Talk:Scam

Long Introduction?

The introduction before the TOC seems to be very long. I know I've seen a tag for this, but I don't know it off hand. Ghostwo 06:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Cialdini

Some of the work of Robert Cialdini should be incoporated into the article to highlight the pschlogical factors that lead to many of these types of cons being successful.

A Really Bad Article

This is a really bad article. It should be stricken in its entirety and another article written, by someone who knows confidence tricks and knows how to write logically and grammatically.

^^^My thoughts exactly. Whoever wrote the bulk of this article needs to go back to 4th grade and pick up where they left off learning English. (Also---Ocean's 11, The Italian Job, etc. are not about con games. A robbery is not a con game.)

If this article is not redone, at least fix this sentence: "The victim is then urged to forward the apparent value of the check to the trickster as cash, which they may do before discovering the cheque bounces." The spelling of the word "check" should probably not change in the same sentence. Also, this sentence does not seem to be grammatically correct. 209.189.245.114 05:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)E

Actually Ocean's 11 is a robbery that was possible because of multiple confidence tricks. Mr Goodbyte 15:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Online Casino Scam

Yes the confidence scam related to online casinos really does work. Check out www.casinoflaw.com if you don't believe me. I signed up for two accounts for 200 each. The system claims that if you play roulette and bet on the dozens after L, M, or H (L,M and H refers to each of the groups of dozens on the roulette wheel i.e. L = 1-12 M = 13-24 and etc.) doesn't appear for five spins you can't lose as long as you follow the betting list the site provides. The list consists of eleven bet amounts which progressively increase. The idea is that if you win any of your eleven bets you will net between $1 to $3. Point being that the chance of any of the groups of dozens not coming out more than 16 times in a row is unlikely (i.e. 5 spins no L + 11 spins betting progressive amounts = 16 spins in which one you are guaranteed to hit do to a flaw in the casinos programming and the fact that the chances of one group of dozens not coming out 16 times in a row is 1/535. This scam does not work as I can tell you from trying it myself it is quite common for any one dozen to not come out for 16spins.

New post

Care needs to be taken with the list of "Famous convicted and alleged con artists". The reference to Howard Berg points to an unrelated individual with the same name. Having Matthew Lesko in a list of famous grifters is stretching the description a bit much. He belongs in this list no more than any other guy selling questionable products on midnight television. I'm changing both of these now. Sphivo 12:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

              Uri Geller Is not a con artist. He is a Performer, like David Copperfield, or Chriss Angel.

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Family member. the con artist might be a family member of the mark.And the mark would not want to hurt said con artist by going to the police

Seems really unlikely to me.... ---

Bias

The following seems to be irrelevant and biased.

"These popular psychology tricksters often employ popular assumptions about the brain and the cerebral hemispheres that are scientifically wrong, but attractive and easy to believe. Similar scams involve the use of brain machines to alter brain waves, and intelligence amplification "

Seems like someone is giving their hobby horse a whipping. It's just about as relevant as the following:-

The pharmaceutical con

Pharamaceutical companies often sell drugs at massive profit to consumers desperate to recuperate from fatal and chronic illnesses, despite some of these drugs demonstrating less than 50% efficacy in randomised double blind studies. At the same time, the pharmaceuticals fund 'independent' studies that dismiss the efficacy of naturally occurring compounds (where patent claim cannot be made).

Yours sincerely - --~~CS~~

We should now consider the distinction between a confidence trick and fraud. Is there one? Should we have two articles? Which does Ponzi belong to? What about people like Robert Maxwell? -- The Anome 09:27, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Confidence game is essentially a subset of fraud and I there is no clear-cut border between them. One definition I have heard about is that in confidence game, the culprit takes people in their "confidence", offering them "unique opportunity" or "deal they should not miss" and use money they give for his own purposes. The trick is based either on the mark's dishonesty or gullibility. In other forms of fraud like embezzlement, people who are involved with it, usually know exactly what they are doing and they are often financiers, accountants and CEOs who need not to convince anyone. I am sure this explanation breaks down in some level. - Skysmith 10:36, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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Also, "The Color of Money", the sequel to "The Hustler".

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Confidence tricks in general exploit the inherent greed and dishonesty of their victims; it has been said by confidence tricksters that it is impossible to con a completely honest man. Often, the mark tries to out-cheat the conmen, only to discover that they have been manipulated into this.

This really seems to be the Hollywood version of con games, which I don't think the article is about (though in fact it's not clear). Real life cheatin' generally isn't quite so romantic. - toh 23:57, 2004 Dec 23 (UTC)

No, this is a very common form of scam. -- The Anome 13:37, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

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Perhaps someone could add something about the differences between short (i.e. short term, low gain cons, such as "follow the lady") and long cons (i.e. long term, typically more elaborate, higher gain cons). I would but my knowledge of the topic is rather limited.

clear it up...

The pigeon drop scam is poorly written and can be interpreted in a number of ways. Can someone who knows the scam well, write a more clear description of the scam?

More information please

The description of the "Big Store" scam could use a little more detail - for example, it would be nice if it mentioned in passing what a "Big Store" scam actually is, instead of merely referring us to a movie and a book to which we may not actually have any access.

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Do fake university degrees, diplomas, or listings in worthless who-is-who directories count as fraud, cons, scams, or something else? (1) If the receiver believes in the diploma? (2) If the receiver knows the diploma is fake but uses it fraudulently, e.g. to apply for a job for which they are not qualified? See for example the Académie Parisienne des Inventeurs. --LA2 July 2, 2005 01:42 (UTC)

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I do not understand why Wikipedia would be considered as a famous or alleged con (see "wikipedia, claims that a community opinion is a 'free encyclopedia'"). I think a con involves an element of intent to obtain financial gain.

Pigeon drop inconsistency

The Pigeon Drop section in this article does not match up with the separate article (Pigeon drop); which one is correct? --Nibble 04:31, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Added "Stolen Cheques" due to personal experience

I run a website and recently we played along with the "Stolen Cheque" guys after they bombarded our email server with their spam. We wanted to see how it worked. Upon receiving the cheques, we notified the affected businesses, providing all the details we had (bank accounts, phone numbers, etc) and returned the cheques. Both companies, AT&T and Toronto Dominion Insurance (TDI) told us this is very common, and usually results form cheques actually issued, such as to pay a corporate utility bill, and stolen at the point of delivery, in the case of the AT&T cheque it was stolen from the Ontario Hydro mail room. The total of the 2 cheques was over $60,000.00. Mattwilkins 21:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Another aphorism

"You can't cheat an honest man" is a good principle. Another relevant aphorism, regarding poker, but perhaps with relevance to this topic, is: "Look around the table, and try to spot the sucker. If you can't, it's you." (Of course, some scams exploit even this, by providing a confederate who appears to the mark to be the sucker.) -- The Anome 13:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Cat out of the bag

I am 99 percent certain the etymology of this comes from a cat o'nine tails... You know you're in trouble when the "cat" is out of the bag...

Travel Scam?

This article redirects from Travel Scam but I see no mention of it. Sophistifunk 05:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I have the same problem, why does it redirect if there is absolutely nothing on the subject???

Job Scam

A scam that is very common in Brazil is a job offer with very high wages and benefits, but where the candidates are supposed to accomplish some succesful deals in order to get the position. Out of desperation, the candidates end by selling the services/goods to family and friends, oftend funding themselves the transaction. More often than not the services/goods are highly overpriced and impossible to sell otherwise. If one of the candidates, by chance, meets his/her quota, the con artits will just tell that "they had more candidates than they expected and now they are forced to raise the bar, and s/he will be offered the position if s/he sells five more units." The proccess go on until the mark runs out of money or hope.

Lookie-lou

Not sure of the exact spelling, but is the name of the con used in Ocean's 12 involving Tess?

line

The space in front of the line starting "Finding a con artist is relatively hard" makes it run all on one line and be inside a box. Is it intended to be that way? Bubba73 (talk), 05:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Flim flam

Flim flam links to this article, but Flim flam is not mentioned anywhere in the article. If flim flam is another name for confidence trick, I think it should be mentioned near the top. Bubba73 (talk), 05:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I definately think Scientology is a proven Con of the religious sort. Discussion?

Movie, books, et cetera lists

I am of the opinion that it would be better to trim this list down to only fictional works primarily about con-men, if we are to keep it at all. Also, the items missing abstracts should have them. Are others of accord? —Casey J. Morris 04:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Coin collecting scam

"Coin collecting scamis a scam that preys on unexperianced coin collecters. The con man convinses the mark that a low priced collection of jewlery is worth a greater amount. The coin collecter, that is clearly unexperianced at coin collecting buys the jewlery thinking its valuable when its really not."

I do not understand this paragraph? Is the coin collector buying jewlery, or coins? Why would a coin collector buy jewlery? Soapy 05:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Credit card theft by computer proxy

This section should be either rewritten or removed entirely.

I think it was written as a joke. Even if you over-looking the spelling, it is not logical. Why would someone use a credit card to buy a magazine? The author said the swindler is "long gone," indicating that he leaves. Would it not make better sense to to hold on file, while the computer is being "fixed," then taking off with the computer as well? Soapy 22:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Citation for "You can't cheat an honest man"

Terry Pratchett uses it in his book "Going Postal"... there's also a movie written by W.C. Fields, entitled "You Can't Cheat an Honest Man". Dunno how to add a citation, otherwise I would do so. --AnitraSmith 19:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Add: Confidence Trick by Police

I have tried to add, to the examples: "In California, many police departments send out computer-generated red light camera "tickets" that have not been filed with the Superior Court, thus have no legal weight and can be ignored. The intent is to bluff the registered owner into contacting a website, or writing back, and revealing the name, address and driver's license number of the person who was driving the car. The website will even let you pay the ticket via credit card. Fake ticket"

It has been removed twice, by WRS and McKay. If they, or anyone else here would like to participate in a discussion of the suitability of the entry, please join in, in the discussion section of "Phishing," under the heading "Phishing by the Police."--Einsteininmyownmind 17:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

More on Property Scams

The biggest scams I have heard of involve property and real estate and land. It would be great to highlight some of these in the article. Buying property off plan can net fraudster property developers millions of dollars in one hit without much legal recourse. New world areas seem to be ripe with these type of scams - places like Morocco, Brazil and Thailand. This is because non scamming real estate developers can make fantastic returns in these areas. I have linked in a site which warns users of the latest scams doing the rounds at *Totally Property. I look forward to proposing some more changes to this article soon.

This is interesting stuff. BUT do you not think that publicising these types of scams gives confidence tricksters ideas??? I wonder how many con men check wikipedia for a new scam?

• • There are no "new" scams, just new versions of the old ones...writing about these scams helps possible victims as well. Soapy 04:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Illegal Shielding

I see that one defensive move is to make confrontation from the mark illegal. Wiki might affect someone's decisions by elaborating their options. For example, should someone having bought a bricked TV that was stolen bother going to the authorities? Local law varies, of course. --Falos 03:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Impersonation

A major category of scam seems to be missing. I can't recall the exact details now, but I've heard of people going around impersonating government officials of one sort or another (tax agents, etc.) and selling non-existent 'licenses' or otherwise collecting fees under the guise of government authority. Wouldn't this qualify as a 'confidence trick' since they have to convince the victims that they need to pay this fee? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.31.91.61 (talk)

"Bad Literary Agent"

I'm sure this isn't a real confidence trick, just a joke from humorist John Hodgman's book "The Areas of My Expertise". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lordpook (talk • contribs) 12:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

Unfortunately, it is a real confidence trick which has been especially prevanent since the advent of the web. --Pleasantville 12:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that "bad agent" in general is a real life, widespread con, although I would probably just call it "fake agent". There are also fake agents for inventing, singing, dancing, and probably other disciplines as well. The entry doesn't cite any sources though. I was looking around for sources on this one the other day but haven't found anything good so far. I'm sure there's something out there, I just haven't found it yet. --RemoWilliams 14:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I found a couple of sources, and I'm going to generalize the issue a bit as well. I think I remember seeing Hodgeman doing that bit on the Daily Show also! Still, the scam is real. --RemoWilliams 00:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

A number of the sources on the entry for literary agent describe what are considered legitimate business practices and link to lists of agents who are considered scam agents. The general behavior of scam agents as a class does fit the definition of confodence trick.

However, providing aditional information on this topic may make some connected to the Wikimedia organization touchy, since Wikipedia is currently being sued by an agent whose practices appear to meet the generally published critera for a scam agent, namely Barbara Bauer. There was a big fuss during the deletion of her article, and the controversey subsequently figured into User:Will Beback's poorly regarded actions against Teresa Nielsen Hayden (an edior who is an expert on scam agents) and her Wikipedia entry.

So. Sourcing that bit of the article is possible, but doing so might attract people with pitchforks and touches.--Pleasantville 11:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Heh. Thanks for the heads up. So far I've found lots of sources that don't really pass my smell test as far as the literary aspect of the scam, which really should not have been so specific in the first place. I rewrote it as Talent agency scam. --RemoWilliams 13:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Grapefruit Seed Extract - is this really a confidence trick?

While the information on grapefruit seed extract might usefully form part of an article on alternative medicine, it doesn't seem to have a lot to do with confidence tricks. Would anybody miss this section if it were removed?

NegativeCharlie 10:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I would remove it. People seem to add things to this article that they consider ripoffs, but that aren't really cons at all. --Galaxiaad 10:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Well... alright. Anyways, it is still a consumer fraud and a ripoff. --Pillar Of Coolness 03:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

what!? has anyone here ever heard of "short-changing"?

the most common form (i would imagine) of confidence tricks is short-changing (a.k.a quick-changing). it seems odd that this is not mentioned here, or that it doesn't have it's own aricle entry. someone listed a very petty version of it in the listed cons, but that is nowhere sufficient. the only idea i can think of is that somebody (administrator perhaps), wouldn't allow this in the article because it would encourage people to try it, because of it's relative ease to commit. anyone? Helio462

Who pulled my entry of Rosenhan? Terabandit

• Rosenhan experiment

Do the cons listed have to be all harmful or criminal? The Rosenhan expirement was a con on psychiatrists, they were tricked into believing they were getting fake patients when they were not given any. They still found what they were looking for. Why is this not listed as a con?--Mark v1.0 17:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC) Terabandit apparently did, Terabandit what is your justification? It says external, you (wiki) wants external links?--[--Mark v1.0 02:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 02:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC) No one has replied , so I'm putting it back in with external and internal links.--Mark v1.0 19:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I strongly object and disagree with characterizing Rosenhan as a "confidence trick," rather than for what it was, a scientific experiment. By the same standard, one could characterize any double blind scientific study as a confidence trick. Isn't getting the placebo from the dentist at a medical study instead of the pain meds a confidence trick as well, by that standard?

Confidence artists don't publish their findings in scientific journals, rather they try to avoid detection.

Rosenhan did not cheat or harm anyone. In fact, in light of the findings, it would be much more fair to characterize the psychiatrists as con artists, seeing as their diagnostic abilities were scientifically shown to be so poor.

I would hope that this is not a psychiatrist, angry with Rosenhan over his findings.

Furthermore, even if consensus is against me, the writing about Rosenhan is of poor quality and needs to be redone.

--RemoWilliams 03:18, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

So you ARE defining "Confidence trick" as a bad thing. I was taking it in a positive light. I see it as a work of art , and in this case in a POSITIVE way. I don't think all cons are bad, just like the TV show dateline NBC that cons pedophiles into exposing themselves.--Mark v1.0 08:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

someone needs to write about these topics below

auction fraud , porn scams , Job scams, spyware, phony sob stories, gift card scam, re-shipping goods (bought with stolen credit cards), skimming, telemarking scam, modeling scam —The preceding unsigned comment was added by STPgroup (talk • contribs) 04:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

add http://www.lookstoogoodtobetrue.com/

• Cross-Border Fraud

   * Romance Schemes
   * Advanced Fee Scams
   * Charities Fraud
   * Debt Elimination
   * Investment Frauds
   * Job Scams
   * Nigerian "4-1-9" Scams
   * Ponzi & Pyramid Schemes

   *  Hacking
   * Identity Theft
   * Phishing/Spoofing
   * Spam
   * Spyware

Financial Fraud

   *  Terminology
   * International Auction Fraud
   * Escrow Services Scam
   *  Foreign Lottery Fraud
   * Sweepstakes/Prizes Scam

Counterfeit Payments Fraud

   *  Counterfeit Cashier's Checks
   * Counterfeit Money Orders

Pharmacy Fraud

please make sure all these are covered. thank you

Biography of Living Persons Policy

I notice that Ward Churchill is listed as a con man. While I might tend to agree, it's not my opinion that's important.

I am removing him from the list. The one cited source is from the Free Republic online, and they are explicitly a biased source (iow, probaly not "reliable," as per the Wikipedia guidelines). I quote from their home page:

"Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America."

I further note that his university has not even reached a decision as to his guilt.

I quote from Wikipedia:Reliable sources now (emphasis mine):

"Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple reliable sources, especially regarding scientific or medical topics, historical events, politically charged issues, and biographies of living people."

I'll look into the other names as well, to be certain that none are alive. Any reference to anyone alive on this page should be either removed or well-sourced. --RemoWilliams 22:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

While the column does appear on the Free Republic web site, they're just reprinting a column that appeared in the Rocky Mountain News. And it was written by law professor Paul Campos, who describes himself as "a Mexican-American Democrat". (Not exactly a member of the vast right wing conspiracy.) As for the need for multiple sources, this article also calls Churchill a "con artist": [1]Steve8675309 23:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and I would hardly call those sources "exceptional." I don't want to get into a revert war with you, so I think we'll need to ask a mediator about this one.--RemoWilliams 14:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

One column was written by a law professor from WC's university. The other was written by a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution [2]. I have trouble thinking of better sources. Can you give me an example of what you consider a "reliable source"? Steve8675309 12:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It's ridiculous to place Ward Churchill in this list. Churchill has published dozens of books on a variety of political subjects which are considered reliable reading and source material. Although common it is not required by many universities for a professor to have a PHD. If Ward had somehow falsified a PHD he might be considered a grifter. Putting Ward Churchill on this list is an obvious move in personal politics by a fringe group of editors who have little or no interest in the subject of grifting.

I agree. He is certainly not widely recognized as a grifter, and his inclusion seems to be political, probably based on the 9/11 article he wrote. Again, I note, he still has his job that he supposedly grifted. I'm removing his name again. --RemoWilliams 05:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Leave Churchill out while his case is still up in the air.Plazak 12:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Multiple news articles call WC a con man or grifter. The entry is well-sourced and it isn't 'political'. Again, one story was written by a law professor from WC's university, another by a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution [3].

WC's job is still up in the air, but not because of plagiarism accusations. The issue of him being a fake Indian is settled. Steve8675309 14:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Those aren't news articles, they're op/ed pieces, in other words, opinion. One of your sources is explicitly biased, as I pointed out before. Repeating slanderous opinion is not the same as reliable sourcing. Furthermore, even if everything you seem to believe about Churchill was true, it's a stretch to call it grifting, which is what the article is supposed to be about. So here we go again, I'm removing the reference and requesting moderation on the issue. So far, the consensus is against you.--RemoWilliams 16:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I've requested mediation on this issue (from the Cabal), and I agree to abide by the decision. Steve8675309, are you okay with that also?--RemoWilliams 16:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I just posted my case for including Churchill [4] and agree to abide by the decision. Steve8675309 21:56, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Basically, there should be at least one very, very reliable source for everyone in the list. I am removing every name that does not have a citation beside it. Please read WP:BLP.TheRingess (talk) 16:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you TheRingess, it's a very fair and well reasoned decision. Steve8675309, does this work for you? --RemoWilliams 17:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it was a mistake to delete all these of these people. Most of them have their own wikipedia pages. The multiple reliable sources required by WP:BLP are listed on those pages. For example, why remove someone like Frank Abagnale, who is extremely well-known and calls himself “one of the world's most famous confidence men” on his company’s own web page [5]? As TheRingess noted, multiple reliable sources are very important in BLPs. But in most of these cases, the required sources were only one click away. Steve8675309 02:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Ya, I'd have to agree about Frank Abagnale.--RemoWilliams 02:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Then use an inline citation to make it clear that there is a source other than Wikipedia. Please see WP:RS.TheRingess (talk) 02:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Churchill may better fit the category of Impostor. Ferdinand Waldo Demara, "The "Great Imposter" also gained employment by misrepresenting his background, but is not listed under confidence tricksters. Frank Abagnale did the same thing, but he is presumably listed in this article for forging checks, not for lying his way into various jobs. The charges of plagarism would fit better in the category of Academic scandal.Plazak 16:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality

While browsing, I came upon this section: "Religious systems & organizations - Several systems and organizations based upon belief in the supernatural are being used as vehicles for performing confidence tricks,[4] or are alleged to be confidence scams in itself, example Glam-Televangelism or Scientology." There is some sort of defamation with this, no matter how negative it may seem, this is implying a thought that should not be made. Thanks, Daily Rubbings 22:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC).

Adding a link

I work for the America's Most Wanted Safety Center, a new department of America's Most Wanted getting away from the capturing of criminals, and branching out to all aspects of safety. I feel a link to our post about protecting yourself from con artists would be appropriate and mutually beneficial, because truly, who is better known in this country for giving Americans the chance to protect themselves from criminals and fight back than America's Most Wanted? The link is http://www.amw.com/safety/?p=46 please consider it. Jrosenfe 15:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

MedCab Case

Hello, I'll be your mediator for this case. I'd prefer to keep discussion over at MedCab to avoid cluttering the talk page while we work through this issue. I'm available at any time to discuss your concerns, please see my contact page for additional ways to get a hold of me. Shell ^babelfish 20:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed Section

I removed Characteristics of Confidence tricks, because the source given requires registration, the information contained in the list was redundant, and often vague enough that it could apply to perfectly legitimate activities.--RemoWilliams 06:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The New York Times, and many media sources require registration. I can understand removing something for vagueness and all that, but removal for requiring registration is not by itself an adequite reason. --Pleasantville 11:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)