Talk:Criticism of Muhammad

Update

I don't think the section on Non-Muslim views needs to touch the views of 19th century scholars. The idea of dividing Muhammad's life into two sections, and viewing Muhammad sincere in one of them and insincere in the other one, like many other past theories, is now rejected. I don't think we need to mention that at all. --Aminz 05:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

or we can mention it. either way. --Aminz 05:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Banu Qurayza had it coming?

Please justify the statement I labelled dubious, that the Jews had broken a treaty with Muhammad. Arrow740 02:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Of what value is doubting the redemptive elements of a story which exists only in sources which include those elements? Doubting the veracity of the whole story seems more appropriate than vilifying Muhammad by doubting a detail (unless of course you're bent on lending support to some forgone conclusions about him). Not to mention that later scholars as well as contemporaries of Ibn Ishaq (already 145 years removed from what would have been the actual fact) greatly doubted the validity of this report, which in itself is presented as but a minor detail David80 12:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Intro section

I made a decision to delete the intro section, as I believe the article is actually better without it. It should be about what he has been criticized for, who has criticized him and why they have criticized him, or in other words a short summary of the whole article. The intro section that was there, started out with telling us how great Muslims believe that Muhammad was, then there was just one line mentioning that he has been criticized, and it then finished with Watt telling us how wrong these critics of Muhammad are. That is just not acceptable. -- Karl Meier 11:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was clearly biased and in violation of WP:LEAD, as it did not reflect the article accurately at all. Other articles should get this same treatment. Arrow740 11:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Secular historians

Why did you remove this, Aminz?

Secular historians generally decline to address the question of whether the messages Muhammad reported being revealed to him were from "his unconscious, the collective unconscious functioning in him, or from some divine source", but they acknowledge that some of the material came from "beyond his conscious mind."

Arrow740 09:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

That's Watt's belief and it is already included. --Aminz 09:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to give more information on individuals before giving their interpretations or beliefs on topic? The article currently mentions Ibn Ishaq, W. Montgomery Watt, and Ibn Warraq without giving any information about any of these individuals. I'm especially concerned as part of the article can be seen as a response to Ibn Warraq's criticisms of Islam, and it seems important to separate the well-respected academic historian Watt from Ibn Warraq, the bestselling author and outstanding critic of Islam who does not work within the same academic tradition. However, a lack of clarity about the significance of scholars seems present throughout the article. I'm also adding a death date to Ibn Ishaq, to clarify that he is not contemporary to Ibn Warraq. Aharriso 03:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Removal

Why are you reverting me Arrow? That modern view is that Muhammad was sincere is asserted by other scholars which I have not named here. The 19th century scholars did really believed Muhammad was sincere in Meccan period.--Aminz 09:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Fine, but this isn't a soapbox for your views. Both sides should be given equal weight. Giving extensive quotes from your side prevents that. Arrow740 20:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The view of "each" scholar should be presented fairly. You can add more quotes from 19th century scholars and add it. That's fine to me. --Aminz 00:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it would work in the interest of wikipedia if your provided info instead of removing it.Bless sins 04:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced statement

I took this out because it was both wrong and unsourced: "Some critics believe this event set a disturbing precedent in Islamic law that established the right of Muslim captors to show no mercy to captives of war." --Aminz 19:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that that (correct) statement will be easy to source. Arrow740 19:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Directory of Sites Critical of Muhammad

Dear Itaqallah, I noticed you returned this sub-heading. I was the one who originally added it. I do appreciate your edit here, but after reading Matt57's comment I realize he has a point and have had a change of heart. Matt is correct, the entire sites themselves are not dedicated to being critical of Muhammad. They are only pages within a entire websites, so the heading "External Links" is more appropriate. Also, the notability is not an issue as you believe. This was pointed out to me by another user... of course the links are not notable enough to be used as PRIMARY SOURCES for information within the article itself. However, the links are plenty notable and especially relevant to the LINKS section (please review that WP:NOTE] refers to topics, and not links). Sorry, that's why I'm going to have to revert to Matt's version. Peace. --ProtectWomen 09:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks ProtectWomen. Aminz and ItaqAllah, also: Titles of the website links dont have to be nuetral. This is an article critical of Muhammed and the links will have the same nature, i.e. a critical nature. The link titles will be the same as the the titles of the linked articles. Also as ProtectWomen pointed out, notability is NOT an issue for External Links. WP:EL. Only RELEVANCE and quality of information is the criteria. I will be adding more links to articles critical of Islam, just to let you know so please do not engage in revert wars.--Matt57 13:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

This Article Does Not Seem Proper

If the title of the article is "Criticisms of Muhammad," then it should contain verifiable and relevent criticisms with a small blurb with a link rebutting the criticism. The article looks like propaganda right now, and was far from what I expected. It appears as though there are people who dislike criticism of Muhammad and, as such, have constructed or modified the page to be more of a "Defense to Criticism of Muhammad." That's now what I was intending to read, and I'm not sure how this has passed the sniffer test.

Its a proper article with everything sourced. Please sign your posts. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 11:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

quote for Arrow740

Recent writers have on the whole been more favourable and have taken the view that Muhammad was absolutely sincere and acted in complete good faith. Francis Buhl emphasized the far-reaching historical significance of the religious movement he inaugurated⁹; while Richard Bell spoke of the eminently practical character of his activity even as a prophet.¹⁰ Tor Andrae examined Muhammad's experience from a psychological standpoint and found it to be genuine, and also that he has a prophetic message for his age and generation.¹¹

this succeeds some discussion about what writers of previous centuries wrote. it's quite a long discussion, so i haven't relayed that here, though glimpses of it i posted here. ITAQALLAH 21:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Added quote from Hirsi calling him a "perverted tyrant"

Ayaan is certainly notable with regards to criticism of Islam and I added this quote in that section. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 13:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

name change

Could who ever changed the title, please change it back. Hypnosadist 21:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

This article needs a lead

The article is missing a lead. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 11:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Needs sourcing

The article says:"Some critics believe this event set a disturbing precedent in Islamic law that established the right of Muslim captors to show no mercy to captives of war."

This needs to be sourced. In fact, it goes against Peters statement that:

Not only did the Jews of Medina reject Muhammad's prophetic claims; they began to connive with his enemies in Mecca to overthrown him. Muhammad's own reaction was determined and progressively more violent. As the Prophets' political strength in the oasis grew, the Jewish tribes of Medina were first banished, then taken and enslaved, and finally executed on the spot. This quite extraordinary behavior is matched by nothing in the Quran, and is quite at odds with Muhammad's treatment of the Jews he encountered outside Medina. We must think then that his action was essentially political, that it was prompted by behavior that he read as treasonous and not some transgressions of the law of God.

So, please source this. --Aminz 08:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any mention of critics in this excerpt. This "extraordinary behavior" or Muhammad, political or otherwise, is essentially unholy. In any case please give the exact quote you are parsing with "According to Norman Stillman, the incident cannot be judge by present-day moral standards." Arrow740 19:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The article says:"Some critics believe this event set a disturbing precedent in Islamic law that established the right of Muslim captors to show no mercy to captives of war."- This needs to be sourced. Re Stillman's quote, he says: "Neither blame nor vindication are in order here. We cannot judge the treatment of the Qurayza by present-day moral standards. Their fate was a bitter one, but not unusual according to the harsh rules of war during that period. As Rudi Paret has observed, Muhammad had to be more concerned with adverse public opinion when he had some date palms cut down during the siege of the Nadīr than when on a given day he had some 600 or more Jews put to the sword....The slaughter of adult males and the enslavement of women and children were common practice throughout the ancient world. See, for example, Deut. 20:13-14, where the Israelites are enjoined to mete out such treatment to their enemies See also the famous tragedy of the Melians in Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, trans. Crawley( New York, 1951), p. 337." --Aminz 01:49, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Made some small changes; also the parts about historical relativism ignore that fact that the interpration of Hadith and Qur'an imply that everything contained therein are models for "all time", as such saying something is presentism would be on point if Muslims didn't claim that everything done then is acceptable for today as well. Will add source to the changes I made as soon as I find it again. Gtadoc 03:53, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, well your changes have been removed per WP:OR, speedily so because of the contentious atmosphere over the content within this article. Once the sources are found, the information should be welcomed, I suppose.--C.Logan 05:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Why isn't Voltaire mentioned?

Why isn't Voltaire and his criticism of Muhammad mentioned in the article? I'd do it myself, but I am not a native speaker of English.