Talk:Jared Taylor

If we label him "disgusting" some might view that as expressing a POV without providing any information. Better to describe actual things that he did or said which would allow the reader to make up their own mind about him. Be bold, find some good sources, and add to this article. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:44, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Don't you think it's a little biased to have all those references to leftist "anti-racist" sites? One ought to suffice.

The first link isn't really worth anyone's time to read. It's just trying to demonise Taylor by associating him with figures it claims are 'neo-fascist' despite the fact that they explicity say they aren't (See British National Party/Nick Griffin). This article from a "progressive" website is the very definition of bias. It's not information, it's defamation. -The boy that picked flowers and made people laugh

I just wanted to note that while I personally disagree with many of the decidedly unrealistic and silly conclusions Taylor reaches (separation of the races within America, etc.) and find him to be a tad obnoxious at times, if you read his information at no point does he advocate or argue the supremacy of whites. Taylor is very comfortable in acknowledging that Ashkenazi Jews (whom he considers white for all intents and purposes) and north Asians score higher on IQ tests than Anglo whites. Therefore, trying to claim Jared Taylor is a white supremacist is both unproductive and demonstrably untrue. Just my two cents.65.92.53.132 10:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Pepe

If pressed, Taylor might also admit that Blacks are better basketball players. But none of that rules out white supremacism, which is more concerned with who holds power. If Taylor wrote that because Jews and Asians are more intelligent they should therefore be in control, then he certainly would not be a white supremacist. -Will Beback 22:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

That is some extremely fallacious logic you are using there my friend.

"If Taylor wrote that because Jews and Asians are more intelligent they should therefore be in control, then he certainly would not be a white supremacist."

Since when is that the definition or litmus test for who is and is not a white supremacist? If you look at the etymology or construction of the phrase "white supremacist", I think that it is both rather clear (not to mention redundant) to glean that it is one who advocates the SUPREMACY of whites. While Jared Taylor certainly possesses his own biases concerning both individuals and societies (in favor of western Anglo-Caucasians and the civilizations they have created), he has NEVER asserted the supremacy of this racial/ethnic group in any of his writings, and I would ask you to provide even a single piece of evidence to back this claim.

Taylor certainly IS a white nationalist and white separatist (IMO the former possibly having some validity and the latter being a ridiculous and quixotic belief system) but there is an absolute absence of proof with regards to the "Jared Taylor as advocate of white supremacy" claim.

As an aside, you noted,

"But none of that rules out white supremacism, which is more concerned with who holds power. If Taylor wrote that because Jews and Asians are more intelligent they should therefore be in control[...]"

While "none of that" rules out white supremacism, it also in no way proves that Jared Taylor IS a white supremacist. While I will concede that absence of proof is not proof of absence, using double negative reasoning (ie: "Well prove to me that Jared Taylor ISN'T a white supremacist!") does not make for a particularly convincing argument.

Furthermore, to state that the only way that Jared Taylor can prove he is not a white supremacist is to advocate that only people of Asian and Jewish descent should maintain power is ludicrous. Doing so would be an advocation for aristocracy (ie "rule by the best) which is in direct conflict with America's democratic republic form of governance, meaning by your logic Mr. Taylor can only prove he is not a white supremacist by asserting his anti-democratic bona fides.

Also worth noting is that the census for the year 2000 states that 69% of Americans are Caucasian. Even if we were to assume that Ashkenazi Jews are counted twice as both Eastern European descended Caucasians and as Jews (as Judaism is labelled a religion and not necessarily an ethnicity or separate racial grouping), that would still leave us with a population comprised of 67% non-Jewish white citizens, 2% ethnic Jewish citizens and 4% Asian citizens. Now when you say "in control" I'm going to (while going out on a rather large limb) assume that you're speaking of representation within government. In that case, even if we were to assume that the genetically inherited cognitive abilities of both Jews and Asians would allow both groups to be over-represented in government at twice the rate of a "less able" racial group (at 4% and 8% respectively), the net composition of government in the United States would STILL be comprised of a statistical majority of white citizens.

Your reasoning as to how Jared Taylor is supposed to prove himself a non white supremacist is flawed, undemocratic and lacks basic logic (both stastically speaking and otherwise).65.92.49.185 09:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)Pepe

If you read the discussion above my message you'll see that another unregistered user, or maybe you, said that Taylor can't be a supremacist because of X, Y, Z. I was simply saying that that is not true, that X,Y, or Z do not contradict supremacism. Ultimately, it is our job, as Wikipedia editors, to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. If you search Google you will find that Taylor is frequently called a supremacist. That's why we call him one, not because he meets our own criteria. Cheers, -Will Beback 02:41, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I certainly agree that it's fine to include criticism of Jared Taylor, and if that criticism happens to take the form of his detractors labelling him a "white supremacist" then so be it. The problem in my view is that Jared Taylor's detractors are using spurious (and even non existant) logic, combined with emotional anti-racist hysterics when forming their criticisms. One can search the internet and find proponents of flat Earth theory, but that does not, in fact, make the Earth flat. Likewise, if Jared Taylor's critics choose to label him a white supremacist, while that is lovely, it would seem that their characterization is bereft of proof given that they cannot point to a single writing or statement made by Mr. Taylor advocating the supremacy of whites.

Say I were to label you a pedophile and "publish" that characterization on the internet in a manner that made it suitable as a outside source citable for Wikipedia. Despite the fact that I have no proof that you are a pedophile (and for the record, I sincerly doubt you are one) and despite the fact that I can point to no action, statement or writing on your behalf that would confirm your pedophiliac tendencies, my purely opinionative statement would be considered a valid detracting characterization of you as an individual. In my view, such an action is directly analogous to the behavior Jared Taylor's critics are engaging in.

"Well, we have no empirical evidence upon which to conclude that Jared Taylor is a white supremacist, but we think he's a tad too well-spoken, and generally a big racist meanie and I think he sounds like a white supremacist so, ergo, he is one."

You're including an opinion (devoid of any proof or citation) and doing so would seem to be inherently POV and in direct conflict with Wikipedia's policy on the issue. If you can find a characterization of Jared Taylor as a white supremacist that bases the assertion on any proof (including statements made by Mr. Taylor or writings published by Mr. Taylor) then I would certainly encourage you to keep the dissenting characterization. Otherwise, such a depiction would seem to be inherently POV and in conflict with the Wkipedia policy.

Not to mention the fact that anytime I see the SPLC used a source, it immediately sets off my bullshit detector. If you are not aware of what I am speaking of, I would refer you to the November 2000 article published in Harper's Magazine, entitled 'The Church of Morris Dees', which can be found here: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a3e5cb925c4.htm

It is not for us to evaluate the accuracy of a criticism. All we can do is failry summarize the criticism and the rebuttal, if any. I've added some more details from Potok's criticism of Taylor to answer your concern that we are repeating a claim that has no supporting evidence. -Will Beback 21:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Let's review the additional information and see if it is merely opinion or actual proof of Jared Taylor being a white supremacist, shall we? I'll dissect the points in reverse order.

1. "Potok calls The Color of Crime, "a booklet that tries to use crime statistics so as to 'prove' that blacks are far more criminally prone than whites."

The Color of Crime cites statistics provided by the US Depatment of Justice and state correctional authorities; Jared Taylor isn't simply making up his own statistics nor is he distorting the provided statistics.

For instance, current statistics show that blacks are represented are imprisioned at a rate of around 1100 per 100,000 as compared to whites at less than 200 per 100,000 (approximately 180). Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime

Also, nation-wide as of 1997, non-Hispanic whites comprised 34.8 percent of the prisoners, African-Americans 46.9 percent, Hispanics 16.0 percent, and others 2.3 percent. Given that black Americans comprise 13% of the population yet 46.9% of prison inmates (a massive over-representation), it would seem that blacks are more "prone" to commit crimes due simply to the fact that they as a group are being imprisioned at a higher rate (causation of the criminal behavior aside).

links for data:

http://www.isteve.com/Crime_Imprisonment_Rates_by_Race.htm

http://www.isteve.com/crime_imprisonment_data_by_state_by_race.htm

It would seem that Mark Potok's anger should be directed at the study of statistics and human beings ability to count what their eyes see, rather than Jared Taylor.

Now that we've established that Mr. Taylor's statistics (and the citation of said statistics) is correct, let's address the adjectives he attaches to black Americans AS A GROUP (nowhere does he label ALL black Americans or INDIVIDUAL black Americans as such). "Crime-prone," "dissipated," "pathological" and "deviant" are the adjectives used. I believe we have already established that black Americans are more "prone" (having a tendency) to commit crimes. Secondly, as for the charge that black Americans are "dissipated", Mark Potok does not clarify whether Jared Taylor means "intemperate in the pursuit of pleasure" or "wasted or squandered". If Mr. Taylor is referring to the former, I can dig up the race based statistics on drug consumption, teen pregnancy and illegitimacy (drug use and sex being two rather obvious pleasurable behaviors) if you like. If Mr. Taylor is referring to the latter, I don't really see how anyone can argue that the current rate of black incarceration is anything BUT a waste. In any event, since when are either of those comments decidedly pejorative and indicative of white supremacy? Moving right alone, let's tackle "pathological", meaning "of, relating to, or manifesting behavior that is habitual, maladaptive, and compulsive". Given that the black imprisionment statistics have either stayed static or increased over the last century, explain how that is anything other than habitual. Also, given that our society universally views criminal behavior as unacceptable and detrimental to society at large, any group that shows disproportionately high levels of criminal behavior is arguably exhibiting maladaptive tendencies in relation to the societal norms. Lastly, "deviant": given that deviant means differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society, and given that our society does not accept criminal behavior and black Americans are committing crimes at a higher rate (or deviating from the societal norm at a higher rate), I cannot see a refute to this characterizaztion.

Lastly, while it's nice that Mark Potok labels the Council of Conservative Citizens as racist, he does not provide a justification or citation for THIS characterization either. Also, one might want to question Mr. Potok as to whether or not we are now playing a game of "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon: Racism Edition", as he feels content to characterize private citizens as "white supremacists" without bothering to cite any proof and based merely upon the individual's constitutionally protected right to freedom of association.

Why not simply state, "It is the personal opinion of Mark Potok that Jared Taylor is a racist, etc." OR "Mark Potok characterizes Mr. Taylor as a "racist"; though he has as yet declined to cite as basis for this characterization". That would seem a lot simpler than adding a bunch of decidedly POV mumbo-jumbo courtesy of Mr. Potok.

It is not our job to decide if Taylor or a supremacist, a realist, a human, or anything else. All we can do is summarize sources, not judge proof. If you have some additional sources which provide a diferent viewpoint then let's summarize those too. -Will Beback 05:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I think this ariticle would be improved by removing the last paragraph with the quotes by Mark Potok. It's enough to say that he has critics and to name those critics, but you don't need direct quotes from his critics especially with none from Taylor himself. -James S. 09:26, 09 March 2006 (PST)

We can summarize the criticism, but we should not remove it. If there is a direct quote from Taylor that you think would nehance the article then please add it. -Will Beback 23:04, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

links

Why do we have external links to ADL and SLPC. Those organizations are not an authority on determining who is who. They pursue their own political agendas and are not qualified to judge anybody. Those links must be removed.

We have links to those organizations because they have made significant comments about the subject. -Will Beback 00:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Fortunately, the Internet is a much bigger information space then Wikipedia, and by being biased against whites, the Wikipedia project is going the same way as the "Mainstream" Media - dead end.

Wikipedia is biased against racists, as well it should be. Bastie 15:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not biased against racists or Whites, and should not be. Wikipedia is meant to comprehensively report objective observations, and at best draw rational conclusions, not to condemn or promote any particular worldview. Capiche? This article is objective, comprehensive and rational on the topic, as it should be. --SohanDsouza 05:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Jared Taylor has personally told me that he is more of a paleolibertarian than anything else. Now since that is anecdotal you may not believe me. But, ee has written for the Last Ditch, which is libertarian, and wrote in praise of Democracy the God that Failed on two sites(one of which is his own) while praising the Mises Institute in the VDare column. The links are here and here http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/ http://www.amren.com/0201issue/0201issue.html#article2 and http://www.vdare.com/taylor/hoppe.htm I don't see how you can use the term white nationalist while using the term paleolibertarian considering white nationalism can be used to mean a lot of different things while paleolibertarian may mean something that is not usually nationalistic. That's why I changed his opening sentence from paleoconservative, white nationalist to paleolibertarian, racalist. Why is that wrong? I will go ahead and do it and have someone tell me why I am wrong if that comes up

If we don't have a reliable source for his political inclination we should omit it. -Will Beback · † · 22:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Considering those sources are reliable since they are all from his own mouth I believe they should not be omitted.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was if we don't have a source for his political inclinations then we shouldn't label him. None of the three sources you list include the prefix "Paleo". If we decide on our own that the views expressed in his essays are those of a paleolibertarian then that's original research, forbidden by WP:OR. At most we might say that he's expressed sympathy for paleolibertarian views. -Will Beback · † · 17:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok if that is the case, then the previous paleoconservative, white nationalist label was under that category and nobody here protested even though there was not evidence constituting for that other than his vdare articles opposed to citizenism. If someone wanted to take down the current label and put nothing in its place, then that would be fine with me. But if someone is going to put what was previous to it, then I will have to protest.

I have restored “White Nationalist” to the lead. Doing an advanced Google search of Amren brings up multiple citable sources; however, the one I choose to use gives a broader range of Taylor’s views on the subject than any specific example from Amren. Clearly the readers and writers of Amren see themselves as Paoloconservative, as per a google search, but in searching Amren I could not find anything to directly tie that label to Taylor, nor could I find anything of him or his readers embracing the label paleolibertarian. Brimba 20:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I am a reader of Amren and know other readers from amren. There are many who do not seem themselves paleoconservatives. I ran an advanced google search with paleolibertarian and found multiple citable sources. On the Amren site, there is nothing that says white nationalism. So I am taking it off

white nationalist = 355 [1]

white nationalism = 226 [2]

paleolibertarian = 2 both in reference to Lew Rockwell [3]

Brimba 01:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I never said the search under white nationalist did not have more but that still doesn't refute my point of pointing out that on the American Renaissance site it does not mention white nationalism. It mentions race and being pro-European/White.

From Wikipedia, "Nationalism is a political ideology[1] that holds that a nation is the fundamental unit for human social life, and takes precedence over any other social and political principles." Now where does Taylor say anything like this that the White race takes precedence over any social or political principle? That is what is implied by White nationalism.

This sentence in the article should be deleted:

Sentence

<< Potok quotes Taylor as writing that African Americans are "crime-prone," "dissipated," "pathological" and "deviant." >>

According to Wikipedia guidelines, "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable," but Potok provides no sources for these claims.

Assuming that I actually used these words in some discussion of blacks (this is Jared Taylor writing), it is impossible to know whether I was writing about one black, some blacks, or all blacks. The implicaiton, of course, is that I think all blacks are "pathological," "deviant," etc., which is something I have never thought, never said, and never written.

The sentence should therefore be removed permanently because it is unsourced and therefore unverifiable, and because it is a deliberate distortion of my views.

68.227.194.12 03:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)Jared Taylor68.227.194.12 03:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

It is verifiable that Potok quotes Taylor as saying those things.[4] If Taylor wants to publish as denial we can print that too. -Will Beback · † · 04:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure which terms Taylor denies using. But I see he has written,

• Blacks are the most dangerous, crime-prone group in America ...[5]

So there's some verifiability of the original quotations, not that we need it. -Will Beback · † · 04:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

To Will Beback on Mark Potok quote.

I am certainly not denying that Mark Potok has written the sentence included in this article. I think it is a silly distortion of my writing, but if it is to remain in the article, I would appreciate it if the following reply from me could be included:

<< Mr. Potok bases his criticsm on the following paragraph:

"If blacks, for example, are equal to whites in every way, what accounts for their poverty, criminality, and dissipation? Since any theory of racial differences has been outlawed, the only possible explanation for black failure is white racism. And since blacks are markedly poor, crime-prone, and dissipated, America must be racked with a pervasive and horrible racism. Nothing else could be keeping them—-the undisputed equals of whites—-in such an abject state."

I challenge Mr. Potok to find any passage from my writing that describes blacks as a group as "pathological" or "deviant." >> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.227.194.12 (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Request for my reply to be added to the main article.

I have noted above that I think a qotation from Mark Potok is an unfair distortion. In this connection, Mr. Beback wrote:

<< It is verifiable that Potok quotes Taylor as saying those things.[4] If Taylor wants to publish as denial we can print that too. -Will Beback · † · 04:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)>>

Therefore I would be grateful if my reply to Mr. Potok, indicated above and repeated below, could be added to the article:

<< Mr. Potok bases his criticsm on the following paragraph:

"If blacks, for example, are equal to whites in every way, what accounts for their poverty, criminality, and dissipation? Since any theory of racial differences has been outlawed, the only possible explanation for black failure is white racism. And since blacks are markedly poor, crime-prone, and dissipated, America must be racked with a pervasive and horrible racism. Nothing else could be keeping them—-the undisputed equals of whites—-in such an abject state."

I challenge Mr. Potok to find any passage from my writing that describes blacks as a group as "pathological" or "deviant." >>

Jared Taylor

No response from Wikipedia to Jared Taylor

On May 16, 2007, I sent the following message to Wikipedia staff, which remained unaswered two weeks later:

Dear Sir or Madam:

I am the subject of the following article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Taylor and would like to request several corrections and clarifications.

(1) The following sentence is incorrect:

<< Taylor also sits on the advisory board of The Occidental Quarterly and is a director of the National Policy Institute, a Washington-based think tank. >>

At one time it was accurate, but I am no longer on the advisory board of The Occidental Quarterly nor am I any longer a director of the National Policy Institute.

(2) The following sentence is also incorrect:

<< New Century Foundation published the report contributed to by Taylor The Color of Crime: Race, Crime and Violence in America (1998, 2005) which singles out African Americans and Hispanics as the chief cause of crime in America. >>

Blacks and Hispanics commit violent crimes at considerably higher rates than whites or Asians, but they are *not* the chief cause(s) of crime, because they are minorities of 12 percent and 13 percent respectively. Because whites are still a majority of the American population, they account for a considerable amount of crime even though they commit crime at lower rates than blacks or Hispanics. The following sentence would be accurate:

“New Century Foundation published the report contributed to by Taylor The Color of Crime: Race, Crime and Violence in America (1998, 2005) which uses government crime statistics to show that blacks and Hispanics commit violent crimes at considerably higher rates than whites or Asians.”

(3) The following sentence is a silly distortion of my views:

<< Potok quotes Taylor as writing that African Americans are "crime-prone," "dissipated," "pathological" and "deviant." >>

This string of out-of-context adjectives is not serious or legitimate criticism. Mr. Potok presumably bases part of his criticism on the following paragraph of which I am the author:

"If blacks, for example, are equal to whites in every way, what accounts for their poverty, criminality, and dissipation? Since any theory of racial differences has been outlawed, the only possible explanation for black failure is white racism. And since blacks are markedly poor, crime-prone, and dissipated, America must be racked with a pervasive and horrible racism. Nothing else could be keeping them—the undisputed equals of whites—in such an abject state."

I think it is important for readers to know in what context I used the words “crime-prone” and “dissipated.” As for “pathological” and “deviant,” I can find no instance in my own work of having described blacks – either individually or as a group – as “pathological” or “deviant.” Perhaps Mr. Potok made this up, in which case the “quotation” is, in part, false.

I would suggest that Mr. Potok’s sentence of criticism of removed. Mr. Potok can express his opinions about me all he wants, but it is not fair to pass off his spurious and out-of-context “quotations” from my own work as a legitimate representation of what I think.

(4) The following sentence and paragraph are extremely misleading:

<< Right-wing Jewish critics have described elliptical statements by Taylor concerning the Holocaust as indicating a latent anti-Semitism. >>

There is no sense in which I am “latently anti-Semitic” or a Holocaust denier. I have had Jewish collaborators in every aspect of my political work. The charge of Holocaust denial is easily shown to be false. In response to a question as to whether the Nazi genocide resulted on the death of six million Jews, I replied, simply, that I had not looked into it. I meant, of course, the figure of six million, which is the only aspect of that question about which I would expect there to be debate.

I understand that estimates of the death toll range from four to six million. I have nothing approaching the historical expertise to determine which estimates are the most accurate. To interpret my reply of “not having looked into it” to mean that I somehow doubted the Holocaust itself, is not only absurd but malicious.

I strongly urge that this entire section be taken out.

I realize you have a lot of work to do, but inaccuracies, distortions, and malicious charges are hurtful. I would appreciate your making these corrections at your earliest convenience.

Sincerely yours, Jared Taylor