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Climate change denial

Climate change denial (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Hopelessly POV fork of global warming controversy, poorly referenced and relying entirely on "big oil" conspiracy theory Iceage77 07:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This alleged connection is not made in the article. "Denial" is part of standard English vocabulary. No comment (so far) on the other point. --Stephan Schulz 09:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Stephan, you know full well that is not true. The scientific debate is ongoing as the Scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming and Global warming controversy pages show. Some of the best climate scientists are skeptics who have never taken money from big oil.RonCram 15:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's clearly the inference. It's presupposing that there is no debate about this subject and that anyone who doesn't buy into the whole man made global warming idea is insane or of an extreme political viewpoint. Nick mallory 09:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
About the only one who has made that inference is Tim PattersonTimothy Ball. And indeed, there is no serious debate about the core issue anywhere but in US politics. --Stephan Schulz 10:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Although his vote was for Delete, Nick mallory has made an excellent argument for Keep, IMO. This is an excellent chance to document those places where those who "pretend that skepticism about man made global warming is similar to denying the existence of the Nazi holocaust", as I am not aware of any such places, but have heard many times of them (from those who object to the use of the word "denial"). Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 13:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This article--of which I am the primary author--documents an organized effort to promote controversy over climate change. The bulk of citations come from major periodicals The Guardian, New York Times, Washington Post, Vanity Fair, and Mother Jones. These sources chiefly refer to their subject as "denial." If these periodicals' allegations of funding a denial effort are false or otherwise contestable, I think it would be preferable for both sides of the present debate to answer them within the framework of the article. If the allegations are totally baseless, then of course the article should be deleted. If the allegations are defensible, then I think the article should stand. I don't think it would be right to delete the article on the basis of the above "conspiracy" accusations or the below "propaganda" accusations until the accusing parties have successfully argued that the article is not factual, verifiable, or encyclopedic. I am mystified by what seems to be general and tacit agreement that the central claims of the article are valid. If, for example, last year the Royal Society did send ExxonMobil the letter described in "Royal Society tells Exxon: stop funding climate change denial", then why shouldn't Wikipedia have an article about the "climate change denial" Britain's "premier science academy" has accused ExxonMobil of funding? Cyrusc 19:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: So Wikipedia is supposed to have an article on every political accusation that is made? I don't think so. Besides the issue is outdated. Big oil is not funding climate research anymore because no climate scientist will take their money anymore. Reputations have been ruined just over the accusation they were biased. The leading climate skeptics now have never taken money from "big oil."RonCram 15:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It should go without saying that nowhere does the article mention or impute such a connection. Allow me to suggest that the strong emotional reaction against "denial" terminology has more to do with the shame and dishonesty of what "denial" describes than with the hypothetical motives of people who say "denial." Cyrusc 19:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - article needs to be brought up to date, maybe a split for 'critisism of climate change denial', as has been done with holocaust denial and critisism of holocaust denial.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by SemperFideliS81 (talk • contribs).
  • Simple propoganda, should be deleted.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.40.153.239 (talk)
  • Merge with global warming controversy.Keep -- I understand the distinction from the controversy article better now. RandomCritic 13:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - article is new and could use some work in both alleviating POV concerns and in fleshing out references, but it is a valuable contribution. Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 13:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep seems a valid topic per the abundant refs. Will likely be contentious as the deniers will deny it :-) Vsmith 14:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - This article is clearly not a POV fork of the global warming controversy page. In that article the focus is on the arguments put forward by the skeptics (and the rebuttals). In this article the focus is on the "denial industry". We cannot just dump in this article what would be POV in the other article. Of course there may be POV problems with this article, but then POV disputes are not a valid argument for deletion.

    I can understand very well why the skeptical editors don't like this article. It will mention (well sourced) things that cannot be mentioned in great detail on the other pages. But then these things do exist in the real world and are notable, and can therefore be incuded in wikipedia. Questioning the motives of creating this article is not a valid argument for deletion.

    Similarly, some of the editors who voted (or will vote) for deletion of this article created the article on the Climate of Fear and The Great Global Warming Swindle documentaries may have had POV motives when they did so. However, no one put those articles on AFD because of those suspicions. Anyone can edit these articles, so the POV problems, if any, can be dealt with by editing these articles. Count Iblis 14:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Well supported article on a well-known topic. Raul654 14:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral for now, but leaning toward Keep. The term is in common use, including the mainstream press.[1][2]. In the U.S., the closely-related term "global warming denial" is used.[3][4] (For some reason the term "global warming" tends to be prevalent in the U.S. while "climate change" has the same meaning in other English-speaking countries.) The concept thus is notable and is not a neologism; my concern is that the relevant information may be getting fragmented across too many articles. Raymond Arritt 15:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I share your concern, but I think there's a trade-off between keeping information together and having an unwieldy article size. Also, there appears to be enough common editors (on all "sides" of the issue) in the various pages to help keep the fragmentation to a minimum. Unfortunately, some repetition will always be required where multiple articles have commonalities. Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 15:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The articles Denialism and Global warming controversy cover the topic in an encyclopedic fashion (note that the former references Global warming controversy under the text "global warming denial"). This article is little more than a litany of 'offenses' by one industry regarding one topic. There are countless businesses that have created or supported advocacy for their particular industry. This is not notable in a one-off fashion. Better might be an article that generally describe the 'denial industry'. Anastrophe 16:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and per Anastrophe. Article also attempts at Wikipedia's reputation by insinuating that climate change is an absolute certainty which ought not be denied and especially by subtly linking those denying climate change with those denying the Holocaust. This article is an endorsement of all the worst witch hunts in history and should be condemned. --Childhood's End 18:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
NB I am primary author of this article. Cyrusc 18:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep A well-referenced and informative article. Dealing with controversial material is never an appropriate reason to delete an article, or even nominate it for deletion. Envirocorrector 20:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The article is completely encyclopedic--not a single source has been challenged by those who advocate deletion, and the subject deserves elaboration in a separate article, not only because of its importance, but also in order to keep the other entries of a manageable length.Benzocane 21:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Benzocane's argument above is as i see it extremely valid. The Talk page is full of people trying to dispute the article based upon WP:POINT. I personally think that there is a bit too much finger-pointing in it currently (ie. Exxon) - but i'm certain that the widely varied opinions of the editors, and the people voting here, will ensure a thoroughly neutral article on the subject. --Kim D. Petersen 21:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete A POV mess that doesn't belong on wikipedia--Southern Texas 21:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The topic is notable and the article is reasonably well sourced. It also is distinct from global warming controversy, which describes the political and public debate about global warming, while this is a meta-discussion about one of the sides in that debate. The original version made me somewhat uneasy because it was not quite NPOV, but this calls for a better article, not for deleting it. And it has already improved quite a lot.--Stephan Schulz 22:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This has nothing to do with Holocaust Denial, simply shares a term. The article discusses a separate claim, complete denial of any climate change influenced by the industry, and specifically nonscientific denial, differing in this from internal scientific controversy. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 22:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This article records the facts. That some editors don't like those facts doesn't make it POV. What's POV is the effort to delete an article of a high quality because you find it unsettling. This article never should have come up for possible deletion in the first place. Who challenges its sources? Varlet8 23:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, with a hopelessly POV title for the article there is no chance there can be a NPOV article written. This subject is already covered elsewhere in a more NPOV manner. Mathmo Talk 00:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Many of the delete votes are predicated on the supposed POV nature of the article's title and I'd like to respond to that assertion. The term "denial" comes directly from mainstream international media sources, not original research, and none of those sources have been challenged. Denial would only be POV if it were an inaccurate term, just as nobody challenges scandal in Watergate Scandal because nobody contests the accuracy of the noun. So prior to the POV question is the question of the term's accuracy. And no editor has challenged the sources listed in the entry to my knowledge. Benzocane 01:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "Denial would only be POV if it were an inaccurate term[...]". Demonstrably false. i've never heard such a claim that Point-of-view only applies to inaccurate terms. can you provide a citation for such a remarkable claim?? Anastrophe 01:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try another example, as Watergate didn't work. Describing, say, good police work as "police abuse" is POV if it's inaccurate, whereas calling documented police abuse by that phrase is NPOV if the evidence proves abuse did in fact take place. If all terms with positive or negative connotations were banned from the encyclopedia on POV grounds independent of their accuracy, we'd have to delete a million sound entries. So the question is: is denial an accurate term for the phenomenon covered by the article. It is according to NYTimes, The Guardian, etc.--the only POV issue would be trying to ban that information from the encyclopedia.Benzocane 02:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: well, it was accurately documented, sourced, and cited in the article that a very widely published columnist compared global warming denial to holocaust denial, but that's been striken from the article as being given 'undue weight' and not NPOV, yet it falls well within the outline you've just provided as justification for inclusion in the article. it seems what's sauce for the goose is not, in this instance, sauce for the gander.Anastrophe 02:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My argument was explaining why accuracy has to precede a POV evaluation of a term; that has nothing to do with the relevance of information to the article. I don't dispute the accuracy of the phrase "holocaust denial"; I dispute the notability of the analogy between that denial and a corporate misinformation campaign.Benzocane 23:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
and as i have pointed out numerous times: you insist that the article is about a corporate misinformation campaign; 'the denial industry'. which further goes to the argument that the article is misleadingly entitled; 'global warming denial'/'climate change denial' is used, pejoratively, routinely in discourse (just see the talk page for the article), and has been used in widely published articles by proponents of AGW; yet the article does not note that in any manner. when challenged because it does not note that, we're told the article is about a corporate misinformation campaign. then why is the article entitled "climate change denial" rather than the more accurate "the denial industry" or some such - which would more honestly and accurately describe what constitutes about 90% of the content of the article? Anastrophe 00:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The title of the article comes directly from the citations. "Climate change denial" is the phrase used in the international media to describe the misinformation campaigns. "Industry" in the title of the article would fail to include the public sector denial that forms an important part of the entry, sources that, despite all of this back and forth, have not been challenged or improved upon.Benzocane 03:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
patently false. the sources have been challenged indirectly, by attempting to include actual usage of the term by AGW proponents to describe individuals who don't agree with AGW. this has been repeatedly rejected, with the claim that it is "POV" to include them, which is an abuse of the spirit of NPOV. the article is written explicitly from the POV that 'climate change denial' is an uncontroversial term applied only to the 'misinformation campaigns', which is - demonstrably and in practice - false, as again proven by the monbiot and goodman published articles. this refusal to admit examples of usage from reliable sources, properly cited, is dissembling. you've created a self-sealing argument for the explicit POV of the article. Anastrophe 04:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Of course you can be in denial. If you don't believe that something exists, then you are in denial of the existence of that thing. That is true whether or not that thing actually exists or not. Arguing that there exists no such thing as climate change denial amounts to "climate change denial denial"  :) Count Iblis 02:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: you are misconstruing the term "in denial". "in denial" is not the same as "to deny". I don't believe I can flap my arms and fly. I'm not "in denial" about my ability to fly.Anastrophe 02:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a native speaker, but for me "climate change denial" refers to the act of denying (usually implicitly anthropogenic) climate change, not to the state of being in denial about climate change. --Stephan Schulz 08:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion of this title is absurd. Merriam webster online defines "deny" as "1)to declare untrue; 2) to refuse to admit or acknowledge : DISAVOW; 3) to give a negative answer to, to refuse to grant, to restrain (oneself) from gratification of desires; 4) archaic : DECLINE; 5) to refuse to accept the existence, truth, or validity of" Note particularly that uses 1,2 and 5 make it abundantly clear that this verb is a perfect description of the phenomenon described by the article, in addition to being the most commonly used phrase by mainstream press (please don't "deny" that the New York Times is mainstream). The point is, this is the most appropriate title for the article, and quibling with it wouldn't be grounds for deletion anyway. Envirocorrector 10:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: It's interesting how a number of people say, in essence: "But I want to deny this! You can't call it denial!". And in this light, it's a good thing that this does not constitute a valid reason for deletion under Wikipedia policy. Digwuren 03:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and see also WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Raymond Arritt 03:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as per arguments by Raul654 and Cyrusc Ben Hocking Vsmith Count Iblis Envirocorrector crandles 10:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Article gives convincing argument that denial differs from mere skeptisicism (i.e. global warming controversy). Number 57 11:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy delete. The article is out of date in that it pretends "big oil" and "big coal" are still funding climate research. All of the large firms, stopped funding research a year or two ago. The article is hopelessly POV in that the climate changes all the time. What is currently being denied by some scientists is that the current alarmism is justified or that the recent warming is predominantly the fault of anthropogenic CO2. These scientists include Roger A. Pielke, John Christy, Nir Shaviv, Henrik Svensmark, Syun-Ichi Akasofu, George Kukla. These guys have never taken money from "big oil" or "big coal." This article is attempting to ridicule a valid scientific position held by some of the most respected and prolific climate researchers on the planet, including professors of climate science at Ivy League schools. Supporters of the article have evidently bought into the idea that "the science is settled." Nothing could be further from the truth. The more science that comes out the more we realize that this whole idea has been overblown. 1998 is still the warmest year on record, even according to Phil Jones. The PDO has switched to a cooler mode and South America is currently suffering through the coldest winter it has had in 90 years. And it turns out that a good many of the weather stations in the U.S. (and probably elsewhere) are poorly sited due to land use/land cover changes resulting in an artificial warming bias in the temperature record. See www.surfacestations.org to see some of the pictures for yourself. Earlier studies indicate more than 12% of weather stations are poorly sited and subject to an artificial warming bias of more than 3 degrees.[5] If this is accurate and averaged over the globe, more than half of the perceived warming the IPCC talks about is an artifact of poorly sited weather stations. Again, this article is ridiculing some of the leading climate scientists for a valid scientific position. It should be speedy deleted. RonCram 14:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ron, I suggest that you read WP:CSD and reconsider your vote. Apart from the technical issue, the truth about global warming is completely irrelevant for the existence and notability of climate change denial. --Stephan Schulz 15:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Huh? The fact that an article assumes that global warming is an absolute truth seems pretty much related to me with the fact that this article makes a living out of the fact that some people deny global warming... All those voting for Keep should read about scientism and its counterpart, epistemology. --Childhood's End 15:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? Do you collect your premises on the street? You certainly don't seem to refer to my comment... I can deny things that a true just as well as I can deny things that are false. Moreover, I can even deny things that I believe to be true just as well as those I believe to be false. The different cases may have different implication for my morality and my knowledge, but that is a rather different issues. --Stephan Schulz 16:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you can deny whatever you want. You're totally entitled to do it and I did not deny it. But that would not necessarily be correct to publish an article on Wikipedia about partisan publications making a living out of conspiracy theories about your beliefs. As a sidenote, I did refer to your previous comment to the extent that you suggested that "the truth about global warming is completely irrelevant for the existence and notability of climate change denial". You should ackowledge that the latter would not be notable if it was not for the former being assumed. --Childhood's End 18:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why is "out of date" being used so frequently as a reason for deletion? If it's so obviously out of date, provide more recent citations. As for your "surface stations" argument, read the Wikipedia article on them and how they correlate with satellite temperature measurements. It seems that the "surface stations" argument is the latest in the campaign of disinformation (of which I think you are a victim and not an initiator). Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 15:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Stephen, the article assumes the accuracy of the global warming faith. I am simply pointing out that the entire foundation of the article is wrong. If the author of the article thinks people need to know that "big oil" funding some early research, that should be in the Global warming controversy article. I do not want to censor the information but this article is misleading. Benhocking, I am fully aware of Satellite temperature measurements. Unfortunately, I am not able to correct all of the misinformation on Wikipedia. However, you should know that two of the biggest AGW deniers are John Christy and Roy Spencer who keep their own satellite temperature record and are skeptics for that reason.RonCram 19:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It falls into the category for "speedy delete" because it is an attack page on all scientists who disagree with AGW. RonCram 19:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep unless you too, are in denial of this denial. Burntsauce 17:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge/redirect to global warming controversy. The well-documented attempts to manipulate science, and the funding and background of the "denial" movement described in this article, are clearly notable and should be covered in depth, but I would prefer to see that coverage in the "global warming controversy" article rather than here. I'm concerned that this is a bit of POV fork from that parent article, and that its controversial title will overshadow the content. Even AIDS denialism redirects to AIDS reappraisal, although in that case denialism is both the more appropriate and more widespread term. MastCell Talk 19:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to global warming controversy. This material would help to balance the excess weight currently given to the anti-science side in that article. BTW, I personally prefer "delusionism", as a rhetorical term, to describe the wishful thinking of people who want the physical world to conform to their political opinions or financial interest. However, it's definitely a neologism :-).JQ 03:17, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
'Comment' Come on John. Questionning scientific theories is anti-scientific? Karl Popper probably no longer rests in peace with the current mindset of our world nowadays... Also, by "people who want the physical world to conform to their political opinions or financial interest", you certainly speak of climate modellers? --Childhood's End 12:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is, when the "questioner" doesn't really want answers. This is the difference between a denialist and a skeptic: a skeptic expresses concerns, and has true interest in whether and how they get answered; a denier may masquerade his polemics in "I'm just questioning", but his opinion is predetermined and he's only interested in polemics. Digwuren 17:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
'Comment'I understand and respect MastCell and John's position regarding merging, but feel that collapsing this into the controversy entry is problematic. What Exxon et al funded in their misinformation campaign was precisely the redescription of scientific consensus as controversy. Also, this article is not about global warming--it's primarily about a corporate misinformation campaign. I think the separate entry therefore helps us distinguish between a clandestine and manipulative effort to turn public discourse and the content of that discourse itself.Benzocane 13:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The corporate misinformation campaign is really an inextricable part of the "global warming controversy", and I think more effectively dealt with in that article. Cf. passive smoking and the scientific "controversy" funded by the tobacco industry. MastCell Talk 21:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If you have a second, could you explain how the term presupposes the validity of a particular position? If Exxon et al sponsored the denial of scientific consensus -- and those facts have not been challenged -- then doesn't it describe a historical phenomenon, not a partial POV? Or is your position that the British Royal Society, the UCS, etc., made all of this up? And if that's your position, are there sources to support it? Thanks!Benzocane 00:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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