Talk:Frances Bean Cobain

This article was nominated for deletion on 16 September 2005. The result of the discussion was keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

For a September 2004 deletion debate see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Frances Bean Cobain

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Name usage

Please remember when editing this article that it is proper to refer to the subject by their last name, not their first! Pacian 09:51, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes but referring to her as 'Cobain' instead of 'Frances' would easily be misinterpreted as a reference to her father. Averisk

How about "Ms Cobain"?? -- 201.78.233.162 00:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that would probably work best. Sarge Baldy 00:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Frances Farmer

So now, with the latest addition, we have the schizophrenic paragraph that follows:

Frances Cobain was named after the lead singer of The Vaselines, Frances McKee. Her middle name is 'Bean' because Kurt thought she looked like a kidney bean on the ultrasound. She is often said to have the distinctive features of her father. Frances was named after Frances Farmer, a woman fron Seattle that was committed to a mental institution in the 1930's for being a strong willed woman. She ended up with a lobotomy and died in 1952, all because she wanted to be an independent woman, see "Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle". She was NOT named after the Vaseline's singer.

Well, was Frances named after the singer, or after Frances Farmer? We can't give two contradicting versions like this, unless we can attribute them to different sources. Everyking 23:49, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot of debate on where the name came from. IMDB is one source advocating the name did not come from Frances Farmer. Most Nirvana fan pages I can find say the same [1] [2] [3] [4]. Sarge Baldy 04:53, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

I restored the old version because it seems more likely. We might want to include a sentence about how some people think she was named after Frances Farmer, I don't know about that. Everyking 05:46, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Frances just recently knew about the details about her father's death, by her mother." - what date is that referring to? Relative times like "recently" make no sense in an encyclopedia like Wikipedia. Yogi de 15:06, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am rephrasing that page as it also is worded in an ambiguous way such as to insinuate that her father's dead was literally BY her mother. Pacian 09:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Cobain's mother waited until she had turned 13 to tell her the circumstances surrounding her father's death."

This is a bit dubious, since she is 12! Could someone recheck their source? Sarge Baldy 16:22, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I was about to say... john k 23:24, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Was going to comment about that too. Plus, she must be a very sheltered child to not know what happened, although I guess that depends on what those "circumstances" are. 17:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think we should include both, just in case...--FlareNUKE 23:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Courtney was actually the one who told Frances about her father's suicide, when she was 7 years old.

Chronology

This is a bit confusing: "After her father's death on 4 April 1994, custody of her went to her mother until the latter was arrested after an OxyContin overdose in October 2003." So she went into her mother's custody until 6 months earlier? Can someone clarify this? Bjornkri 09:05, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

October 2003 is 6 months earlier than April 1994? Sarge Baldy 10:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Hah! Right, sorry about that, my number-blindness kicks in again... Bjornkri

Name

Excuse me but the general concencus seems to be that frances was indeed named after frances farmer, the evidence is there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.159.11.42 (talk • contribs) 00:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC).

Evidence is where? I don't think people here have a preference either way, but at least my own attempts to research suggest that most sources see her as being named for Frances McKee, and, although a popular rumor, not for Frances Farmer. Sarge Baldy 01:45, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Request deletion

The subject of this article is a child. She may have been dragged through the newspapers by her parents, but she has not herself done anything noteworthy. There is no justification for this article. Individual children should not be discussed by name on Wikipedia, for their own protection. I request a vote for deletion. --Doric Loon 12:23, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

As a forewarning, you might first note that this article was proposed for deletion about a year ago, and that since that time has been considered noteworthy enough a topic for inclusion on both the Finnish and Swedish Wikipedias. If you would like to continue, however, feel free to append the code {{subst:vfd}} to the top of the article, and then follow the steps listed at WP:VfD. Sarge Baldy 00:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, it seems that she solved that problem: she now has given interviews and was the (willing) subject of a feature article and photo spread in September's Teen Vogue. --Delirium 09:51, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

This article was only nominated for deletion because someone mentioned it in the Vfd for the article about Britney Spear's baby. --Fallout boy 04:07, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

It is mentioned that she is a fan of American Idol and attended the season 5 finale. This is impossible since season 5 has barely started. Did the writer mean Season 4 or should ths line be deleted? User:TruthHurts 03:09, 27 January 2005

Good point, I believe I made that addition and it was an error. The date they attended was May 25, 2005.Case 23:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

03-01-07

I think the article sounds like its about her father and mother. I mean you could just include it in the beginning as links to the respective wiki pages. Probably needs an update and filter out some of the details on her father's demise. I mean it just seems that the statement "her father committed suicide when she was ?? " well its just an opinion

blueboy

Speculation

"On 1 April 1994 was the last time Frances' saw her father alive. The two of them played and Kurt sang to his daughter. He told his daughter before leaving that she was his everything and that he loved her."

This is speculation. If no one can back this up with proof within the next few days I may erase it.

"A few days later on 5 April 1994 Kurt Cobain headed up to greenhouse. He looked at how much his beloved daughter had grown and head up the staircase."

I KNOW this is false. I am 99% sure that Courtney was in L.A. at this time and I assume that Francis was with her. Either way, it is even more speculation that is not backed up by any source. Flyerhell 09:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, I don't trust this information. It also definitively states that Kurt Cobain commited suicide, and there is definitely not consensus regarding that. Sarge Baldy 09:30, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, I added a clean-up tag and unverified tag to this article. If I get some free time I will attempt to clean it up, but it will take a lot of work to verify the article and correct the grammar. Flyerhell 09:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Picture

http://www.urbandictionary.com/images.php?imageid=6777 (though a bit dated).

It would work, but there doesn't appear to be any copyright information included. In the FAQ section on the site, it says that it's the responsibility of the submitter to check copyright so it's not necessarily ok to use Averisk 21:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

That would be a rather nice picture, but unfortunately its copyright status remains unclear. Sarge Baldy 23:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

In case you really want to use that picture, a better quality picture can be found on various websites, and credit goes to Kevin Mazur who took it.

Jew

Courtney is Jewish, which makes Frances Jewish also.

No it doesn't. "Jew" is not a "race", it's an ethno-religious identity. She's only a Jew if she identifies as a Jew. Sarge Baldy 02:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, Courtney is not jewish, and Frances isn't jewish either. Not that it's a bad thing, please don't get me wrong, but they're really not.

I think it's funny when people feel they have to point out there is nothing wrong with a fact like, "She's not Jewish." It goes without saying there is nothing wrong with being or not being Jewish, so no qualification is necessary. And Sarge Baldy is right - it is not a race, but an ethno-religious identity. There are no genetic tests to determine one's religious identification.--DavidShankBone 18:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

That's just false. Jewish is BOTH an ethno-religious identity and blood-related. If you're mother's a Jew you're technically a Jew (meaning you don't have to convert to embrace the religion), that's the main difference between Judaism on the one hand and Christianity and Islam on the other.

Is it really relevant? If she identifies with a jewish heritage it could be relevant, but otherwise what does it matter? I mean racially she's part jewish and a bunch of other things but unless something like getting gassed by neo-nazis or her getting involved with that part of her heritage it doesn't matter.

Kurt leaving rehab (statement)

He checked himself out of the rehab center that night and returned home to Seattle.

The Kurt Cobain article on qikipedia doesn't have this. It states he just climbed over the fence and left, which is possibly to be understood as "ran away". Which one is true? Both?

I can't fix the one article which is wrong (referencing WP as an information source is a bad thing, right? Right). Someone do this?

--Cyhatch 17:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

If your mother is a Jew then you technically are a Jew whether you identify with the religion or not.

Maynard James Keenan

can someone expand on this trivia point? wtf does Maynard James Keenan have to do with the shirts? did he create them?GURT 17:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

^I'm having the same issues, the sentence isn't clear enough. Can someone with more information edit this please? Shaybear♥

yes he created the shirts and sold them online. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.214.138.165 (talk) 22:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Page location

Shouldn't this page be at Frances Cobain? The middle names of people aren't generally included in the title of their WP articles - her father's page isn't located at Kurt Donald Cobain (I realise that a re-direct does exist at that location but the main article itself isn't at that location........) ChrisTheDude 11:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's because she's just better known with her middle name intact. --FlareNUKE 07:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

As she gets older...

I wonder if she'll launch her own music career, in the manner of Kelly Osbourne? I know this isn't really talk page material as it's violating WP:CRYSTAL, but it'll be something to watch out for in the future...--HisSpaceResearch 16:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

""He checked himself out of the rehab center that night and returned home to Seattle.""

Dind't Kurt Cobain scape? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.241.38.16 (talk) 23:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

Article is icky

It is. --FlareNUKE 04:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Please elaborate. 212.139.171.139 16:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's a rude article with lots of overly persuasive writing and little compassion/interest for Frances herself. I'm going to change it up. Mistertruffles 01:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Pretty much, it has more to do with Courtney Love and Kurt Cobain than Frances herself, the title "Early Life" also implies that she is now much older when in fact, the "Early Life" is right now all she has. --FlareNUKE 03:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

When I wrote 'please elaborate' I hadn't read the article thoroughly.Man, I just read this article through, and it's pointless. It's more about Kurt and Courteny than about Frances. And you're right about the 'early life' section. She's still in early life. How do you nominate an article for deletion? Nukleoptra 17:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to nominate an article for deletion, but I second the motion. This article it IS completely pointless. Halfempty85 01:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't remove it. I think she's notable enough to deserve a page. However, it needs serious work, even if that would involve reducing it to stub form...Suzarella 03:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

I've done my best to do something with this article, but it still needs a lot of work.. I've also added the only image I could find that these isn't a copyright issue with.It's not a very clear one, but it'll have to suffice for the moment. I also removed the neutrality tag, as I couldn't see the problem with the article in that respect to begin with, and I can't seem to find any discussion here. Hope that's alright Suzarella 17:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Dating Kyle Campbell?

An editor has been adding this information to the article. The first several times it was unsourced. Then the source was a fan site and I couldn't see where the information was on there. Now the information is sourced by a reference to a recent VH1 documentary. I haven't see the documentary, so I don't know how accurate this is. My main concern is that I can't find this information anywhere. Google doesn't even turn up anything on this guy--let alone him dating Frances Cobain. Has anybody see the documentary? janejellyroll 09:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen the documentary, but even if she is dating someone, particularly someone who is just a member of the public, it isn't of encyclopaedic importance and really shouldn't be in the article. 81.159.135.83 21:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

And it's not really fair on the kid, documenting her dates at such a tender age. ;) Nukleoptra 19:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Picture?

This picture is absolute crap. Surely someone has a better one? You cant see her at all with this one. (I have one with her and courtney but im not sure what the copyright is) Ka5hmir 07:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

"Kurt Cobain was found dead in his home on the morning of April 8, 1994. " on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Cobain sais it was 5 April (i remember to be 4 .. but maybe 5 is the official date)