Talk:Fred Saberhagen

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Dracula Sequence:
- Dominion (1997)
- A Matter of Taste (1990)

that's not chronological - any specific reason or can that 1997 entry be moved down (or is that 1987)? (clem 19:09, 14 May 2005 (UTC))[reply]

Berserker novels history

Berserker's Star (2003) shows up as #14 & #16.

Death

If this individual is actaully dead, as an editor indicated, a reference must be found before indicating that fact in his article. Quatloo 00:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, thanks for the tip, Quatloo. What part of "as noted on the Science Fiction Writer's Association of America Web site" did you not understand? As a member of SFWA, I've seen the announcement with my own eyes. However, to satisfy officious twitdom, I will also note reference to it on Harlan Ellison's Web site, with further comments by Ellison. Scalzi

First of all, it's not noted on the front page of that website. Second, the website may not qualify as a WP:RS. Third, why was no URL provided to the announcement, if in fact any such announcement exists? For all we know it could be some message base attached to that website, which would certainly not qualify as a reliable source. Quatloo 02:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do what you want, Quatloo. Oddly enough, Saberhagen remains dead despite your refusal to allow Wikipedia to acknowledge it, and if you don't think Harlan Ellison is sufficiently reliable source in this particular case, you're a goddamned fool. Scalzi

A reliable source is required. Surely if someone as eminent as Saberhagen has died, a reliable source could be located. Ellison may be mistaken; he is not a reliable source by any definition. Quatloo 02:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, for God's sake. He was called by a personal friend of the Saberhagens with the news, a personal friend who is also well known in fannish circles. Your own apparently inability to grasp who is a reliable source in this case is no reason for Wikipedia not to carry accurate information. Scalzi

A "who" can never be a reliable source. Please read WP:RS. Quatloo 03:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Really? To quote WP:PSTS: "Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about." (Emphasis added.) --Chronodm 04:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quatloo, do you bottle your own "pointlessly officious" juice or do you have someone else bottle it for you? Harlan Ellison, aside from being one of the most notable names in history of science fiction, says that Fred Saberhagen, his personal friend, has died. He in turn has gotten this information from someone whom the Saberhagens themselves have asked to pass along the information. Just out of curiosity, from whom do you think what you would qualify as a "reliable source" will get its information? If the Wikipedia set-up doesn't recognize these sources as reliable, it's an idiotic set-up. And as I've noted before, when we discover that Saberhagen has been dead all this time, and you've been the one holding up the informaton because you can't grasp who qualifies as a reliable source, you're going to look like a fool.Scalzi

A published source, like, oh, a newspaper. Not a person, not a blog, not a message forum. I had suggested you read WP:RS, which tells you what qualifies as a reliable source in Wikipedia. Apparently you still have not. I know exactly what qualifies as a reliable source. You have demonstrated repeately that you do not. Quatloo 03:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, Quatloo, from whom do you think the published source will get its information? Possibly from the person whom the Saberhagens have entrusted to tell people about his death? Or are you somehow under the impression that information spontaneously generates out of the thin vapor? As someone who has actually worked as a journalist, and has since 1991, I can assure you that the data we put in newspapers and magazines, and in books, comes from "whos." But I think it's cute you tried to pull rank on me on this matter. However, unless you can prove you write regularly and profitably outside this little sandbox we call Wikipedia, as I can, with years of experience to tell me who is a reliable source, allow me to suggest you try not to lecture me about sourcing. You look silly doing it. Scalzi

Once it is published in a reliable source, Wikipedia can use the information. But Wikipedia cannot be the first place to publish such information. Anyway this is a moot point now that a source is available. Quatloo 03:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia wasn't the first place to publish the information; it was published online from credible sources, regardless of your (or Wikipedia's) opinion of them. Just out of curiosity, Quatloo, are you at all curious as to where Locus Magazine got its information? Or does that simply not matter to you, because Locus qualifies as a source and you don't have to think about it anymore? Honestly, this whole exercise has been completely ridiculous. Scalzi

It doesn't matter where Locus Magazine got its information. I don't care how sausage is made. But Wikipedia cannot publish information that is not already published elsewhere in a WP:RS. And yes, the issue is no longer a concern because Locus does qualify as a source. And when put information on Wikipedia you have to play by Wikipedia's rules, not by rules you invented yourself. There have been many cases of Wikipedia falsely reporting the death of individuals who remain alive -- these rules exist for a reason. And this rule we are discussing, it is the most fundamental rule of them all. Quatloo 04:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's a franky appallingly straitjacketed way to attempt to determine what is truthful and useful information. Wikipedia is flatly stupid for promulgating such an inflexible method of determining the value of information, and your "It's sourced, I don't care how" attitude makes me vomit in my mouth just a little. It suggests you don't actually care if the material is true, merely that it's sourced. As you say, these rules exist for a reason, but that reason seems to be to allow hall monitors types to have their officious fun, rather than focusing on publishing useful and credible information even if it's not from a specific and rather blithely trusted medium. If nothing else, that's not actually useful for Wikipedia. But since the information is now sourced, I guess you don't have to worry about that. Scalzi

Added reference from Locus Magazine's website. Jczorkmid 03:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. As the trade magazine of the science fiction world, it should be official enough for Wikipedia purposes. Although I will bet you large sums that Locus got its information from the same places I did. Scalzi

And yet the article remains locked. This kind of irrational rigidity is what makes me lose faith in Wikipedia as a repository of actual knowledge. Phil Urich 04:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had an admin come by to lock it to end the edit war. Sorry if that wasn't actually helpful. Lockdowns aren't permanent - at some point it'll stop being locked again. Nerwen 04:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A couple online sources:

Nerwen 03:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neither message forums nor blogs qualify as sources, and the scalzi.com blog is run by someone engaged in adding unsourced information to this article. None of those can be remotely said to qualify as a WP:RS. Quatloo 03:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The point of mentioning the Scalzi.com blog was that it verifies that "Scalzi" above actually is the author John Scalzi, and therefore isn't just some random passerby. Nerwen 04:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Another one. Front page of a well-known Sci Fi magazine:

http://www.locusmag.com/

Nerwen 03:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Protection?

Why is this article protected? What dispute is unresolved? --Chronodm 04:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The argument was over whether or not the article should note Saberhagen's death. Read above for details. Nerwen 04:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The argument was over whether his death can be noted without a reliable source. Now that there is a reliable source, the issue is moot. Quatloo 04:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reading the argument, I think you're missing a few clues about science fiction writers. Whether you intended insult or not, you were dissing people who knew Fred Saberhagen, not some random Wikipedian sicko who might think it funny to start a false story. Yes, I know it's a Wikipedia Policy. It does make sense. But in cases such as this instance, with the emotions surrounding a death of a friend, I don't think you have the necessary social skills to enforce it without provoking offence. Zhochaka 06:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No social skills would be sufficient to not provoke offense of those involved. When the reaction to policy is "I don't care", or worse yet, "I don't care and I'm not going to be bothered to even read the policy", there is little more that can be done. Quatloo 06:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since as someone else here has pointed out your own reading to the policy leaves something to be desired, I'd be careful about calling pots black, there, Quatloo. More to the point, the sources noted would definitely have been perfectly cromulent in the real world of journalism and research, and also, here in Wikipedia. As far as social skills are concerned, It'd be nice if you had them but I'm rather less concerned about them than a general competence in assessing what is a credible source of information in this context; your comment that Harlan Ellison was not a credible source in this instance, for example, indicated a significant lack of knowledge about the field, which cast doubt on your ability to credibly assess the data. Which is to say occasionally others here will know more than you. Scalzi

And as far as I can tell from the history log, the dispute was already resolved at the time the article was protected. What am I missing? --Chronodm 04:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple simultaneous things happening at once, basically. By the time I got hold of an admin to look into it, I guess someone else had found the Locus announcement, but I didn't know that at the time because I was trying to find a non-paid-subscription obituary from Albuquerque. Nerwen 05:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have unprotected the article, as the edit war regarding a reliable source for Saberhagen's death is presumably moot at this point with the confirmation by Locus. As a policy matter, though, Quatloo is quite right: no matter how well someone may have known the subject of the article, and no matter how famous Harlan Ellison is, their personal accounts of events are not sufficient for Wikipedia purposes. No one was "dissed", and no one should take offense that their personal knowledge of events is not considered a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. There are a lot of things that I know from professional contacts in law or publishing, but I wouldn't think of putting them in Wikipedia without proper attribution to a published source. That's how we do things here. --MCB 07:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, bah. The problem with the Wikipedia policy is that Harlan Ellison could have written exactly what he had written on his site, had it published on the Locus Web site, and then suddenly and magically it would be acceptable to Wikipedia. The data are the same; the author, too. The only difference is that Ellison would have to have taken the intermediary step of e-mailing the Locus Web editor. We're not talking about things we "happen to know" from other people; we're talking about a credible person credibly talking about a factual event. There's a difference between these two. Wikipedia should have the ability to utilize the latter. Scalzi

Again and again you demonstrate that you have not even read the policy you're aguing about. Yes, venue is everything. What Ellison posts in a private forum is not usable. If he writes for a qualified source, it's quite usable. Quatloo 07:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And again and again, Quatloo, you demonstrate that you are patently incapable of understanding that I am saying Wikipedia's policy is stupidly flawed, and a blind adherence to it is foolish. Which, incidentally, is different from not having read the policy, and I wish there were some way you could be made to understand the distinction. Scalzi