Talk:Karyn Kupcinet

This murder was down the street from where I lived as a child with my aspiring actress mother. It was very scary for a 7 year old to deal with. West Hollywood was a quiet, nice place to live in those days. I am sorry it was never solved and the killer brought to justice.

The Quotes

The quotes in this article seem a bit excessive to me. The info is good, but it relies on the book far too much. It's hard to take things as fact when it's the stated opinion of an author. Plus, the quotes are a little confusing, especially towards the end.

I also changed the fact about there not being any E! THS on Karyn. She had one because I vividly remember watching it eons ago. Not too sure about the Mysteries & Scandals episode though. I can't find anything to back that up.

Unless someone objects, I'm going to reword the quotes and remove they Mysteries & Scandals info. Pinkadelica 10:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Please leave the article the way it is as of Saturday, September 15, 2007. Thank you. James Ellroy's book is hardly the only source. Did you see the endnotes for Irv Kupcinet's newspaper columns ? And for the newspaper called New York Journal American ? They are in there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.212.102.10 (talk) 23:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

False Link Between A 1963 Associated Press Report And Robert Kennedy's Schedule In 1968

Not only is it absurd that Karyn Kupcinet had anything to do with a 1963 Associated Press report of an Oxnard, California woman forewarning a telephone operator of the JFK assassination, but connecting this report to the political events of 1968 is also ridiculous.

Listen, I did not believe Karyn made the phone call. Some womsn did just that and the FBI said so. A lot of things are coming out about Bobby Kennedy. I think it's unlikely that he went to the phone company and then the legal practice to find the woman's name. But there are people who say it's true. Because "Penn Jones" allegedly put the call on Nov.22 at 10:10 am PT and it was an upset woman trying to place a person-to-person call to Chicago, I at first believed it. But Oxnard? I don't think so. But there are Dallas ties to that area in CA and I think the woman who made the call that they were going to kill Kennedy must have been murdered. It can't be Karyn, although she might have been in a state, if you know what I mean.Kc440 03:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

A claim that Robert Kennedy planned to visit this woman in Oxnard on the night of June 5, 1968 to ask her who shot his brother cannot be true. Sirhan Sirhan approached him with a gun at 12:16 a.m. in the small hours of June 5. They were inside the Ambassador Hotel near downtown Los Angeles at the time. Kennedy had been inside the hotel for several hours as he awaited returns from voting booths for the California primary. He rested in bed in his hotel room until he was ready to deliver his victory speech, walking with his entourage directly from their suite to the Embassy Ballroom where a podium, microphone and sound movie cameras were ready for him. He had spent the previous afternoon (June 4) with some of his children at the beachside Malibu home of movie director John Frankenheimer, which was not near Oxnard.

There is no way Bobby could have traveled from Frankenheimer's home to Oxnard, which was in the opposite direction from the Ambassador, without people reminiscing about such a thing decades later. Frankenheimer reminisced many times about driving Bobby from Malibu to the Ambassador Hotel, and he never mentioned an out-of-the-way trip to Oxnard. Every important thing that Bobby did that day was recalled in magazines, books and TV documentaries. His own family admitted that while on Frankenheimer's property, Bobby's son David, just a few days away from his thirteenth birthday, almost drowned in the ocean and then Bobby saved his life. David Kennedy and John Frankenheimer were traumatized by what would happen hours later (shortly after midnight) and became substance abusers. If you insinuate that they kept secrets about an unknown stranger in Oxnard and that they covered up her connection to a historical puzzle that millions of people wanted to solve, you're doing a terrible thing.

Even if you try to place a Kennedy visit to Oxnard yet another day earlier, June 3, you have a roadblock. We have color film of Bobby campaigning in front of poor Latino people in Los Angeles. He also campaigned in a hippie neighborhood of San Francisco during the busy schedule he kept between the Oregon primary, which he lost, and California, where things looked more optimistic. He couldn't very well campaign on June 4, when voters had to visit the polls quickly and then return to work or school. (It was not a holiday like the November election day.) So Bobby spent quality time with some of his ten children on the beach next to a friend's house, and the friend saved him the strain of driving on Los Angeles freeways during afternoon rush hour. It was a weekday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.81.203.13 (talk) 01:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Avoiding Gossip That Makes The Victim Look Bad

I deleted the stuff about Karyn and her "Mrs. G. Goes To College" castmate Gertrude Berg allegedly not getting along. Ms. Berg was more than an actress. She was one of the first women to develop a network radio series and then a network TV series. She fought several battles with advertisers over what "The Goldbergs" could put on the air. I'm not saying the stories about the two women are false. I'm asking, "Why bring them up now that both women have been dead for more than forty years ?"

Unless you accuse Gertrude Berg of murder, then all you're doing is making a murder victim look like a ditzy, catfighting starlet who didn't care about the hard work it took to make a TV series. Karyn was a lot more than that. Bette Davis, hardly a dummy, deserves to be remembered for a lot more than her bad relationship with Joan Crawford. Gossipy people do a lot of damage to the dead on the Internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.98.26 (talk) 22:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

What I know about Gertrude Berg and Karyn Kupcinet I learned from reading James Ellroy's Crime Wave, "The Glamour Jungle." It illustrates how unhappy she was in Hollywood. I'd even say in the whole profession. The Housekeeper in the Chicago Magazine piece said Karyn was "talked into" becoming an actress. Even her mother said she couldn't take rejection on True Hollywood Story.Kc440 04:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe she couldn't take rejection, but there is no evidence that Karyn didn't want to be an actress. Quite the contrary. You are inventing some of what she wrote in her diary as quoted by James Ellroy. All she said was "Gertrude impossible." She hinted that somebody on Berg's TV show didn't like her appearance, but that doesn't mean it was Berg. It takes hundreds of people to make a TV sitcom. Please don't put down Berg and Kupinet, both dead for more than 40 years, just for the sake of cutting people down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.81.222.92 (talk) 22:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Today I visited The Paley Center for Media where I saw the only evidence of Karyn Kupcinet that the center has. It has one episode of "Mrs. G Goes To College." You can see it by visiting this center either in New York City or Beverly Hills.

The copyright in the closing credits is 1961. Karyn has a small part. She is one of several young college students who attend a reception for an older poetess who is visiting the campus. Her visit makes Mrs. G and the students feel romantic when they learn that the poetess wants to visit with one of their college's professors, played by Cedric Hardwicke, forty years after they were an item. On two occasions, Karyn exclaims demurely, "Forty years!"

I can't say much else. She is several inches shorter than most of the other college students, including an actress who later became famous as "Helen" on The Andy Griffith Show. Yes, I know Karyn herself had acted on "Griffith" under another stage name. I also can say that she is so demure and so young that it is sickening that people link her death to an event that had nothing to do with her father according to what he said repeatedly over many years. I feel bad that before this "strange" Internet became popular, there were obsessive, rude people who met Irv Kupcinet in person and threw the conspiracy theory in his face even though he already had discredited it.

In the era before land lines had caller ID, which lasted until the early 1990s at Irv Kupcinet's office, the poor man may have gotten some phone calls from conspiracy people out of the blue asking him how to identify the JFK conspirators in Hollywood. As horrible as it is for someone as young as the lady I saw at the Paley Center to die at the hands of a psychopath, obsessive people just make it worse when they twist the truth and throw a weird fantasy in the face of the lady's father. He asks them to stop and they keep going like the Energizer village idiot. It is also sickening that this man lived to his 90s, yet Internet people just care about the fact that he's dead and they can do whatever they want to him. I hope you live to your 90s and I hope you give up this hurtful nonsense long before then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.81.222.92 (talk) 01:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

David Lange

David Lange died a year and a half ago. He was living in Connecticut with one of his sisters. Hope Lange, the actress and older sister of David's, predeceased him.

His career as a Hollywood producer was ruined due to the murder of Karyn Kupcinet. Lange moved in below Karyn Kupcinet's apartment in West Hollywood just days before Karyn was killed. He was a heavy drinker and womanizer. At the time he was seeing Natalie Wood. The Kupcinets believed he was the killer of their daughter, Karyn.Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

What is your source on Lange's career getting ruined by it ? His name was never published in connection with Kupcinet until 1970, when a chapter of a book about Hollywood scandals linked him to the mystery. The Los Angeles newspaper accounts from 1963 didn't suggest in any way that Lange had anything to do with Karyn's death. And those newspapers never mentioned her name again after December 6 (Herald-Examiner) and 8 (Times). Her body was found just a week before that: November 30. The National Enquirer never accused Lange of anything.

If Irv Kupcinet believed David Lange was the killer, he never said so in his newspaper column. In 1988 he came out with his autobiography in which he said David knew a group of people who were responsible, but David himself didn't kill her. Irv said David was in bed with a girlfriend late Wednesday night when the girlfriend heard a commotion of people running up and down the stairs in the direction of Karyn's unit, but there were other units on her floor where young women lived. The girlfriend told sheriffs that someone knocked on David's door, he got out of bed to answer it and then returned to bed refusing to comment on it. Sheriffs questioned David Lange, and he said his girlfriend made up that story. By 1988, when Irv told his readers about this, nobody in Hollywood would have cared about it. Nobody in the entertainment business badmouths an obscure brother of a faded TV sitcom star based on hearsay from 25 years ago.

Even if Lange's girlfriend told the truth, how does it prove the commotion on the stairs had anything to do with Karyn Kupcinet's death ?

Irv Kupcinet described it in his book. The Goddards, some neighbors and finally the cops and coroner were making the commotion. Mark Goddard was running around, yelling, "Suicide, suicide, there's been a suicide." He said this on Karyn's True Hollywood Story.Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

How does that make Mark Goddard suspicious ? There is no evidence that he visited the apartment on the night Karyn died. She went to HIS house on Coldwater Canyon Avenue that night.

Maybe it was a bunch of Lange's drunken friends who didn't enjoy visiting their families for Thanksgiving and they were enjoying their day off from work -- if any of them had steady jobs.

Lange had dinner at his sister's house, Hope Lange.Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Karyn herself wasn't planning to travel to Illinois for Thanksgiving even though her mother had begged her to do that. And Karyn did her last known acting job two months earlier: "Perry Mason." It didn't get on the air until January, but that long delay was and is common for network series that have been getting high Nielsens for a long time. "Perry Mason" had been a hit for six years when Karyn had her gig on it. Raymond Burr, on whose good acting skills the show depended, traveled a lot, eventually going to Vietnam many times.

Every year, on Thanksgiving, Karyn would attend the dinner the Kupcinets threw for actors who were away from home. Karyn was in too deep a depression and was afraid it would show. Only a year before, on Thanksgiving, Prine kept calling her in Chicago and telling her he loved her. Now there would be no phonecalls. She was too despondent. She filmed the Perry Mason a few weeks before and told her mother she still had work to do on it (a lie) and that's why she couldn't come up for the holidays. She had a good-sized role on that.Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

In summary, Karyn's own lifestyle and allowance from her parents suggest that other residents of her building -- besides her and David Lange -- could have been mooching off family, too. Mooching men tend to party together a lot more than a mooching rich girl who is in love with an actor who doesn't love her back. Irv and Essee had to have been helping their daughter at the end on account of her many taxicab rides and visits to hairdressers and Beverly Hills boutiques. Oh, and I find it very nasty to accuse Andrew Prine of the crime. At least the girl he dated on the night of the tragedy verified his story. He didn't go to Karyn's apartment that night. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.212.102.10 (talk) 23:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Irv and Essee Kupcinet believed David Lange killed Karyn. In his book, Kup: A Man, an Era, a City, pg 186 -188 he names Lange as the killer.Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

No, he doesn't. I'm looking at those pages. He says he and his wife both know who killed their daughter, but he doesn't say who. Two pages before that he says David Lange answered a knock on his door from a group that was making a commotion running up and down the stairs, then David returned to bed with his girlfriend and kept quiet. Irv implies that a person or persons in the group outside David's door killed Karyn, and David merely knew about it.

He describes Andrew Prine as not a desirable man, pg 190. There are no ifs, ands or buts as to what Irv believed.Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Irv never published anything about what he believed until the crime was 25 years old, which means none of the suspects could have had their careers ruined. When Irv came out with that book, it said David Lange knew the identity of an unknown person or persons who had killed his daughter Karyn. Irv said Andrew Prine was not the most desirable man Karyn could have dated, but that doesn't mean Irv suspected Andrew of a connection to the crime. By "not desirable" Irv could have meant that Andrew was not an actor whom actresses considered an ideal catch for a relationship or marriage. Maybe Irv heard through his Hollywood connections that Andrew Prine was not very good-looking or not very charming for a date. Andrew was divorced, but so what ? Many people in Los Angeles got divorced then.

David Lange came to California under his sister's aegis -- Hope Lange, the actress -- because he couldn't hold a job. Lange was a terrible alcoholic. In his autobiography, John Cheever told of this. Cheever was having an affair with Hope at the time.Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

John Cheever was also a violent alcoholic who associated with criminals and died by making a stupid mistake, so why should I believe him ?

At this early stage of life, Lange was a charming n'er do well. He was having a serious relationship with Natalie Wood. Natalie was also alcoholic.Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Natalie Wood was just 25 years old then, and a book written by her own sister says, "She was not an alcoholic by any stretch of the imagination" but she started to drink too much after the age of 40, dissatisfied with the parts and screenplays she was getting. Lana does not refer to any serious issues that Natalie may have had prior to a 1966 suicide attempt and resulting hospitalization. Also, all of her relationships that have been published were with other famous and/or wealthy men, such as a behind-the-scenes agent named Richard Gregson. There was a millionaire European named Vladimir Blatnik. But nothing has been published about her paying attention to a violent alcoholic nobody, and making this claim at this late date is an insult to Natalie's memory. Mart Crowley is alive, and he would be hurt by it.

On the night of the murder, he was there in the complex (Monterey Apts) parking lot, extremely drunk. He walked into a woman's apartment on Sunday without knocking and claimed he was the killer. He told this woman that he had been up at Karyn's apartment on Friday (after Thanksgiving). The door was unlocked, but he didn't look in. What stopped him from walking into Karyn's apartment, as he had this woman's?Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

How do we know he entered Karyn's apartment? Drinking doesn't make someone a killer. There was a lot of drinking in Hollywood then. Judy Garland lived in Los Angeles in late 1963 even though she preferred New York because she was doing her ill-fated CBS variety show. Although she had a house in Brentwood, she sometimes spent the night in Mel Torme's home, and at least once he had to drive her to a hospital emergency room because of stupid behavior. Many killers have been known to do other stupid things, so maybe Ms. Garland killed Karyn Kupcinet. There is a way you can find out how close Mel Torme's house was to Kupcinet's apartment.

As far as his career goes, what career? His brother-in-law, Alan Pakula, hired him as a gofer. He later had a screen credit as "co-producer" on Klute.Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

What evidence do you have that Mr. Lange did not have a full workload as producer of that movie? Filmed on location in New York City, it reflected the increasing crime rate in the Big Apple and the increasing use of hard drugs among rich white people.

You are deliberately distorting the facts about Karyn's life. I don't think people can take you seriously as you never sign what you've written.Kc440 03:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[Don't speak for "people." You are one person. If my identity makes a difference to you, then you have issues. If you were a New York literary agent, then I would understand. But you're not. I never met Karyn Kupcinet, therefore my identity is irrelevant. I am citing published sources almost everywhere I write.]

But your insight into these published sources is badly skewed. I almost think someone is pulling my leg. I know more about Karyn Kupcinet than you'll ever know, at the rate you're going. You're a vandal on this page. Stay away from here.04:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

You're a McCarthyist troll the way you accuse Mark Goddard and Andrew Prine. Neither of them could have done the crime. I will not go away as long as you do what Joe McCarthy did. If you know so much about Karyn Kupcinet, please explain how she spent the three days between her return from Palm Springs and her taxicab ride to the Goddards for dinner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.81.203.13 (talk) 22:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC) We know on Monday she had prescriptions refilled. It was a National Day of Mourning for President Kennedy. He was being buried. Little 'John-John' saluted his father's coffin. It was a very sad day. Knowing her, Karyn might have slipped into a deeper depression. She informed the Goddards the night she died that she had seen a psychiatrist. By Wednesday, she was very upset and "hallucinating." There was a baby on her doorstep. She was taking methamphetamine. She argued on the phone with Andrew Prine {see Ellroy and newspaper accounts of Prine's alibi). I can see why the police considered Prine the main suspect. He could have killed her, as could the 2 male friends that visited her that night, or David Lange, driving drunk into the courtyard at the approx. time of death. Even Mark Goddard was under suspicion. But Irv called the Goddards good friends of Karyn's. Could someone have stalked her? Was she killed by a psycho? Was she killed by a hit man from Chicago at Paul Dorfman's request to stop Irv from investigating the Chicago angle of the Assassination? Did Irv's Zionism make her a victim?

You see, it's endless. I am not accusing someone, except I think the Chicago link has merit. As for the fellows, they all had rotten alibis. It was a circus.Kc440 19:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Only David Lange's alibi was "rotten." Nonetheless, your description of him being drunk in the building's "parking lot" suggests that you haven't visited the building, which is still there, or you've forgotten details. It has an underground parking garage. Unless the management converted some ground-floor units to a garage later in the 1960s or 1970s, then the parking lot to which you refer never existed. This is relevant because people familiar with heavy-drinking, lazy young white men can tell you that they are not likely to make commotions in an underground garage late at night. An outdoor lot that is even with the street, yes. But not underground.

Andrew Prine's alibi had nothing wrong with it. Anna Capri, with whom you might not be familiar, verified his story that they saw the film "A Streetcar Named Desire" at what was then called the New Yorker Theatre. It was popular with serious actors for its revival of classics and foreign films. To this day it operates with one screen only and still caters to smart people. The name is the New Beverly Cinema now. Even in 1963, It was NOT a place where a sexually aggressive, violent guy took his date so they could make love inside the theater without worrying about the vice squad. You want to avoid the vice squad, then go to a cinema that's showing a new American piece of crap like "Promises, Promises." You're not gonna go to the New Yorker Theatre.

Mark Goddard's alibi had nothing wrong with it, either. He and his wife Marcia were photographed looking shocked and very sad on Saturday night, Nov. 30 for the Los Angeles Times. You can find that photo on microfilm. Evidently you haven't.

There are major problems with your ignorant theory about Paul Dorfman. First, Irv Kupcinet would have told people about any threats or warnings he might have received from people. Of course, he wouldn't have told them to people outside his family when the events were fresh in the 1960s. But at some point during the writing of his 1988 book, or during the many years he kept working after that, he would have told people that Mr. Dorfman had targeted Karyn as a preemptive strike against Irv investigating JFK's murder. Yet another strike against your lunacy is that Irv wasn't the type of reporter who would investigate the crime, anyway. Have you ever read a single Xerox of a "Kup" column ? Ironically, a column that was similar to his in 1963 was Dorothy Kilgallen's Voice of Broadway, but you are ignoring her scoops on the assassination in order to focus on a 22-year-old rich girl whose father made a lot of money spilling every secret he knew. Irv Kupcinet was so interested in talking that even 35 years later he told James Ellroy that nobody had threatened his daughter in connection with investigating -- or not investagating -- Oswald. Or is James Ellroy part of the conspiracy ?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.98.26 (talk) 19:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC) No, Jack Ruby is a part of this theory. Jack Rubenstein from Chicago.

Firstly, I would like to say that we have to come to a concensus about Karyn Kucinet. Erasing my material is not the way to do this. I don't know who you are. There seems to me to be something personal about your attacks on my theories. Of course I'm going to theorize about her death. The page reads so crazy now. If I say something is a theory, it is what it is. Why should you erase it? Also, the next time my contributions are erased, I'm going to report it.--Kc440 02:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The next time you humiliate Jerry Kupcinet, I will accuse YOUR dead relatives of exposing the JFK conspiracy in their neighborhood community newsletter in 1963. Are any of them dead ? If yes, that means Paul Dorfman killed them in order to scare you into keeping quiet. If you erase anything I write, I'm going to report it to the Bush family.

There is a Yahoo group for Karyn. If you read through it, you'll see we went through every theory. But it's nice to know someone cares enough about this late actress to argue over her.

You don't care. If you did, you wouldn't humiliate her memory. You wouldn't humiliate her brother Jerry, who lives in California. He was the TV producer who made Richard Simmons' first TV show a big success in 1981. Isn't that great ?

I'm just worried about putting stress on the family. Even though Irv, himself, was a gossip columnist. But he considered himself a top-notch journalist, and I think he felt Ruby was the scoop of a lifetime. Thanks for caring and I hope there's nothing personal about it. It's strange on the Internet.--Kc440 17:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Irv Kupcinet did not consider himself an investigative reporter. You had to be an investigative reporter to dig into the Oswald / Ruby story. Everyone who could read a newspaper in 1963 knew that. Everyone, including Paul Dorfman, who was hardly an illiterate stupid wino, knew that "Kup's column" consisted entirely of short items separated by dots. Dorfman knew that Kup's column was the wrong place for explaining the president's murder. Dorfman did not threaten Kupcinet into staying away from Oswald / Ruby because he didn't have to. Kupcinet had to stay away from it in order to write his column every day. He was busy writing short items about entertainment gossip and short items about the latest touchdown scored by the Chicago Bears.

You have every right to be "worried about putting stress on the family." Stop spouting your nonsense about Mr. Dorfman threatening the Kupcinet family and then the stress disappears. If you really want me to keep your nonsense about Dorfman / Kupcinet on this page, then I will have to humiliate YOUR family by linking all YOUR dead relatives to a Mafia hit squad and the JFK conspiracy. I can find their names. I am worried about putting stress on your family. If I humiliate them, that takes away the stress. Right ?

Say what you want about my bizarre relatives. I am not into humiliating people. This woman was murdered. The Kupcinets wanted it resolved. And you haven't gone through all the theories yet about her death. I'm sorry, but Irv knew a good story when he saw one. He did consider himself a serious journalist.Kc440 03:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

She was probably murdered, but it had nothing to do with Lee Oswald or Jack Ruby or Paul Dorfman. Of course, the Kupcinets wanted it resolved, but they didn't work in the Los Angeles County Sheriffs' Office. They had to work for a living in Illinois. Irv Kupcinet told James Ellroy and people who watched Oliver Stone's JFK film that his daughter's death had nothing to do with Oswald or Ruby. That means her death had nothing to do with Oswald or Ruby. In Irv's memoir he said he talked to Paul Dorfman immediately after Ruby shot Oswald. That's it. Irv's daughter was alive at the time.

Dorfman never warned Irv Kupcinet away from investigating Oswald or Ruby. Nobody contacted Irv to suggest that his daughter's death was supposed to scare him into backing off from a story. He was in no position to investigate the story, anyway. He considered himself a serious journalist, but he was stuck with a column that consisted of short items about gossip, nightclubs and football. He was in no position to write long articles about the president's murder. Other reporters were, such as the nationally respected Theo Wilson of the New York Daily News. She visited Dallas to cover Jack Ruby's trial. She lived to be 77 years old in 1996. Her son is alive today. How come nobody killed him ? Or her ? Dorothy Kilgallen wrote full - length articles on Jack Ruby in addition to her gossip column. She had a private interview with Ruby. How come nobody says she was murdered ? Connecting Ruby to a 22-year-old actress who never met anyone from Dallas is an insult to women's intelligence. You're looking at the wrong woman.

Karyn Kupcinet was an actress who lived and worked in Los Angeles. Her father was a gossip columnist who was allowed to live for forty years after Ruby shot Oswald. The conspirators left him alone, and they left his actress / daughter alone. A serious journalist cannot moonlight as a Hollywood actress. Only a misogynistic kook would think a woman would do that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.81.203.13 (talk) 03:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Revert

Apparently there has been some sort of argument going on here as my changes were reverted with the edit summary "This new version of the article is a compromise between two warring contributors to Wikipedia. Please leave it alone." I have no interest or stake in this argument but I must note that this was terribly inappropriate. While I am glad whenever two warring parties manage to forge a compromise, this does not mean that the article becomes frozen in place nor does it mean that the input of all other editors can be ignored. This was all the more inappropriate because of the nature of the material restore. You should not remove proper formatting like italics nor should you restore inappropriate citations that say "go look in a database" instead of referring to specific sources. The long rambling sections should not have been restored either; such speculation and commentary would be appropriate for an essay about the case, but not for a neutral encyclopedia article. Stick to the facts. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 01:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The non-JFK conspiracy passages don't ramble any more than the pro-JFK conspiracy ones. Claiming that the conspirators wanted to shut up Irv Kupcinet goes against what the man said many times. If you do it anyway, you are rambling.

I did NOT SAY, "Go look in a database." I referred to several Los Angeles Times articles that ruin the credibility of the doctor who autopsied Karyn Kupcinet. He put an innocent man in jail. It was reported more than once during 1966 and 1967 because it was an ongoing court case. Suppose I spent an hour at the Los Angeles City Library writing down dates and page numbers of the articles. Would you visit the downtown LA library to check them out on microfilm ? If the Times database is wrong, then maybe the people who run it are part of the JFK conspiracy ? How solid is YOUR research ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dooyar (talk • contribs)

I think you have confused me with someone who supports conspiracy. In fact, I've spent many, many hours battling conspiracy nuts here. You can't chalk every editing difference up to the tinfoil hat crowd. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 02:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright then, the passages you see as rambling are actually debunking all three ways that nuts approach this woman. Their three points are: #1 Karyn's father Irv knew the truth about Oswald and Ruby and he told his daughter. This makes no sense because "they" let him live for forty years. #2 "They" killed her as a warning to her father that he better back off from digging into the truth. This is wrong because he said "they" never told him that. #3 She associated with criminals in Los Angeles without telling her father, and one of them told her dangerous secrets. This makes no sense because she told every new friend she made that her father was a powerful journalist, and that revelation would drive "them" away from her.

There. The passages you don't like are debunking those three points. I can't say in the article what I just said in the preceding paragraph. I can't cite the three points because I don't know the identities of the anonymous people who make them here and elsewhere on the web, so I'm "rambling" as a preemptive strike against a rational person believing them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dooyar (talk • contribs)

I think we both agree that the conspiracy claims are bullshit. We can work on finding some mutually acceptable way to say that, but please refrain from removing all changes, including corrections to formatting. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 02:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

A proper citation does not refer to a database and a range of dates. A proper citation refers to a specific article or articles. If you can't refer to them all, then cite the most important ones. If you don't have the articles in front of you, then you shouldn't be using them to support your claims in the article, you should be using the sources you actually have. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 02:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

You have to visit a branch of the Los Angeles City Library system to see that database. If you go to www.lapl.org on your home computer, it won't let you in there. I cannot visit the library again until Monday. Tomorrow is Sunday, and the only branch open then is the one downtown, and its Sunday time slots are usually booked the day before. I have somewhere to go tomorrow. I have a life, but I can tell you that I saw those Los Angeles Times articles with my own eyes. They say the man who autopsied Karyn Kupcinet in 1963 put an innocent man in jail three years later. He said the man's girlfriend was murdered by strangulation -- the manner in which Karyn allegedly died -- but it turned out that the alcoholic doctor broke her neck during the autopsy. James Ellroy, whom I cited in other footnotes, also said this doctor was "a juicehead."

Ellroy called Karyn "a hophead." I was nice enough to omit that from the article in order to spare Karyn's memory a disservice. Earlier this week I did a "revert" of my nemesis' inclusion of a feud between Karyn and one of her television co-stars, Gertrude Berg. Gertrude didn't like Karyn's hairdo or something like that ? That is totally unnecessary for this article considering that nobody ever cuts down Gertrude Berg, who died in 1966.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dooyar (talk • contribs)

I have no doubt that your research is accurate. There is no hurry for you to cite it properly. Speed is not essential here. The point is not that you must cite it immediately, but that you simply can't point people to the database and say "search 1963 (or whenever) for stuff about this case". You have to cite specific articles, but you can take your time doing so. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 02:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The person that wrote that, while well meaning, has still not bothered to learn how to edit here. She will end up banned very soon I predictBillyJoelFan 01:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly what is wrong with the formatting of the article ? It has many footnotes. It has very few italics.

A dispute about the JFK conspiracy claims is no reason to remove all changes made by others. You should only edit the disupted material. There is no reason to remove changes to formatting or restore the inapproprate citation discussed above. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 02:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

See above. I can put the LA Times dates and page numbers here by the end of Monday. After you see them, either you take my word for it or you visit one of the Los Angeles City libraries. Don't live near Los Angeles ? Too bad. The Library of Congress in DC has the microfilm but not the database, so you would have to spend a couple hours there. Not including travel time. It's a good thing you don't agree with conspiracy theorists as I have heard them say that the Library of Congress is part of the conspiracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dooyar (talk • contribs)

And I've already said above, great, take your time with the citations, but stop removing all other changes. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 02:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

TV credits & Edits

Does anyone have any info about Karyn Kupcinet appearing in The Red Skelton Show, The U.S. Steel Hour, and The Donna Reed Show? I haven't found anything that says she was on these shows and IMDb says nothing about it.

This would require searching old TV Guides and newspaper listings on microfilm. Can't help you there. What I find relevant to the Wikipedia article is that even if you could document that Karyn appeared on those three TV shows, you probably won't see films or videos of them. I added the section at the end about what is easily available on cable / DVD and what you must watch at The Paley Center for Media.

Obviously, most people aren't going to visit that center or if they do, they will get tempted to watch other stuff, instead. The one in Beverly Hills has funny hours for viewing: noon to five p.m. Wednesday through Sunday. That includes the time the staff needs to get it ready and to correct technical glitches at your viewing station. When I wanted to watch Karyn in Mrs. G. Goes To College, the videocassette screwed up for several minutes, and a Paley Center employee stood next to me fiddling with it. Then it was alright for 15 minutes, but when I wanted to "rewind cue" one of Karyn's lines, it screwed up again. Most people don't want that trouble.

I also made some drastic edits because the intro paragraph was too long and contained information that was already in the article. I also removed the text that a user included which should have been posted on the talk page. Even though my edits were drastic, I attempted to leave all well written and sourced info on the page and re-organized it for a smoother read. Judging from the talk discussions, I understand that some people are incredibly passionate about this subject, but considering all the information and differing views that are questionable, it's nearly impossible to fit it all in and make it cohesive. The article was also filled with POV statements that basically made the whole thing sound like a trashy true crime novel. Pinkadelica 08:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the succinct details about Karyn's visibility on Perry Mason and Andy Griffith Show are hardly trashy. They focus on the TV shows she did that have strong followings so many years later. People talk about them today. Unfortunately, people don't care so much about The U.S. Steel Hour, and it is unlikely that a DVD nostalgia entrepreneur will dig up Karyn's episode and make it available to you. Digging through vaults costs money and requires permission, not to mention restoring it. Listing her Perry Mason and Andy Griffith information pays tribute to her life and work rather than leaving her as just a mysterious corpse.