicilian Mafia

/Archive - all conversation prior to July 2006. -- nae'blis _(talk) 16:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Semantics

The person who wrote the 'FBI.GOV' section has not realised that the FBI is incorrect in calling Cosa Nostra 'La Cosa Nostra'.

Maybe you should cite a source before correcting someone. The "La", in Italian, is very similar to the English word "the" or even "this". While literal translations don't often make sense, the loose translation of "La Cosa Nostra" is "this thing of ours", "the thing of ours", "our thing", or similar meanings. The presence of "La" in the name is still correct in the Italian language. Regardless of who added it or their reasons for doing so, it is correct either way. But like I said, if you actually have a source, list it, that's the point of the talk page.

I am sorry, that is not correct. The original and proper wording in Italian or Sicilian was "cosa nostra",and was used as part of a broader sentence. The "la" was never used in Italian. It was used in the sence that this guy is belonging to "cosa nostra" -- our thing. And not he is "la cosa nostra".

• Maybe so, but a source is still required, especially considering that in Italian the "la" would have actually been required in certain contexts.
  • As an Italian, I can testify I've never heard anyone say "La cosa nostra", it's always been "cosa nostra", without the article. Note that this due to the sometimes peculiar Sicilian way of speaking Italian: in "pure" Italian, we would say "La nostra cosa" to mean "our thing". --88.149.169.249 22:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Reguardless of the correct / incorrect nature of the information if the FBI call it something then they call it something. I believe that if it is good enough for the FBI it is good enough for wikipedia, if you can quote some offical Italian source, please do so. Arguing common usage is not enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EnzoYug (talk • contribs)

I am an italian too. "La cosa nostra" is just wrong. If you want to keep Wikipedia with errors just because you are can't get rid of the "official source" paranoia, go right ahead. Walk all the way down from Valle d'Aosta to Sicily and ask any of the 58 million italians if "La cosa nostra" is right: you will have 58 million unofficial sources that will tell you that it's just "Cosa nostra". Every single book, article, newspaper, government report in Italy refers to the mafia as "Cosa nostra". If you believe it is correct just because the FBI says that's what it is called, maybe you should rewrite the articles regarding the status of US terrorist risk around 9/11 and quote the FBI too. You probably would have 290 million unofficial american sources that will tell you that it was not exactly correct.

The definite article could be Anglo-Saxon paranoia. After all, if there is only one Cosa Nostra, what's all the fighting about? --londheart 23:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

=A separate, more minor semantic issue

= After the revolutions of 1848 and 1860, Sicily had fallen to the brink of anarchism.

I'm aware that anarchy is often used as a synonym for chaos, but anarchism is a collection of political philosophies and this makes about as much sense as "Sicily had fallen to the brink of existentialism". Unless someone's aware of a massive social drive towards anarchism, I'm considering changing this for "chaos" or "collapse" for the sake of clarity.--81.155.164.40 11:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

FOR GOD SAKE DOES IT MATTER?????

I think the distinction is between anarchism (an ideology) and anarchy ("the breakdown of order following the collapse of a state"), so i would suggest After the revolutions of 1848 and 1860, Sicily had fallen to the brink of anarchy.212.32.11.115 13:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Misconceptions

People often mistakenly assume that "power" within the organized crime world is associated with "violence." All organized crime groups inflict violence as a form of discipline, instill fear, and to establish a foothold on a racket, and yes, there are other ethnic organized crime groups in the United States that are much more violent, some criminal organizations have no rules and will target an individual's familiy as well as children. However, power within the American underworld has to meet at least three criteria to be considered a true "organized" criminal enterprise, which are: 1) violence or threat of violence to enforce, to protect, or to establish/infiltrate a racket, 2) political power, (including corruption of government and law enforcement officials) and 3) monopoly over a racket.

An example of the Mafia's monopoly is their control over traditional organized crime in New York & Chicago in the rackets of gambling, garment industry, trucking, labor racketeering, construction bid rigging, are all specialties of the La Cosa Nostra, with the knowledge and experience on efficiently operating these rackets. In contrast, other organized crime groups are heavily into narcotics, a racket mostly every crime group is involved in, but not controlled by any specific crime group, but are NOT able to establish or diversify into other rackets like the Mafia's traditional rackets because 1) it is controlled/monopolized by the Mafia and 2) other crime groups don't have the experience or in depth knowledge, not to mention not having the connections or the networks (including both political & associates) to establish, operate, and maintain these rackets. As an example the Russian Organized Crime Groups are said to be a very violent organized crime group, but not as well organized as the Italians.

In regards to corruption of government and/or law enforcement officials, today's Mafia may not be able to claim politicians as there "friends" as they have done in the past, or claim direct involvement in electing a President or appointing a federal judge. Today's Mafia have compromised most at the city and state level as in the current news of the convictions of the Mafia Cops, indictment of a retired FBI agent accused of working for the Mafia, and a judge allegedly working for the Mafia.

The Mafia or La Cosa Nostra epitomizes and perfected organized crime in the United States for over 50 years and they were synonomous with "organized crime" in America. The success of the FBI investigations and prosecutions, along with other internal factors have weakened the Mafia. However the Five Families have not been dismantled. At their current state, it can be argued whether or not they are the most violent, most feared, or most powerful of all crime groups in the United States. The following cannot be ignored: The Italian/Sicilian La Cosa Nostra is still a very large organization with several networks with a vast resources/wealth, and unlike other crime groups, they are well entrenched within the American system in areas of business, industry, and politics; the Five Families of the New York Mafia continue to meet all the aboved mentioned criteria, more so than any other organized crime group in the United States today.

Selweynn Raab, author of the book "Five Families:" The Rise, Decline, and Resurgence of America's Most Powerful Mafia Empires" gives a glimpse of the Mafia today.

________________ (addition by 666):

"the La Cosa Nostra" = The the our thing

Whatever your opinion is in the discusion above (cosa nostra vs. la cosa nostra), "the La Cosa Nostra" is definitely wrong. Same for "The Italian/Sicilian La Cosa Nostra" that appears later in the text. It makes about as much sense as "The La Bastille" or "The Das Boot." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.123.167.24 (talk • contribs)

Although it should be known that "la cosa nostra" is considered a name used primarly in the United States faction of the mafia. Since Luciano first advised the name to others it has been used instead of mafia or mob. Also, the Chicago families have never been known to use these descriptions but use "the outfit" to describe thier crews.75.46.60.20 18:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)Anthony Richard

Etymology

This debate needs to be hashed out here, not within the article itself. It's obvious there's enouch confusion/legendary origins floating about that we need concrete, reliable sources and perhaps a draft copy here, rather than a back-and-forth edit war. I've reverted the last edit not because of factual errors (I don't have enough knowledge personally to say who's right), but because it excised a great deal of text and put things like "WRONG AGAIN" into the article text. Discuss. -- nae'blis _(talk) 16:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

True - this does need some more reliable sourcing - the history seems a little truncated, to put it mildly - the source mafiastars seems hardly sufficient in terms of credibility. No connection seems to be made between the Sicilian Vespers uprising, let alone any over-arching relationship between Sicily's history of invasion, and a secretive protective society which emerged from that. To insinuate that the mafia spontaneously generated "in the mid-19th century as a means to protect lemon and orange groves" is ludicrous, and shows an ignorance of Sicily's history. It comes across as a pat answer provided by a sensationalistic source.

According to "mafiastars.com" the mafia originated in the 19th century, but many other sources point to a much older - more rural - origination, with heavy urbanization in the 19th century. Does urbanization = origination? Shouldn't the history go back as far as possible? Most sources seem to point to that rural protective society known as the mafia, and explicate that somehow in an urban context the mafia became more "outlaw", and more "criminal".

Here's what the source claims: "The Sicilian Mafia as we know it, actually originated some time during the mid 19th Century. Industrialisation and trade of Italy were the main driving force behind the development of the Sicilian mafia. The Sicilian mafia has always been at the strongest in the west of Sicily, around the city of Palermo, which some people like to call the birthplace of Mafia. Palermo was the center of trade, commerce and politics for the island of Sicily, as opposed to the continental part of the island which was economically underdeveloped when compared to Palermo.

The main source of wealth of the island were the large estates of lemon and orange estates. In the bare begining, the Mafia served as a special kind of protection for the large orange and lemon estates arround Palermo. In its early days, even some members of the ruling aristocracy were the members of the mafia. Maybe the most important member back than was Baron Turrisi Colonna, a well known as a political protector of members of Mafia. This kind of relationship with the Government became characteristic for the Sicilan Mafia."mafiastars.com

Other sources tell a slighly more in-depth story: "In the ninth century, Sicily was occupied by Arab forces. The native Sicilians were oppressed and took refuge in the surrounding hills. The Sicilians formed a secret society to unite the natives against the Arab and Norman invaders. This secret society was called Mafia after the Arabic word for refuge. The society's intentions were to create a sense of family based on ancestry and Sicilian heritage. In the 1700's, pictures of a black hand were distributed to the wealthy. This was an unspoken request for an amount of money in return for protection. If the money wasn't paid, the recipients could expect violence such as kidnappings, bombings, and murder. By the nineteenth century, this society grew larger and more criminally oriented. In 1876, Mafia Don Rafael Palizzolo, ran for political office in Sicily. He forced the voters to vote for him under gunpoint. After being elected into office, he promoted Mafia Don Crispi as Prime Minister. Together the two put Sicily under government control and funnelled government funds to the society known as the Mafia." http://users.aol.com/whizkid01/hist.html

All serious historians discard these kinds of pseudo-science. Instead of visiting unreliable websites try reading a book about the history of the mafia. The Sicilian Vespers have nothing to do with the Mafia. And the theory above is inconsistent: why would 'native Sicilians' take an Arab word to name their secret society? Mafia Expert 19:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Mafia Expert: Doubful all serious historians discard these kinds of, as you say: "pseudo-science." History, as an academic discipline, is concerned with an ever explicated view of past events, in light of research, context, and interpretation. And to say "The Sicilian Vespers have nothing to do with the Mafia" is as obtuse, and ultimately as inconclusive as saying "The pilgrims of the 1600's had nothing to do with the American Revolution," or "Magna Graecia had nothing to do with Rome." True, the etymological advancement of the word Mafia, is shrouded in nebula, and conjecture, but the historical aspect of this article, claiming that the mafia originated in the nineteenth century in Palermo is false. This article needs a more in depth history section. Consider the source. And further; consider the source of the source. Both sources above seem unreliable.

The main problem with the article, as it now stands, is the wording. Sure, the mafia, as it is now defined, emerged from the shadows; and as a word, onto the playwrites' Giuseppe Rizzotto and Gaetano Mosca script pages. Sure, the proliferation within the urban surroundings of Palermo exponetially impacted the mafia's presence and power. But as the article reads, one would think that the mafia emerged from nothing - perhaps even sprouting from an orange or a lemon tree in the groves surrounding Palermo in the 19th century. Serious historians wouldn't put their name to such a feeble assertion. Serious historians would examine the context - the surroundings - the preceeding history - the origins of such an organization. The serious historian would ask; where did these men come from? Who hired them? Where did their tactics come from? How did they know how to protect these lemon groves - what made them experts in this field? The serious historian, would examine the history of Sicily, and find overarching themes, and find distinctive threads of cultural significance. The serious historian, I am sure, would find that the mafia originated from bands of highwaymen and theives. Disgruntled shepherds and farmers. Peasants banding together for protection or for profit. This article does nothing to treat that history, which is why, the article remains invalid. No history is truly "science" - history deals with a paradigm less clear and distinct than that. History deals with themes, with culture, with trends.

To the contributer who does not sign his contributions: I completely agree that the article is hopelesly short on the history of the Mafia. If you would look in the history of this article you would find valuable attempts to write a more explanatory history of the Mafia (without going back to the Sicilian Vespers or the Arab "occupation") but they were all deleted by Mafia buffs who saw their myths about te Mafia being destroyed. Actually I have given up on editing this article, it is constantly vandalized and you constantly have to remove silly myths about the Mafia. If you want to try again, please go ahead. I will follow your attempt closely and try to contribute in a positive way. By the way, this discussion is under the wrong heading, it should no be under Etymology (which is actually not the worst part of the article) but History. Mafia Expert 22:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

"Mahjas" is not an Arabic word; it is a transliteration of an Arabic word. Could someone provide the word in Arabic script, please (the existing text can be kept as a transliteration)? — 193.203.81.129 10:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

History

The article's history of the mafia is largely inaccurate. References appear inadequate, glib, and ultimately invalid.

Have done the best I could with the history section with historical fact. I have also made it clear that the myth of a 'good' mafia turning 'bad' is just that - a myth. Until someone produces historical, factual evidence that proves otherwise then please don't bother deleting it just to satisfy your own love of the cosa nostra

"Other Mafia"

"There are other Mafia's out there, there are even children in schools that want to be like the Mafia and steal from their peers."

This section, right at the end, was obvious done by someone with the literary skill of a tin spoon. I don't have the necessary information, but I'd beg someone who does to change it as soon as possible; it's a disgrace.

redundant

this article is (as i say in my section title) redundant. I was trying to read up on the mafia and though I did learn much, I read about twice as much as I need to. So like I said, I do not know enough, but someone who does:

Please read through the whole article and merge it together, into a shorter more concise, piece

Help me

Tell me about Red Mafia? Yellow Mafia? Buidinhthiem 02:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• Rascist Mafia?CharlesMartel 23:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)CharlesMartel

There are other articles about the Russian mob and Asian crime groups (Triads, Yakuza). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mzucker (talk • contribs)

True Lords

"The Mafia, also referred to in "True Lords" Italian as Cosa Nostra..."

Where do you get "True Lords" from? Please explain what, if anything, this phrase means in this context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.128.220 (talk • contribs)

Specific Families

I was thinking of making articles for specific Mafia families, since this article is just about the Mafia in general. This has already been done for the New York crime families, so why not make articles about other significant families. Does anyone else think this is a good idea, or is it unnecessary? --Mzucker 18:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

• There is a list of wanted crime families at the to do list for WikiProject Organized Crime. MadMax 23:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Nomination for Article Improvment Drive

As per discussion at WikiProject Organized Crime, this article has been nominated as a possible future candidate for the Article Improvment Drive. MadMax 23:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article needs improvement.

Terminology: The origin of the word "Mafia"

The word "Mafia" comes from the Arabic "Ma Fi" "ما في", which, in English, means "not here", and belongs to the period when Sicily was a Muslim/Arab emirate.

During this period, when the authorities wanted to catch an outlaw they went to his home, but the family would answer "Ma Fi", meaning "he is not here". Later the word was used as an expression meaning "outlaw".

Not very useful page

I think this history page should be cleared down. Nothing here adds to the article, which is factual, quotes sources (mostly) and non controversial.Seaneendubh 15:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

MAFIA an acronym?

is that true the word mafia originates from an acronym Morte Alla Francia, Italia Avanti (literally - death to France, Long live Italy)? apparently it was formed by the peasants when France invaded Italy in 1280s to resist the invaders???

Luckyj 14:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

==Rename to Sicilian Mafia== Reason: the therm mafia has became the generic therm for an organized criminal association, such as Russian Mafia or Black Mafia. Sicilian Mafia is just one of these organizations; by the way is not the oldest (Yakuza and Triad are older of centuries); furthermore it has been neihter the first nor the only one to act in U.S.: when Sicilian Mafia began to growth in U.S., Irish mafia and Jewish Mafia were already active. For some reasons that should be discussed, the Sicilian Mafia has became the most famous one in the popolar culture, and the orginal therm 'Mafia' has become the generic word for 'organized crime'; in the U.S. first, and in all the World later. For these reasons I propose to move the article to Sicilian Mafia or to Cosa Nostra. A new article, called 'Mafia'(meaning 'Organized criminal association') should be created; this article might be a subsection of the article Organized crime. A similar criterion is already used in the Italian Wikipedia [1] --Giovanni Giove 14:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge into tag (Cosa Nostra)

The article Cosa Nostra, is clearly reffered to the Sicilian-American mafia. It shall be merged with the present article.--Giovanni Giove 23:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I've already merged the article Cosa Nostra into the present article.--Giovanni Giove 10:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Trashing

I have reverted the edits of Little Joe Shots. This contributor is regurlarly trashing articles on Mafia related issues with unreferenced, unreliable, badly written contributions that lack Wikipedia standards. -- Mafia Expert 11:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Split

Split idea:

• Mafia as criminal organization, such as, Russian mafia, Triads, Cosa Nostra.
• Cosa Nostra (Sicilian mafia)
• American Cosa Nostra (Sicilan American mafia)

--Giovanni Giove 21:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea ! By the way, thanks for cleaning up this article. -- Mafia Expert 08:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

It could work. Alexbonaro 09:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd support a split. At present we have articles such as Estonian mafia, and yet no articles for the much bigger mafias such as the Sicilian mafia. Cordless Larry 21:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the split too. I think the title of Mafia should be retained because people are likely to search for "Mafia" specifically. We could have seperate sub-titles within the article like the Sicilian Mafia and the American Mafia, but briefly explained here in one or two paragraphs and followed by a link to the main article (For more information, see American Mafia; that sort of thing.) Also, I think we'll need a mention on this page to the other two Italian Mafias, the Camorra and the 'Ndrangheta; to my knowledge they are both sometimes referred to as the "Mafia" with the Sicilian's differentiated by being referred to as Cosa Nostra or the Sicilian Mafia. Robert Mercer 20:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Titles

So, it seems it can work. What to sa about the titles?

• Mafia or Mafia organization or Mafia-like organization....
• Cosa Nostra or Cosa Nostra (Sicily) or Sicilian Cosa Nostra..
• Cosa Nostra (U.S.A.) or American Cosa Nostra...

We should descrive in the proper way the difference between a generic criminal organisation, and a mafia-like criminal organization.--Giovanni Giove 17:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Mafia is the right title. After all that is how it is generally known. There should be a redirection of Cosa Nostra. At the top there should be a reference and link to the American Cosa Nostra. The current definitions in the introduction describe the characteristics of the Mafia. In the disambiguation page there should be references to all the other "mafias" and a short explanation that the concept mafia has been generalised from the original Sicilian one. That is what I would propose. -- Mafia Expert 19:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok. What about 'Cosa Nostra'?

Furhtermore, I don't think that the Sicilian one is the 'original' mafia: it is not the oldest one,neither the first to growth it the U.S.--Giovanni Giove 20:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

One other minor point, I think we could lose the "List of Prominant Sicilian Mafiosi". It's growing quite long and could be replaced with a simple link to the Category of Sicilian Mafiosi. Several of the most prominant Mafiosi are already referenced in the main text as well. Thoughts? Robert Mercer 20:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

212.158.244.124 accidentally added these comments to the article instead of this talk page:

There is not a "Russian Mafia". There are many Russian Organised Crime Syndicates but they are not known as "The Mafia". In reality The Mafia is 100% Sicilian. Please read the following:

"Russian mafia” gave place to “Eurasian criminality” 13.12.2006

The new tendency was reported by the head of the Russian National central bureau, Timur Lakhonin at a press-conference held in Moscow on December 12. According to his report, it can be now said for sure that the term "Russian mafia" has almost disappeared from lexicon of international police organizations. "Our partners we closely interact with mark nowadays that the term "Russian mafia" has started to disappear from lexicon giving place to another expression – "Eurasian criminality", which is closer to modern realities". By this expression it is meant criminality from Eastern Europe and countries of the former USSR, - as the head the Russian Interpol bureau commented. Timur Lakhonin also adds that the term "Russian mafia" has now been almost out of usage amongst the Interpol professionals.

--81.79.29.103 00:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

List Of "Proven" and Suspected deaths related to the Mafia

A list of deaths presumed to be or proven to be connected to the mafia would be a great sub or addition to this topic. I would love to get one started but have little or no time to do the required research. Just a thought see if anyone picks it up and runs with it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crandawg (talk • contribs) 23:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

Cosa Nostra: Positive side. (and negative side)

Cosa Nostra: Positive side.

Like the angels some who became fallen angels, the term Cosa Nostra, has been isolated as a merely negative entity, this is not so.

As in governments, each year, each member can be corrupted by the money, the power and the opportunity, so it has been with the Cosa Nostra.

You must remember that there are many elements to any organization, any label, colors of truth, half-truths as I call them.

As many of Italian origin found, coming to America there were the 'opportunists', be they people of Italian backgroun, or non-Italians who used there position of power to attack and prey on Italians. To some the 'Cosa Nostra' was a law outside the law that would deal out justice as should be, ESPECIALLY IF THE SYSTEM WAS CORRUPT.

That should not surprise you, as there are good and bad in all groups, be they jewellers who will change your good quality diamond for a lesser quality one, or a false one, or doctors, nurses, policemen, etc.etc.etc.

So while many of the truths on this listing may be true, or have some element of truth, there is the other half-truth that exposes the need for "Protection" from the corruption from within the system. (Todays property taxes, pay for police protection; do you get it ? ). A vicious circle that can itself be corrupted.

Today with governments becoming involved in drugs, gambling, and taxes, especially property taxes in excess of the cost of living, a form of extortion, we cannot paint one as white and the other as black; there needs to be a more critical assessment of each, with the full understanding that truths adn abservations are realtive to time.

I will come back to this with sources, but in the mean time look yourselves for this face of 'Cosa Nostra'; the positive one. Other labels missing is 'Black Hand' the criminal label given to a gang, and The Mafia in general, a term originally given to 'mafiosi', rich, powerful people of influence, and not necessarily criminal.

Bottom line, there was a good side to the Cosa Nostra, possibly the original intentions behind it, that should not be ignored. Case in point, in the Wizard of Oz you have the good witches and the bad ones.

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The 'bias' of history can easily be seen by the contrast in treating individuals. In focus is Joseph Kennedy Senior, considered by many the biggest 'bootlegger' in American history. Well he was in the system, and because of such was never labelled and as focused as the Italians were in general. The question is howe much of this insider information, and other activities, were overlooked for "these people" ? Was there two systems at work here ? Would the recordings of history suggest this might be so ?

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 05:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

"Many Sicilians did not regard these men as criminals but as role models and protectors, given that the state appeared to offer no protection of the poor and weak. As late as the 1950s, the funeral epitaph of the legendary boss of Villalba, Calogero Vizzini, stated that "his 'mafia' was not criminal, but stood for respect of the law, defense of all rights, greatness of character. It was love." Here, "mafia" means something like pride, honor, or even social responsibility: an attitude, not an organization. Likewise, in 1925, the former Italian Prime Minister Vittorio Emanuele Orlando stated in the Italian senate that he was proud of being "mafioso", because that word meant honorable, noble, generous."

This is aleady included in the definition and from my research a correct observation. The key is that the power given to these people of position, could easily be exploited for negative purposes, its that simple. Do we call all Catholic Priests pedofiles, because some corrupted their opportunities ? No !

It is the 'black hand' that usually referred to the criminal element, and the term 'Cosa Nostra' and "Mafioso" were more about the positive positions of guardians, mutual respect and integrity. The governments of today, show how easy it is for these individuals to be corrupted. This critical realm of reality is no differnt than any other group; there are the good, the bad, and the evil.

It is not that the label was criminal merely the individuals who were corrupted by the money, the power and greed...

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 05:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

In the movie, "The Godfather" there is a scene where 'he' is lying in bed in a hospital, and it seems 'the system' is out to kill him, his son finds out about this and protect their father in the hospital from an apparent 'set up', the legal protection system had been corrupted.

Well here is an insight, from a police offficer in todays paper:

By Andre Lichtenfeld, ex-Thunder Bay policeman Jan 8, 2007, 00:57

Expoliceman Two tier Legal System

"I can say with great pleasure and pride, that I have served this community well with dignity, respect and equality when dealing in all aspects of the law.

As a constable, I’ve always thought that treating all persons as equals was a quality that mattered in performing my job as a police officer to the best of my ability.

Approximately 10 years ago (1996) I quickly discovered that there was an implied two tiers of the justice system — one for the common folk and another for those persons of “prominence” who actually thought they were above the law, due to their position of power or stature within society, or social club they belonged to.

Since 1996, my family and I have endured a tremendous amount of stress, sleepless nights and intended public humiliation at the hands of this controlling second tier of society and their “connections,” to ensure this policeman “gets what he deserves” for stepping out of line. (In reality, meaning telling the truth, not hiding the truth)

For more than 15 years, I’ve had to bite my tongue, turn the other cheek as the inconsistencies, unethical actions and corrupt practices of this second tier society ate away at me, nearly destroying my ideas of what a police officer should be, act like and do with the powers vested in him.

On Oct. 11, 2006, I resigned/retired from the Thunder Bay Police Force. Financially, it has been a challenge, however now my family and I are released from the clutches of the so-called prominent and their corrupters. Our lives have been enriched greatly by being a complete family again.

My family, friends and society alike know I spoke the truth 10 years ago, and also know that these past three years have been retaliation only, and nothing else, with the sole purpose to destroy my reputation as an honest, loyal, fair and respectable person. I guess in some way it will enable the corrupters to simply dismiss my facts as fiction, in the event their indiscretions ever became public via a book or otherwise.

I am not a bad or “disgraced” officer as The Chronicle-Journal has described me in the past. I am very proud that I have not become part of the “system,” and that I have not lost my empathy, respect and love for life and this community. I will continue to serve this community as I have for over 24 years with the same qualities that I believe in and teach my children — honesty, tell the truth, work hard and be proud.

Thunder Bay Police Officer - Ordeal I Won't Forget, January 8th, 2007

(this following complaints that some high level people were engaged in prostitution, and the only person convicted was the son of a former preacher, the then crown attorney)

So you see, time has not changed the situation as much, although some 60 years ago, I doubt it very much that the Chicago Sun would have printed t his.

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

So this positive( + ) and negative ( - ) side can be best explained by a story we all should know.... Cain and Abel

The Torah presents a brief account of the brothers. It states that Cain was a tiller of the land while his younger brother Abel was a shepherd, and that one day they both offered a sacrifice to God, Cain offering fruit and grain, and Abel offering the fat, fatlings, or milk as Josephus has it (the possible renderings of the consonantal Hebrew) from the firstborn of his flock. For an unspecified reason, God favors Abel's offering, and subsequently Cain murders Abel, for another unspecified reason, often assumed simply to be jealousy over God's favoritism. The Torah continues with God approaching Cain asking about Abel's whereabouts. In a response that has become a well-known saying, Cain answers, "Am I my brother's keeper?"

The names are changed but the story is basically the same...in any ethnic group, in every tribe, in all colors of the rainbow....

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Mafioso

As related to "Cosa Nostra", Mafioso, was an important looking person, sometimes powerful, mostly rich, always well dresed, and was given referred to as a 'mafioso style'. This person was considered to be 'mafioso'. Someone like Mr. Trump, or Kennedy. Now comes the tricky part. Some may have been criminal, some not. That was not the distinction, as to why they were given this title.

It has come to be a false norm as to see people who are well dressed as 'mafia', ie organized crime, and you might say they are if you believe that all businessmen, politicians and lawyers are criminal, but that is going to far.

Seems the word, and its use, misuse is being changed by the 'forces' at play, but it current use is not correct.

Gangsters, or black hand are two other names, that may apply to 'mafioso' but not the real focus; this is all about half-truths.

Mafioso was more about arrogance in appearance.

"Here are some words related to 'arrogant"... synonyms...

as in cool, ...affected, extravagant, flamboyant, fustian, grand, high-flown, imposing, impressive, lofty, lordly, magnificent, majestic, monumental, noble, ostentatious, overwhelming, pompous, pretentious, princely, showy, stately, ..

Mafiosi:  " They were wearing suits "

The term 'mafiosi' is always used in a negative sense in North America and refers to the criminal element, however that was not always so.

I recall the time a student from China commented about the Italian Cultural Center in our town, and stated she had seen the 'mafia outside'. I asked her what led her to believe they were 'mafia'. Her response was that they were wearing 'suits'.

Well the term mafiosi, use to refer to individuals who were well dressed, and imposing, but the criminal meaning was not apart of it. It is like saying the Prime Minster wears a trench coat, criminals wear trench coats, therefore the Prime Minister is a criminal; the logic of this word is somewhat flawed.

The term mafioso, was about appearance not criminality.

Are some criminals arrogant, yes, but not all arrogant people are criminals...

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Not all Mafia members are...

Sicilian. For instance, John Gotti was Napolitan. As they said when he ascended to power, "Beware, the serpent lies coiled in Naples." The claim that non-Sicilians can't rise past the level of 'Associate' is patently false and the article should be amended accordingly.-PassionoftheDamon 00:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The Mafia in the American popular culture: Chronology?

Would anyone object to organizing the "The Mafia in the American popular culture" section chronologically (by either order of release or topically?) It comes across (to my eye) a little disjointed. BaikinMan 20:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

maffia

hello —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.68.200.25 (talk) 12:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

? Mafia was hurt bad in 70's and 80's.

People say now that central american narco drug rings are the new mafia, etc. The old mafia was crippled by the FBI, and all the informants, undercovers. It is nothing like it used to be! Not too many hits going on nowadays, used to be gang wars. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.192.101.77 (talk) 22:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

Gigante's Family Structure

I'm confused, where exactly does Street Boss and Family Messenger lie within the Mafia strucutre?

Mafia vs. Mob

The use of the term mafia to refer to the mob is common, but also incorrect; similar to using Russia to refer to the USSR. This should be noted in the article. Objections? If not, then I'll make the necessary changes twenty-four hours from now. If someone has an objection, but holds his or her piece during that twenty-four-hour period, then please make it known here before making any contrary edits, and I will work with you to come to a consensus. MVMosin 22:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)