Talk:Jared Taylor

Comments about POV in article and debate over his views

If we label him "disgusting" some might view that as expressing a POV without providing any information. Better to describe actual things that he did or said which would allow the reader to make up their own mind about him. Be bold, find some good sources, and add to this article. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:44, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Don't you think it's a little biased to have all those references to leftist "anti-racist" sites? One ought to suffice.

The first link isn't really worth anyone's time to read. It's just trying to demonise Taylor by associating him with figures it claims are 'neo-fascist' despite the fact that they explicity say they aren't (See British National Party/Nick Griffin). This article from a "progressive" website is the very definition of bias. It's not information, it's defamation. -The boy that picked flowers and made people laugh

I just wanted to note that while I personally disagree with many of the decidedly unrealistic and silly conclusions Taylor reaches (separation of the races within America, etc.) and find him to be a tad obnoxious at times, if you read his information at no point does he advocate or argue the supremacy of whites. Taylor is very comfortable in acknowledging that Ashkenazi Jews (whom he considers white for all intents and purposes) and north Asians score higher on IQ tests than Anglo whites. Therefore, trying to claim Jared Taylor is a white supremacist is both unproductive and demonstrably untrue. Just my two cents.65.92.53.132 10:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Pepe

If pressed, Taylor might also admit that Blacks are better basketball players. But none of that rules out white supremacism, which is more concerned with who holds power. If Taylor wrote that because Jews and Asians are more intelligent they should therefore be in control, then he certainly would not be a white supremacist. -Will Beback 22:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

That is some extremely fallacious logic you are using there my friend.

"If Taylor wrote that because Jews and Asians are more intelligent they should therefore be in control, then he certainly would not be a white supremacist."

Since when is that the definition or litmus test for who is and is not a white supremacist? If you look at the etymology or construction of the phrase "white supremacist", I think that it is both rather clear (not to mention redundant) to glean that it is one who advocates the SUPREMACY of whites. While Jared Taylor certainly possesses his own biases concerning both individuals and societies (in favor of western Anglo-Caucasians and the civilizations they have created), he has NEVER asserted the supremacy of this racial/ethnic group in any of his writings, and I would ask you to provide even a single piece of evidence to back this claim.

Taylor has consistently held that blacks score lower on IQ tests for mainly genetic reasons, he has said that they are inherently more crime prone than whites ie not due to past and current racial discrimination or the legacy of past racial discrimination, that they are likely to be inherently less altruistic than whites and that they by and large are cognitively ill-equipped to handle life in a modern Western society. OK he may never have come straight out and said "blacks are inferior" but surely even the most obtuse observer would easily impute from Taylor's statements on blacks that he considers them to be inferior in most people's definition of the term.

Taylor certainly IS a white nationalist and white separatist (IMO the former possibly having some validity and the latter being a ridiculous and quixotic belief system) but there is an absolute absence of proof with regards to the "Jared Taylor as advocate of white supremacy" claim.

As an aside, you noted,

"But none of that rules out white supremacism, which is more concerned with who holds power. If Taylor wrote that because Jews and Asians are more intelligent they should therefore be in control[...]"

While "none of that" rules out white supremacism, it also in no way proves that Jared Taylor IS a white supremacist. While I will concede that absence of proof is not proof of absence, using double negative reasoning (ie: "Well prove to me that Jared Taylor ISN'T a white supremacist!") does not make for a particularly convincing argument.

Furthermore, to state that the only way that Jared Taylor can prove he is not a white supremacist is to advocate that only people of Asian and Jewish descent should maintain power is ludicrous. Doing so would be an advocation for aristocracy (ie "rule by the best) which is in direct conflict with America's democratic republic form of governance, meaning by your logic Mr. Taylor can only prove he is not a white supremacist by asserting his anti-democratic bona fides.

Also worth noting is that the census for the year 2000 states that 69% of Americans are Caucasian. Even if we were to assume that Ashkenazi Jews are counted twice as both Eastern European descended Caucasians and as Jews (as Judaism is labelled a religion and not necessarily an ethnicity or separate racial grouping), that would still leave us with a population comprised of 67% non-Jewish white citizens, 2% ethnic Jewish citizens and 4% Asian citizens. Now when you say "in control" I'm going to (while going out on a rather large limb) assume that you're speaking of representation within government. In that case, even if we were to assume that the genetically inherited cognitive abilities of both Jews and Asians would allow both groups to be over-represented in government at twice the rate of a "less able" racial group (at 4% and 8% respectively), the net composition of government in the United States would STILL be comprised of a statistical majority of white citizens.

Your reasoning as to how Jared Taylor is supposed to prove himself a non white supremacist is flawed, undemocratic and lacks basic logic (both stastically speaking and otherwise).65.92.49.185 09:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)Pepe

If you read the discussion above my message you'll see that another unregistered user, or maybe you, said that Taylor can't be a supremacist because of X, Y, Z. I was simply saying that that is not true, that X,Y, or Z do not contradict supremacism. Ultimately, it is our job, as Wikipedia editors, to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. If you search Google you will find that Taylor is frequently called a supremacist. That's why we call him one, not because he meets our own criteria. Cheers, -Will Beback 02:41, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I certainly agree that it's fine to include criticism of Jared Taylor, and if that criticism happens to take the form of his detractors labelling him a "white supremacist" then so be it. The problem in my view is that Jared Taylor's detractors are using spurious (and even non existant) logic, combined with emotional anti-racist hysterics when forming their criticisms. One can search the internet and find proponents of flat Earth theory, but that does not, in fact, make the Earth flat. Likewise, if Jared Taylor's critics choose to label him a white supremacist, while that is lovely, it would seem that their characterization is bereft of proof given that they cannot point to a single writing or statement made by Mr. Taylor advocating the supremacy of whites.

Say I were to label you a pedophile and "publish" that characterization on the internet in a manner that made it suitable as a outside source citable for Wikipedia. Despite the fact that I have no proof that you are a pedophile (and for the record, I sincerly doubt you are one) and despite the fact that I can point to no action, statement or writing on your behalf that would confirm your pedophiliac tendencies, my purely opinionative statement would be considered a valid detracting characterization of you as an individual. In my view, such an action is directly analogous to the behavior Jared Taylor's critics are engaging in.

"Well, we have no empirical evidence upon which to conclude that Jared Taylor is a white supremacist, but we think he's a tad too well-spoken, and generally a big racist meanie and I think he sounds like a white supremacist so, ergo, he is one."

You're including an opinion (devoid of any proof or citation) and doing so would seem to be inherently POV and in direct conflict with Wikipedia's policy on the issue. If you can find a characterization of Jared Taylor as a white supremacist that bases the assertion on any proof (including statements made by Mr. Taylor or writings published by Mr. Taylor) then I would certainly encourage you to keep the dissenting characterization. Otherwise, such a depiction would seem to be inherently POV and in conflict with the Wkipedia policy.

Not to mention the fact that anytime I see the SPLC used a source, it immediately sets off my bullshit detector. If you are not aware of what I am speaking of, I would refer you to the November 2000 article published in Harper's Magazine, entitled 'The Church of Morris Dees', which can be found here: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a3e5cb925c4.htm

It is not for us to evaluate the accuracy of a criticism. All we can do is failry summarize the criticism and the rebuttal, if any. I've added some more details from Potok's criticism of Taylor to answer your concern that we are repeating a claim that has no supporting evidence. -Will Beback 21:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Let's review the additional information and see if it is merely opinion or actual proof of Jared Taylor being a white supremacist, shall we? I'll dissect the points in reverse order.

1. "Potok calls The Color of Crime, "a booklet that tries to use crime statistics so as to 'prove' that blacks are far more criminally prone than whites."

The Color of Crime cites statistics provided by the US Depatment of Justice and state correctional authorities; Jared Taylor isn't simply making up his own statistics nor is he distorting the provided statistics.

For instance, current statistics show that blacks are represented are imprisioned at a rate of around 1100 per 100,000 as compared to whites at less than 200 per 100,000 (approximately 180). Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime

Also, nation-wide as of 1997, non-Hispanic whites comprised 34.8 percent of the prisoners, African-Americans 46.9 percent, Hispanics 16.0 percent, and others 2.3 percent. Given that black Americans comprise 13% of the population yet 46.9% of prison inmates (a massive over-representation), it would seem that blacks are more "prone" to commit crimes due simply to the fact that they as a group are being imprisioned at a higher rate (causation of the criminal behavior aside).

links for data:

http://www.isteve.com/Crime_Imprisonment_Rates_by_Race.htm

http://www.isteve.com/crime_imprisonment_data_by_state_by_race.htm

It would seem that Mark Potok's anger should be directed at the study of statistics and human beings ability to count what their eyes see, rather than Jared Taylor.

Now that we've established that Mr. Taylor's statistics (and the citation of said statistics) is correct, let's address the adjectives he attaches to black Americans AS A GROUP (nowhere does he label ALL black Americans or INDIVIDUAL black Americans as such). "Crime-prone," "dissipated," "pathological" and "deviant" are the adjectives used. I believe we have already established that black Americans are more "prone" (having a tendency) to commit crimes. Secondly, as for the charge that black Americans are "dissipated", Mark Potok does not clarify whether Jared Taylor means "intemperate in the pursuit of pleasure" or "wasted or squandered". If Mr. Taylor is referring to the former, I can dig up the race based statistics on drug consumption, teen pregnancy and illegitimacy (drug use and sex being two rather obvious pleasurable behaviors) if you like. If Mr. Taylor is referring to the latter, I don't really see how anyone can argue that the current rate of black incarceration is anything BUT a waste. In any event, since when are either of those comments decidedly pejorative and indicative of white supremacy? Moving right alone, let's tackle "pathological", meaning "of, relating to, or manifesting behavior that is habitual, maladaptive, and compulsive". Given that the black imprisionment statistics have either stayed static or increased over the last century, explain how that is anything other than habitual. Also, given that our society universally views criminal behavior as unacceptable and detrimental to society at large, any group that shows disproportionately high levels of criminal behavior is arguably exhibiting maladaptive tendencies in relation to the societal norms. Lastly, "deviant": given that deviant means differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society, and given that our society does not accept criminal behavior and black Americans are committing crimes at a higher rate (or deviating from the societal norm at a higher rate), I cannot see a refute to this characterizaztion.

Lastly, while it's nice that Mark Potok labels the Council of Conservative Citizens as racist, he does not provide a justification or citation for THIS characterization either. Also, one might want to question Mr. Potok as to whether or not we are now playing a game of "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon: Racism Edition", as he feels content to characterize private citizens as "white supremacists" without bothering to cite any proof and based merely upon the individual's constitutionally protected right to freedom of association.

Why not simply state, "It is the personal opinion of Mark Potok that Jared Taylor is a racist, etc." OR "Mark Potok characterizes Mr. Taylor as a "racist"; though he has as yet declined to cite as basis for this characterization". That would seem a lot simpler than adding a bunch of decidedly POV mumbo-jumbo courtesy of Mr. Potok.

It is not our job to decide if Taylor or a supremacist, a realist, a human, or anything else. All we can do is summarize sources, not judge proof. If you have some additional sources which provide a diferent viewpoint then let's summarize those too. -Will Beback 05:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Did you ask some drunked Hispanic homeless what he thinks about Taylor? And what about asking some Guatemalean cleaning woman from New York? I think you should summarize their opinions. Everybody, who thinks that Taylor is a racist, must be quoted on Wikipedia! 82.100.61.114 22:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

While you may think those are noteworthy opinions they would not meet Wikipedia's standards. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 19:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I think this ariticle would be improved by removing the last paragraph with the quotes by Mark Potok. It's enough to say that he has critics and to name those critics, but you don't need direct quotes from his critics especially with none from Taylor himself. -James S. 09:26, 09 March 2006 (PST)

We can summarize the criticism, but we should not remove it. If there is a direct quote from Taylor that you think would nehance the article then please add it. -Will Beback 23:04, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

links

Why do we have external links to ADL and SLPC. Those organizations are not an authority on determining who is who. They pursue their own political agendas and are not qualified to judge anybody. Those links must be removed.

We have links to those organizations because they have made significant comments about the subject. -Will Beback 00:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Fortunately, the Internet is a much bigger information space then Wikipedia, and by being biased against whites, the Wikipedia project is going the same way as the "Mainstream" Media - dead end.

Wikipedia is biased against racists, as well it should be. Bastie 15:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not biased against racists or Whites, and should not be. Wikipedia is meant to comprehensively report objective observations, and at best draw rational conclusions, not to condemn or promote any particular worldview. Capiche? This article is objective, comprehensive and rational on the topic, as it should be. --SohanDsouza 05:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Jared Taylor has personally told me that he is more of a paleolibertarian than anything else. Now since that is anecdotal you may not believe me. But, ee has written for the Last Ditch, which is libertarian, and wrote in praise of Democracy the God that Failed on two sites(one of which is his own) while praising the Mises Institute in the VDare column. The links are here and here http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/ http://www.amren.com/0201issue/0201issue.html#article2 and http://www.vdare.com/taylor/hoppe.htm I don't see how you can use the term white nationalist while using the term paleolibertarian considering white nationalism can be used to mean a lot of different things while paleolibertarian may mean something that is not usually nationalistic. That's why I changed his opening sentence from paleoconservative, white nationalist to paleolibertarian, racalist. Why is that wrong? I will go ahead and do it and have someone tell me why I am wrong if that comes up

If we don't have a reliable source for his political inclination we should omit it. -Will Beback · † · 22:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Considering those sources are reliable since they are all from his own mouth I believe they should not be omitted.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was if we don't have a source for his political inclinations then we shouldn't label him. None of the three sources you list include the prefix "Paleo". If we decide on our own that the views expressed in his essays are those of a paleolibertarian then that's original research, forbidden by WP:OR. At most we might say that he's expressed sympathy for paleolibertarian views. -Will Beback · † · 17:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok if that is the case, then the previous paleoconservative, white nationalist label was under that category and nobody here protested even though there was not evidence constituting for that other than his vdare articles opposed to citizenism. If someone wanted to take down the current label and put nothing in its place, then that would be fine with me. But if someone is going to put what was previous to it, then I will have to protest.

I have restored “White Nationalist” to the lead. Doing an advanced Google search of Amren brings up multiple citable sources; however, the one I choose to use gives a broader range of Taylor’s views on the subject than any specific example from Amren. Clearly the readers and writers of Amren see themselves as Paoloconservative, as per a google search, but in searching Amren I could not find anything to directly tie that label to Taylor, nor could I find anything of him or his readers embracing the label paleolibertarian. Brimba 20:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I am a reader of Amren and know other readers from amren. There are many who do not seem themselves paleoconservatives. I ran an advanced google search with paleolibertarian and found multiple citable sources. On the Amren site, there is nothing that says white nationalism. So I am taking it off

white nationalist = 355 [1]

white nationalism = 226 [2]

paleolibertarian = 2 both in reference to Lew Rockwell [3]

Brimba 01:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I never said the search under white nationalist did not have more but that still doesn't refute my point of pointing out that on the American Renaissance site it does not mention white nationalism. It mentions race and being pro-European/White.

From Wikipedia, "Nationalism is a political ideology[1] that holds that a nation is the fundamental unit for human social life, and takes precedence over any other social and political principles." Now where does Taylor say anything like this that the White race takes precedence over any social or political principle? That is what is implied by White nationalism.

This sentence in the article should be deleted:

Sentence

<< Potok quotes Taylor as writing that African Americans are "crime-prone," "dissipated," "pathological" and "deviant." >>

According to Wikipedia guidelines, "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable," but Potok provides no sources for these claims.

Assuming that I actually used these words in some discussion of blacks (this is Jared Taylor writing), it is impossible to know whether I was writing about one black, some blacks, or all blacks. The implicaiton, of course, is that I think all blacks are "pathological," "deviant," etc., which is something I have never thought, never said, and never written.

The sentence should therefore be removed permanently because it is unsourced and therefore unverifiable, and because it is a deliberate distortion of my views.

68.227.194.12 03:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)Jared Taylor68.227.194.12 03:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

It is verifiable that Potok quotes Taylor as saying those things.[4] If Taylor wants to publish as denial we can print that too. -Will Beback · † · 04:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure which terms Taylor denies using. But I see he has written,

• Blacks are the most dangerous, crime-prone group in America ...[5]

So there's some verifiability of the original quotations, not that we need it. -Will Beback · † · 04:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

To Will Beback on Mark Potok quote.

I am certainly not denying that Mark Potok has written the sentence included in this article. I think it is a silly distortion of my writing, but if it is to remain in the article, I would appreciate it if the following reply from me could be included:

<< Mr. Potok bases his criticsm on the following paragraph:

"If blacks, for example, are equal to whites in every way, what accounts for their poverty, criminality, and dissipation? Since any theory of racial differences has been outlawed, the only possible explanation for black failure is white racism. And since blacks are markedly poor, crime-prone, and dissipated, America must be racked with a pervasive and horrible racism. Nothing else could be keeping them—-the undisputed equals of whites—-in such an abject state."

I challenge Mr. Potok to find any passage from my writing that describes blacks as a group as "pathological" or "deviant." >> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.227.194.12 (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Request for my reply to be added to the main article.

I have noted above that I think a qotation from Mark Potok is an unfair distortion. In this connection, Mr. Beback wrote:

<< It is verifiable that Potok quotes Taylor as saying those things.[4] If Taylor wants to publish as denial we can print that too. -Will Beback · † · 04:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)>>

Therefore I would be grateful if my reply to Mr. Potok, indicated above and repeated below, could be added to the article:

<< Mr. Potok bases his criticsm on the following paragraph:

"If blacks, for example, are equal to whites in every way, what accounts for their poverty, criminality, and dissipation? Since any theory of racial differences has been outlawed, the only possible explanation for black failure is white racism. And since blacks are markedly poor, crime-prone, and dissipated, America must be racked with a pervasive and horrible racism. Nothing else could be keeping them—-the undisputed equals of whites—-in such an abject state."

I challenge Mr. Potok to find any passage from my writing that describes blacks as a group as "pathological" or "deviant." >>

Jared Taylor

No response from Wikipedia to Jared Taylor

On May 16, 2007, I sent the following message to Wikipedia staff, which remained unaswered two weeks later:

Dear Sir or Madam:

I am the subject of the following article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Taylor and would like to request several corrections and clarifications.

(1) The following sentence is incorrect:

<< Taylor also sits on the advisory board of The Occidental Quarterly and is a director of the National Policy Institute, a Washington-based think tank. >>

At one time it was accurate, but I am no longer on the advisory board of The Occidental Quarterly nor am I any longer a director of the National Policy Institute.

(2) The following sentence is also incorrect:

<< New Century Foundation published the report contributed to by Taylor The Color of Crime: Race, Crime and Violence in America (1998, 2005) which singles out African Americans and Hispanics as the chief cause of crime in America. >>

Blacks and Hispanics commit violent crimes at considerably higher rates than whites or Asians, but they are *not* the chief cause(s) of crime, because they are minorities of 12 percent and 13 percent respectively. Because whites are still a majority of the American population, they account for a considerable amount of crime even though they commit crime at lower rates than blacks or Hispanics. The following sentence would be accurate:

“New Century Foundation published the report contributed to by Taylor The Color of Crime: Race, Crime and Violence in America (1998, 2005) which uses government crime statistics to show that blacks and Hispanics commit violent crimes at considerably higher rates than whites or Asians.”

(3) The following sentence is a silly distortion of my views:

<< Potok quotes Taylor as writing that African Americans are "crime-prone," "dissipated," "pathological" and "deviant." >>

This string of out-of-context adjectives is not serious or legitimate criticism. Mr. Potok presumably bases part of his criticism on the following paragraph of which I am the author:

"If blacks, for example, are equal to whites in every way, what accounts for their poverty, criminality, and dissipation? Since any theory of racial differences has been outlawed, the only possible explanation for black failure is white racism. And since blacks are markedly poor, crime-prone, and dissipated, America must be racked with a pervasive and horrible racism. Nothing else could be keeping them—the undisputed equals of whites—in such an abject state."

I think it is important for readers to know in what context I used the words “crime-prone” and “dissipated.” As for “pathological” and “deviant,” I can find no instance in my own work of having described blacks – either individually or as a group – as “pathological” or “deviant.” Perhaps Mr. Potok made this up, in which case the “quotation” is, in part, false.

I would suggest that Mr. Potok’s sentence of criticism of removed. Mr. Potok can express his opinions about me all he wants, but it is not fair to pass off his spurious and out-of-context “quotations” from my own work as a legitimate representation of what I think.

(4) The following sentence and paragraph are extremely misleading:

<< Right-wing Jewish critics have described elliptical statements by Taylor concerning the Holocaust as indicating a latent anti-Semitism. >>

There is no sense in which I am “latently anti-Semitic” or a Holocaust denier. I have had Jewish collaborators in every aspect of my political work. The charge of Holocaust denial is easily shown to be false. In response to a question as to whether the Nazi genocide resulted on the death of six million Jews, I replied, simply, that I had not looked into it. I meant, of course, the figure of six million, which is the only aspect of that question about which I would expect there to be debate.

I understand that estimates of the death toll range from four to six million. I have nothing approaching the historical expertise to determine which estimates are the most accurate. To interpret my reply of “not having looked into it” to mean that I somehow doubted the Holocaust itself, is not only absurd but malicious.

I strongly urge that this entire section be taken out.

I realize you have a lot of work to do, but inaccuracies, distortions, and malicious charges are hurtful. I would appreciate your making these corrections at your earliest convenience.

Sincerely yours, Jared Taylor

Thanks for your note. I hadn't seen your last one. I've addressed each of your issues.

1) changed your former posts to the past tense.

2) "New Century Foundation published the report contributed to by Taylor The Color of Crime: Race, Crime and Violence in America (1998, 2005) which calls African Americans "the most dangerous, crime-prone group in America" and asserts that blacks and Hispanics commit violent crimes at considerably higher rates than whites or Asians."

3) "Potok criticizes Taylor for his comments about African Americans."

4) "Critics of Taylor have described him as a racist and an advocate of white supremacy, and he has been accused of sympathy to Holocaust denial."

When these criticisms exist we should report them, but we have latititude over how we do so. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 09:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Does the National Policy Institute know that Taylor is no longer a director? He's still listed on their website homepage, which apparently has been updated recently. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 07:53, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Labelling as Racist

I would strongly suggest that Mr. Taylor - who is clearly not a gentleman - be introduced to our worthy readers immediately - that is, in the opening sentence - as a racist (or racialist if you will - I find the distinction between the two specious and tiresome...) because it is chiefly for that aspect of his personality that his work has received the morsel of attention that allows him to be regarded as a public figure. Obnoxious and woefully misguided as he appears to be, Mr. Taylor seems to make an effort to think clearly at most times and as far as I am aware does not contend with the application of the label 'racist' to his person. In addition to all that has been said about leftist biases against Mr. Taylor: The man is not exactly a proponent of peace and harmony in the world. His paradigm sets out to promote strife and discord among the peoples of this tiny planet and as such is less than conducive to the progress of mankind into an ethically sound state of coexistence. The man must be characterised as what he is: a marplot, a vicious attacker of the peace and an intellectual arsonist. There is no doubt that Jared Taylor is a potentially very dangerous man. Somebody whose sole public existence is based on polarisation and wilful characterisation of others can only be characterised himself by means of polarisation.

Sincerely, Ignacio Bibcraft 10:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Please read our policy on biography, WP:BLP. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 19:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing me to the policy page above. I understand your concerns. I still think, however, that the term 'racist' (or' racialist') as denoting someone whose persona is overwhelmingly characterised by a mindset that categorises people according to their ethnic background is not necessarily slanderous. I understand its problematic nature, however, and concede that it should, for that reason, be avoided as a label. I would, lastly, be interested to know if Mr. Taylor himself would object to being labelled a racist/racialist.

Sincerely, Ignacio Bibcraft 00:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

"Racialist" would be another matter. He's apparently used that term to describe himself in the past, [6][7][8] and hosts articles which describe him that way.[9] ·:·Will Beback ·:· 02:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Taylor is a bad, bad racist, because he doesn't want 100 million Mexican Ignacios in the United States! 82.100.61.114 22:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Taylor is a racist on the basis of the definition of racism. His ideas on immigration are not part of the equation. Disregarding the troll, however, Mr. Beback: thank you for clarifying. 'Racialist' would be the safe and encyclopedic option. I have decided to leave the matter of changing the beginning of the article to somebody more experienced than myself. Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Ignacio Bibcraft 10:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

You should also leave commenting this article to someone more experienced and brainy than you. As far as I know, race riots in USA, Great Britain, France, Australia and Spain occur without Taylor's assistance. 82.100.61.114 23:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I could at this point, dear 82.100.61.114, enter into a worthwhile discussion with you about structural violence. But alas, your primary objective seems to be the engagement in a subform of conventional heckling. And as you seem woefully reluctant to endow yourself with a name I find myself entirely unable to react to any of your statements forthwith. Oh, and as for what you would doubtless refer to as 'braininess', I believe the correct phrase in English would have been: "You should also leave commenting 'ON' this article to someone...". Forgive me if this is an unjust correction considering your own background, but here in England that is how we would put it. Good Bye for good and sincerely, Ignacio Bibcraft 12:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you for a lesson in the Neomarxist newspeak. Since now, I know that every murder is a structural murder, every rape is a structural rape, and every robbery is a structural robbery. We live in a structural world, after all. 82.100.61.114 13:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to Will Beback, and what to call Jared Taylor

Many thanks to Will Beback for the changes he made. I would add that the National Policy Institute web page no longer lists me as a director, so the article's reference to that position should be in the past tense.

I note that in a comment dated June 7, someone calling himself Ignacio Bibcraft urged Wikipedia to refer to me as a "racist," and I appreciate Mr. Beback's resistance to doing so. Mr. Beback expressed some curiosity as to how I might refer to myself.

First, I have always rejected the term "racist." Whatever the word means -- and definitions are so many and fluid I'm not sure anyone knows -- it implies some kind of moral inferiority. This I completely deny. My views on race are the result of many years of reflection and study. I consider them not only healthy and moral, but entirely in accord with what we know of history and human nature.

So what do I call myself?

The article says I have called myself a "racialist" and a "white separatist," but only the former is true. I have used the term "racialist" but do not recall ever calling myself a "white separatist." One would search the pages of my publication, American Renaissance, in vain for any such self-description. It is a mistake (or at the very least long out of date) and should be removed from the article.

Although I have used the term "racialist," I am not satisfied with it, partly because I agree with Mr. Bibcraft: the distinction between "racist" and "racialist" is not clear. Neither word has a useful definition. I have therefore not called myself a "racialist" for many years.

For some time, I have instead described myself as a race realist. A Google search of "Jared Taylor" and "race realist" will result in many pages of hits. This term is admittedly unfamiliar to most people, so what does it mean? Put concisely, it means recognizing at least the following: (1) That race is an important aspect of individual and group identity. (2) That although essentially all ranges of abilities are found in people of different races, there are important traits -- intelligence is the best studied -- in which there are racial differences in average ability. The evidence is overwhelming that these differences are at least partly genetic in origin.

I would add that my basic thinking about race has not changed a great deal since 1990, when I first began publishing American Renaissance. I might have forestalled confusion if I had hit upon the term "race realist" from the outset. In any case, it is the most accurate term with which to describe both me and my work.

Jared Taylor219.127.127.156 07:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for taking part in this discussion, Mr. Taylor. I greatly appreciate your clarification on what one should call you. Sincerely, Ignacio Bibcraft 12:21, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• I didn't read the essay by Taylor above, but Wikipedia is not in the business of describing people as they wish to be described. Wikipedia is about providing information backed up by reliable (preferably neutral) sources. Spylab 16:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

We should not simply describe living people with pejorative terms like "racist", particularly if the subject disagrees with the characterization. However we can say that he has been called a "racist", so long as we attribute that description to the writer. By comparison, "Senator Robert Byrd is a Democrat, but he's been called a "racist" by X, Y, Z". On the other end of the spoectrum, Bill White (neo-Nazi) does not particularly disagree with that characterization, and it's as good as any for what is a common name. His domain names include "Nazi.org", so the usage is legitimate. .

So, in the context of writing an encyclopedia biography, I think we're right to say that the subject is a racialist, or concerned with racial topics, and then later that he has been called a "racist", along with other notable criticisms. A good pratice is to introduce the subject in terms they might euse for themselves, then follow that by terms in opposition. In a reverse Godwin, let me mention the well-crafted intro to "Adolf Hitler", which I think is very neutral. Let's do as well here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that 'racist' is not really a pejorative term. Of course most of us would hate to be called racists because it implies a deeply offensive ideology. Proponents of this ideology, however, generally seem to be okay with it. Mr. Taylor, it appears, is unhappy with both 'racist' and 'racialist' and suggests that 'race realist' would be the term to apply. (And yes, of course Wikipedia is not in the business of describing people as they wish to be described, but then, after all, that's how this whole discussion started. I was asked to read the article on biographies of living persons and refrain from calling Taylor a racist. Now Taylor, our living person, has added his two cents to this discussion, which appears to be exactly the point of this whole 'living persons' - thing, and whatever we think of him, his involvement in this discussion is commendable.) The term 'race-realist', however, is highly problematic in two respects. Firstly, it is little known and does not appear to be 'legal tender' in most academic circles. Secondly and most importantly, however, the term 'race realist' is subjective and aggrandising in its suggestion that to agree with an ideology such as the one propagated by Mr. Taylor is to be 'realistic' while taking the opposite view would most likely be 'unrealistic' or perhaps romantic. This taken into consideration I agree with Mr. Beback. Describe as racialist and follow up with him having been called racist. My reservations, however, remain. I think the difference between racist and racialist is murky at best, and neither is, coolheadedly, to be understood as being pejorative. Sincerely, Ignacio Bibcraft 10:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

More False Charges Against Jared Taylor

Someone now claims I have had “dalliances with Japanese women” and that “evidence” has “surfaced” that I have a girlfriend named Yumi Akisada. I have never had a “dalliance with a Japanese woman,” and have never heard of Yumi Akisada. If such a person exists, I’m sure she will be astonished to read this nonsense.

I would have thought my sex life was of no interest to anyone, and replied in that vein when asked about it by a Canadian television reporter. I see, however, that people are prepared to believe all kinds of unsubstantiated rubbish. To anyone who claims I have had sexual relations with non-whites: Produce the evidence.

These charges are false and should be removed.

In fact there is incontrovertible evidence supporting the allegations of a relationship involving Mr Taylor and Yumi Akisada. Details will be available within two to three weeks (by mid July 07).

I understand that estimates of the death toll range from four to six million. I have nothing approaching the historical expertise to determine which estimates are the most accurate. To interpret my reply of “not having looked into it” to mean that I somehow doubted the Holocaust itself, is not only absurd but malicious.

False charges that can be clearly demonstrated as such have no place in a Wikipedia biography.

Jared Taylor 68.227.194.12 09:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Footnote number 11, used as a source on this suggestion that Mr. Taylor has been involved with a relationship with a Japanese, does not work. I would be in favour of removing the paragraph about this, since there does not seem to be any reliable evidence to support the assertions it contains. Eeaee 10:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes... Sensational and exciting as it may be to attribute 'interracial relations' to Mr. Taylor - the claim does seem unsubstantiated. Footnote 11 links to a page that currently contains no information about Taylor whatsoever. I'm going to look into the Herald and rectify the link if possible. Otherwise I will delete it altogether. In any case, the wording of the associated section would have to be modified. It is highly detrimental to Wikipedia's standards to include unsubstantiated claims and back them up with a single dead link. I would implore all of us to put the work in and search for reliable sources for these allegations in order to modify the article accordingly. Until then I suggest we remove the section altogether. It really doesn't help.

Sincerely, Bibcraft 12:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Now that others have recognized that these charges are false, please mitigate the damages by removing this section promptly.

Also, if the false charges of Holocaust denial are not removed, at the very least please insert my refutation.

Thank you.

Jared Taylor 68.227.194.12 22:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect to Mr. Taylor: the above statements do not mean exactly that we recognise the false nature of the allegations, but simply that we cannot produce the evidence. Sincerely, Bibcraft 12:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The dispute about Mr. Taylor's views on the Holocaust was (I believe) conducted here:

http://inverted-world.com/index.php/news/news/another_eagle_eyed_white_nationalist_finds_me_out/

Mr. Taylor seems to make it quite clear that the Holocaust did take place, by writing:

"The Nazis clearly killed a great many Jews during the Second World War because they were Jews."

clearly indicating the ethnic/religious persecution that the Jews suffered, as well as the massive nature of this persecution. It is misleading thus to say in the article that "he [Mr. Taylor] did not have an opinion on the six million figure" without referring to the rest of Mr. Taylors comments.

The article has not charged Mr Taylor with Holocaust denial. It simply states that some Jewish Palaeoconservatives have argued that Mr Taylor's vague statements on subject, could imply a sympathy towards the views of those such as Mark Weber, an avowed antisemite and an unregenerate Holocaust denier. So it is reasonable to leave this paragraph in unchanged.

As for the issue of the supposed relationship with a Japanese, I cannot find any other document referring to this apart from the wikipedia page. As well as being pretty puerile for an encyclopedia article, if it remains unverified, it should be removed. At the moment there is nothing to suggest it is anything more than fiction written directly into Wikipedia. Eeaee 10:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

And as such I have removed said section entirely. Whoever fancies doing so may revert it once the supporting evidence has been produced along with a host of reliable, live links. Bibcraft 11:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Mr. Bibcraft. Jared Taylor 68.227.194.12 21:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

There are several important points here. Some go far beyond this little biography, and we don't need to resolve them here. Suffice it to say that definitions of "Holocaust denial: vary. All we need to do here is verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. We should try to present the major viewpoints. A standard format is something like: first describe the subject as he might decribe himself, then report 3rd party assessments, pro and con, along with a rebuttal if necessary. If we're giving opinions we may want to attribute them. Let's certainly be sure that all assertions are properly sourced and neutrally-presented, per WP:BLP. But let's not just delete sourced material wholesale. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The Chronicle Herald only has a 7-day archive online. We need new references for a couples of sections, or remove that info. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Sorry... Bibcraft 11:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Someone has now removed the Chronicle Herald material, which is probably for the best. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

This is Approaching Vandalism.

Mr. Bibcraft has noted that the allegations about my inter-racial amours are utterly unsourced and should not appear in the article. He has also acknowledged that I have written: "The Nazis clearly killed a great many Jews during the Second World War because they were Jews." He therefore appears to agree that accusations of Holocaust denial are unfounded. (I have also stated that my only doubt about the figure of six million victims is that I have nothing like the historical expertise to judge which of the generally accepted estimates – four to six million – are the most accurate.)

Charges of interracial sex and Holocaust denial nevertheless keep appearing, in what is beginning to approach the level of vandalism. I understand Wikipedia can suspend the access privileges of vandals, and I request that this be done.

    Jared Taylor  68.227.194.12 21:52, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Due to the Herald Chronicle articles being offline, I think we need to keep out controversial edits based on that source. I've restored the material that has better sources. Everyone needs to recall that WP:BLP applies here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The "better sourced" material links to an article in the American Renaissance news archive. A journalist tells me he thought I was "rattled" when asked about interracial relations. He adds, accurately, that I corrected him, saying I was "annoyed" (that professional journalists would sink so low as to ask about my sex life.) That is as far as the story goes. There is nothing in it to suggest "loss of composure," or an "angry response." Again, this kind of irresponsible "editing" amounts to vandalism.

Jared Taylor 68.227.194.12 04:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I kept that article in part because it is hosted on AmRen. The journalist says "rattled" so it's appropriate to quote that line. I've editred the material to make it better match the source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason to label Jared Taylor's position on interracial relationships "hypocrisy" unless the editors can find some material proving so. With that being the case, charges of "hypocrisy" should be removed. Paleoconservativeone 03:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The American Renaissance link carrying Jared Taylor's own official statement regarding the Holocaust, and about his email exchange in the matter made public, seems entirely relevant to this discussion. It's removal is not warranted. Paleoconservativeone 04:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Paleoconservative. Jared Taylor 68.227.194.12 04:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

While we should reference the statemnt, there's no need to carry it verbatim. We can summarize it in a line or two, and provide a link to the full statement. ·:· Will Beback ·:·

This is now clearly vandalism

This vandalism is becoming extremely tiresome. There is once again an allegation about my “intimate relationship” with someone I have never heard of. What is the source cited? This discussion page! Whoever is making these unfounded allegations should be denied access to Wikipedia.

There is considerably more of this article that is factually wrong, but the vandals appear determined to keep it that way. I note especially that someone keeps arguing that I “question the extent of the Holocaust.” I have said only that I do not have the specialized historical knowledge to judge which of several estimates of the death toll is most accurate. My own explanation has been repeatedly removed from this article. This is yet more vandalism, and I would like to know what the people who run Wikipedia plan to do about it.

Jared Taylor68.227.194.12 20:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Jared; allegations were in fact made, and the article now states that these allegation were largely groundless. However the fact remains that allegations were made and these allegations were denied by you. Having this in Wikipedia is entirely appropriate.

Please see and read Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons before re-adding this material. WP:BLP is official policy. Brimba 15:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that these charges should be part of the article. It is true that allegations have been made, but with no basis or corroboration. Someone promised "incontrovertible evidence," which has, of course, not been produced. If someone accuses me -- without any evidence -- of wife-beating or child molestation or racketeering, are these charges to become legitimate parts of this article as well?

Wikipedia's credibility is not served by repeating charges for which there is not a shred of evidence.

Jared Taylor 68.227.194.12 16:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Alabamawhiteman to Mr Taylor: firstly I have not touched the section about the Halifax incident. The allegation of "repeated harassment" is definitely not of my doing. About Holocaust 'denial' it is obvious, to anyone who has read the original debate on "inverted world", that you doubt the official version of the 'Holocaust' story - justifiably so in my opinion. Come on Mr Taylor - be honest. About Ms Akisada - I know, many others know and most of all you yourself know that the allegations made are one hundred percent true. The healthiest option for both yourself and more importantly our movement, would be to come clean on this aspect of your life and forswear forever more what were justifiably called non-white 'dalliances.'

To Alabamawhiteman: Is there any evidence to suggest Mr. Taylor has had a relationship with Ms. Akisada, or even that Ms. Akisada actually exists? If there is not, it should not be in Wikipedia. Read WP:VERIFY and reconsider whether this allegation should remain in this article. Eeaee 16:08, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is the lady's email: yumi.akisada@gmail.com As a white man and a white nationalist, I am angered by the appalling way Jared has treated this woman. He is a spineless creep who has dishonored his wife, family and race.

Look, "Alabamawhiteman," you have not produced a shred of evidence that this women even exists, much less that I have ever met her. Not a shred. Did you invent this nonsense yourself, or did you hear it from someone else? If the latter, from whom did you hear it, and what was the aleged evidence? You should be ashamed of yourself for circulating this utterly groundless charge. Jared Taylor 68.227.194.12 16:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)