Talk:United States Army

Regional Commands

The new Africa Command should be added to the box at top right.RIVA02906 16:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Technically, the listed regional commands are broader than the US Army. Central Command, for example, encompasses all four branches of DOD -- it's Army sub-component is Third Army.

Question

Why is there no stats in the intro, like on the USAF page?

There are; they're just different stats. --ScreaminEagle 19:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Where can I find the total enlistment numbers from 2000 to present broken down into per month totals? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Micfri (talk • contribs)

Branches of the Army

There should be a section, or a link to its own page at the very least, concerning the different branches within the US Army.Shawn 03:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

M11 Pistol and CID

The M11 Pistol is, in fact, the standard issue sidearm for CID Special Agents. See http://www.cid.army.mil/agenttraining.htm (2nd picture down, SA firing a M11 in training), http://www.wood.army.mil/MPBULLETIN/pdfs/April%2006/Miklos.pdf (1st page, author references agents qualifying with their "assigned M11 pistols"), http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/toe/19483L000.htm (M11 Pistol on CID unit MTOE), http://www.remtek.com/arms/sig/model/228/228.htm (1st paragraph references Army CID and the Sig P228). Mike f 00:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Signaleer has been repeatedly removing the M11 Pistol from the list of individual weapons, despite the references cited above and multiple reversions by myself and two other editors. In an effort to avoid an "edit war" and resolve the conflicting opinions, I posted the following on his/her talk page, which he/she simply blanked instead of responding. I'll re-post it here:

I noticed you removed the M11 from the list of U.S. Army individual weapons again. Did you see the references I posted on the article's talk page ([[Talk:United_States_Army#M11_Pistol_and_CID])? From your edit summary, I understand you called the CID PAO, who told you that the M11 is not the standard-issue weapon for Special Agents. But have you considered that the person who you spoke with may have been mis-informed or mis-understood your question? Also, a phone call to the PAO isn't easily verifiable as a source, and may constitute WP:NOR. From your name (Signaleer), I think it's a safe assumption that you have some connection (past or present) with the military, and are just trying to ensure the article's accuracy, as am I. So, if not the M11/Sig P228, what do you think is the standard CID sidearm? From my personal experience, every CID Special Agent I've seen or spoken with has always carried a sidearm that looked very much like a M11/Sig P228, or at least was certainly NOT an M9/Beretta 92F. In the interests of accuracy and avoiding an edit war, I think we should resolve this as soon as possible. Thanks, Mike f 16:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

So what authority do you think you have? Do you think that because of your personal experience with special agents, that makes it a standard firearm for all CID agents? Have you even tried to contact CID? This is a public domain, contrary to what you may or may not think. Yes, it is quite simple to contact the PAO, here's the website and POC:

http://www.army.mil/institution/armypublicaffairs/

U.S. Army Public Affairs
Media Relations Division
Office of the Chief of Public Affairs
1500 Army Pentagon
Washington, DC 20310-1500

Phone: 703.692.2000

If you can not reach these PAO, I suggest you go on your AKO account (since supposedly you are in the US Army) and feel free to contact the chain of command of PAO about it. If you can produce a document that says that the M11 is the standard firearm for CID agents on a proper document or dod.mil/army.mil website or an official letter with proper military heading and signatures, then I'll be more than happy to allow you to add the M11 on the site but if not, I will continue to delete that from the wikipedia's United States Army site. My regards --Signaleer 17:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Look dude, I'm not trying to contest what the PAO told you, and I'm not claiming any "authority" from my own personal experience (that would be original research). I have cited four reliable and easily verifiable web sources above, including two from "army.mil" domains. If that's not good enough, I don't know what is. Whether it's "a standard firearm for all CID agents" or not is irrelevant--it's issued to at least some U.S. Army soldiers, and that's enough for inclusion on this page. I'm reverting to re-add the M11. And as a side note, you don't have any authority to "allow" me to add or remove anything from this or any other page. As you pointed out, this is a "public domain" encyclopedia that anyone can edit, if they cite reliable sources. Mike f 18:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Let us also be wary of the three revert rule, which if this keeps up, could resort in banning of the person doing it. So let's take a step back, breathe, and think about the rationale of any further moves before this ends in tears. --ScreaminEagle 22:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I'd appreciate a third-party perspective on this (admittedly minor) issue, either you or anybody else. I'm willing to step back and let a disinterested party or parties help reach some consensus here. Mike f 23:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

And even as I wrote the above, Signaleer reverts to remove the M11 for the 8th time. A little help, please? Mike f 01:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Folks:

1. Please, let's stop with the reverting back-and-forth for the time being. It's not productive, and only aggravates the situation.
2. The dispute seems to be centered around whether the M1911 is the standard issue sidearm versus merely being a sidearm that happens to be issued/used. Looking at the references collected by Mike f, I don't see anything that really supports the first option that well (although the second option seems well-supported), so looking for better sources is probably appropriate here.
3. On a side note: this entire issue could be bypassed if we just take out the bulleted list of weapons from this article and replace it with a summary paragraph with a link to the main list. Then, there would be no need to be exhaustive here, and the M1911 entry in the full list could be given with as much annotation as needed.

Kirill Lokshin 17:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

What I've found in the last few hours is that the M11 is indeed used by CID, MI, and possibly select Army special ops forces. However, proof that it is THE standard firearm issued these groups is not obvious from any of these documents or sources (it's possible that no website states exactly what the standard firearm is for the CID, either, since their website certainly doesn't state as much). On the other hand, the article itself here does not state that the weaponry listed is only the standard issued weaponry of the Army, just weaponry used by the Army, which the M11 obviously is. This could be part of the problem here. Indeed, a paragraph versus a list would solve the problem from both sides of the issue, pointing out that the M11 is used by groups like the CID, et al, but is not necessarily the standard issue firearm for said groups or something along those lines. --ScreaminEagle 17:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I also think a prose paragraph instead of a bulleted list would better explain the issue, and improve the article as well. I've actually been working on a re-write to the "Equipment" section in my sandbox. It's still an incomplete rough draft, but I wouldn't mind a disinterested look from anyone interested. For now, I'll refrain from reverting to restore the M11 on this list until 1) we reach a clear consensus, or 2) I find some more explicit sources. Thanks for the comments. Mike f 19:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you mentioned that, especially since I ran across your sandbox in my research travels. I wasn't sure if you wanted it mentioned just yet since it's your private sandbox and under construction, so I didn't say anything, but what you have there looked pretty good to me and probably what would make the current misunderstanding a little better.

As a side note--and off the record--I contacted CID and spoke with a very helpful PA fellow who said he would research the issue and get back to me. He and I both understand that what he comes up with cannot be used as a source for this issue, but as I told him, it's always nice to be pointed in the right direction to know where to find the reputable published sources we're seeking, especially when we're having difficulty locating them otherwise. --ScreaminEagle 20:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

CID/PA got back to me and said the M11 (SIG P228) is in fact standard issue for CID agents. The fellow I'm in contact with is currently researching published documents to send to me to confirm this. He also directed me to the SIG/Remtek website that states "The P-228 was recently adopted by the U.S. Army as the M-11, or the concealment pistol for undercover or plain clothes operatives for the military." --ScreaminEagle 19:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Here are two refs:

• [1] "Not only did the Soldiers go through the CID qualification table with their assigned M11 pistols..."
• [2] APPRENTICE SPECIAL AGENT COURSE: END OF COURSE QUESTIONNAIRE "109. Maintain an M11 Pistol." "110. Operate an M11 Pistol."

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think there was ever any question that the CID agents trained with the M11; it was, however, debated whether or not the M11 was standard issue for them in the field or if it was just one of the many weapons they were trained with and thus capable of using. The "assigned M11 pistols" is certainly getting at what we need, though, so thanks. --ScreaminEagle 20:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The first reference I had already found & listed at the top of this thread--while it seemed to clearly indicate that the M11 was used by CID, it wasn't completely obvious that it was their standard sidearm (hence the controversy). The second reference (the "End of Course Questionnaire") clears that up, I think: "Maintain & Operate an M11 Pistol" are listed as "critical tasks," and there is no mention of any other weapons on the list. Gadget850, thanks for finding that reference. Mike f 20:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I finished and posted a re-write of the "Equipment" section, which will hopefully lay some of this controversy to rest. I did include the M11 (citing 3 of the 5 references in this thread), but phrased it as "used by" the CID, not necessarily "standard issue to all Special Agents." Mike f 18:42, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

looks good to me. Parsecboy 19:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

"Unsourced" Tag

I'm removing the "Unsourced" tag at the top of the talk page. I'm not sure how long that tag has been there, but that issue seems to be satisfactorily resolved now.Mike f 20:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Debateable WWI contribution

"Millions of US troops were sent to the front and were instrumental in the push that finally broke through the German lines." I think you'll find that the germans broke because of the results of the blockade. They were starving to death due to lack of food from the blockade and also were so short of material that they were forced to dig up lead water pipes to make bullets, and their artillery had barrels so old that they repeatedly undershot the target.

The situation among the German troops was desperate, they were running low on food, so the chief reason for them to attack allied positions was the food stored there. The German artillery had been fired a bit too much by now without replacement and with the arrival of the US fabricats and forces they were outgunned 10:1 by state of the art equipment. On the other hand the German troops had resorted to increased used of more efficient small mortars, etc. relying strongly on their well trained infantry and even launched a final offensive. Another important issue was the air supremacy that until the arrival of US forces hadn't been achieved by either side (although the German Empire had the largest European air force). Like all European soldiers involved in this war(several mutinies among allied troops had been brutally suppressed) they wanted to leave behind this hell of an industrial battlefield. Now millions of fresh American soldiers were preparing themselves to join this carnage and the German military command simply calculated that they had to win before these new guys arrived in sufficient numbers to crush them by sheer numbers. Wandalstouring 17:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Pay grade

In the section of the article where the ranks and their insignia are listed the lieutenants listed as having the same pay grade (OF-1). The box at the bottom of various articles, however, lists the two lieutenants as having two different pay grades (OF-1 for second lieutenants, and OF-2 for first lieutenants). Which is correct? --Chaz 19:27, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

The box doesn't list pay grades, but the NATO officer codes, which are essentially equate the various officer ranks in NATO countries. In the US Army, 2LT and 1LT have different pay grades, of O-1 and O-2 respectively. Parsecboy 20:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Criticism?

Shouldn't there be a criticism section? [3] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lixy (talk • contribs) 20:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

Um, I don't think David Duke is a good source for anything, really. Parsecboy 21:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Uh, me either. Plus, you can find criticism of the US Army on every news website and anti-war blog in the world. WHy chose that one? - BillCJ 23:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Even the US army is not above criticism. It has taken part in a number of operations which have been criticizable, and they can not simply put the responsibility for all of this on the politicians. I think, there should be a criticism section. In the usual Wikipedia NPOV, of course :-) --80.201.72.198 19:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

No one is saying that they are above criticism, but there are plenty of articles regarding alleged and actual atrocities of the Army. IMHO, this is a factual sheet about an entity, not its actions. — BQZip01 — ^talk 16:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

my edit on 22 march 07

I partially reverted the 21st century section because: the word "pretext" implies duplicity, which doesn't apply to Afghanistan, as there was wide support to attack those harboring terrorists responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Also, more than just Army members are dying in Iraq. The Army did not execute Saddam, to include it in the article here implies that they did. For the removal of the last line in that section, I know plenty of soldiers, myself included, who do not believe our sacrifices in Iraq are noble, worthwhile, or anything of the sort. To state arbitrarily that we do is patently false and unresponsible partisanship. Parsecboy 12:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The original edit was done by an anonymous... I simply reverted back to noble because I thought it was a portion of the established article. --D 14:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I just wanted to explain my edits before someone came along and reverted them. Parsecboy 16:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

what does DAO stand for?

well?Mace Windu 16:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Given that the letters "DAO" are not in the article, what the heck are you talking about?? - BillCJ 18:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

My Appologies. Found the term in the article Operation Babylift and i assumed i would get a quick correct answer from the experts here. I understand that DOA is the Department of the army, so perhaps DAO was a typo...Mace Windu 00:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

If you are a christian, have a little grace:)Mace Windu 00:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't meaning to be rude, just very perplexed. I think you are right tho that it is a typo. I'll look at the article, and see if the context bears it out, and correct it. "Heck" is as strong a word as I ever use, and I don't use it that often. I just had know idea what you were talking about, but your point is taken. - BillCJ 01:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, i wasnt offended or anything and i understand your perplexity. Any info regarding the typo is appreciated. if it is a typo, fix it or let me know and i'll fix it. I'm a fellow believer as well.-Mace Windu 01:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

In the Air Force, DAO stands for Director of Air Operations. My guess is that the editor who added that acronym thought it meant Department of Air Operations, which does not exist to my knowledge. --D 09:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Found the answer: DAO = Defence Attache's Office. Found it in Fall of Saigon under Evacuation.Mace Windu 18:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Please correct the rank

Not sure who created the rank, but the picture is done well, but is inaccurate. There should not be an angle to the shoulderboard until it flares to reah the button. Please correct it. — BQZip01 — ^talk 15:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Please Delete Line above Officer Rank Diagram

Right above the officers rank diagram, theres a line that I cant seem to find on the editing page. Im not sure how to delete this, could someone do it?

Thanks for noting that. It was in Template:Ranks and Insignia of NATO Armies/OF/United States. (I removed it from your post so as not to give the vandalism more life.) - BillCJ 00:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Total dead in Iraq

There are 3500 us soldiers + 900 contractors dead. I wonder, would you agree or disagree suicide due to psychological pressure, should that be allowed in the final/total number killed? If you are wounded in battle but die one year later, that is still considered war's casualty.

I don't think so. Legally using indirect actions opens up all types of far fetched ideas. Who's to say that every single death isn't a result of war? Someone goes to war, comes back unharmed but learns his girlfriend has left him and kills himself from the emotional pain. Who is to say she would not have left him if he did not go and who is to say that he would not have killed himself for other reasons?Arnabdas 18:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

criticism

Integrity - Do what's right, legally and morally.

It's funny, because numerous reports from Iraq claim that the US Army has been somewhat lax in following this bit of the code. I'll add it in to here later.

Cam 04:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

SPecific information, proof and sources, please? 69.69.87.183 23:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)Bellahdoll

Um...Abu Ghraib? Not to mention other incidents of soldiers' misconduct. Then there's the Mahmudiyah incident, which is a war crime. There are also others, such as the Ishaqi incident, and the Wedding party massacre. There have also been incidents in Afghanistan, if I'm not mistaken. Not exactly full of integrity, wouldn't you agree? Parsecboy 01:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Those incidents have nothing to do with Army policy, but rather members whom committed alleged and/or proven crimes. Unless if there was a specific OPORDR or certain policy that calls for that, the argument does not hold.Arnabdas 18:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

MBT's

Howmany Main Battle tanks does te US military have in serbive ??? Gon4z 02:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think they have any MBTs in Serbia. - BillCJ 03:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Think he means "in service". Although the answer to that question I do not know. Parsecboy 01:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Duh. - BillCJ 01:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for being a smart ass. That's very constructive. Parsecboy 13:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I think around 4-5000, I saw a around 2 documentrys that state that of like the 8000 Abrams made around 5000 are still in service.(ForeverDEAD 01:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC))

Army Officer Ranks

Just an FYI from a Soldier.

There is no longer a 5-star General (General of the Army) And the officer rank structure is as follows (using your OD-* type grade designators, in the Army we just use O-1, O-2, ect.)

OD-1 2nd Lieutenant (Single Gold Bar) OD-2 1st Lieutenant (Single Silver Bar) OD-3 Captain (Two Silver Bars) OD-4 Major (Gold Leaf) OD-5 Lieutenant Colonel (Silver Leaf) OD-6 Colonel (Eagle) OD-7 Brigadier General (1 Star) OD-8 Major General (2 Stars) OD-9 Lieutenant General (3 Stars) OD-10 General (4 Stars)

My primary reason for posting this is that you have the lieutenant ranks shown as one pay grade which is incorrect. They are two seperate pay grades.

SGT Johnathon Jobson Public Affairs Non-Commissioned Officer 416th Engineer Command Army Reserve

You're right, thanks for pointing that out. That's very strange that someone did that, especially when it's correct on the more indepth article about officer ranks in the US Army. It's been corrected. --ScreaminEagle 18:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought General of the Army is used when war is declared? Arnabdas 18:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

It is. He meant there are no active five-stars and no prospects for one in the future. I think it's not included in the list in the article because it is not a standard rank and is only activated by Congress during wartime, and under very specific circumstances at that. Otherwise, a four-star will never reach a five-star, regardless of his qualifications. --ScreaminEagle 22:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Capitalization

Is there a convention about when to capitalize ranks? I'm sure they should be when used as a proper name, e.g. "He saw General Lee." But otherwise I would abstain. e.g. "He attained the rank of major." But I see no consistency in Wikipedia. Anyone care to shed some light on this?--Appraiser 12:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I would think that when referring to a specific person, like General Lee, it would be capitalized, but otherwise it should be lowercase. We don't always capitalize other titles, such as principal or president. Military rank should follow the same grammar rules. Parsecboy 15:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with what Parsecboy in reference to this topic, especially with the analogy about the principal or president. Although I would note that many times people will capitalize: Soldier, Marine, Sailor, Airman, Coast Guardsman although it is still grammatically correct to spell it out lowercase: soldier, marine, sailor, airman, coast guardsman. -Signaleer 13:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it just depends on the context in which the words are being used. This isn't the Army Times, so "soldier" shouldn't always be capitalized. "Marines" should, if it's referring specifically to the U.S. Marines, but not in general usage, for example "the British landed marines at Sword Beach". Parsecboy 15:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I would have to disagree, I've seen it used both refering directly to the subject matter and in general, regardless of what context it is. -Signaleer 04:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that the bit about capitalizing soldier, sailor, airman, marine, etc. was pushed heavily by Gen. Abizaid. He claimed that capitalizing those nouns in particular afforded our troops that much more respect. Personally, I think such a reason is ridiculous, as people will or will not respect our troops regardless of whether their job title is capitalized or not. Given the silly reasoning produced for the change, I don't believe they should be capitalized. --ScreaminEagle 20:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

That, and Wikipedia is not a DOD publication, so we don't have to adhere to their non-standard grammar rules. Parsecboy 20:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Backwards stars and stripes on U.S military uniforms

this ithis has been bugging me. The U.S army and marines have the american flag on their sleeves, however the flag is backwards. ie. the stars are at the top right corner, instead of the top left. WHY? Willy turner 18:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe this has been addressed before, but the reason is that the flag appears to be moving forward (i.e., advancing, not retreating) when placed on the right sleeve "backwards". Parsecboy 18:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

List of famous Soldiers

I'm trying to get a list together of famous soldiers. Someone help me out as there is no list on wikipedia for famous soldiers yet.

Bpingon 17:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Check the Wikipedia category, "United States Army soldiers". Equazcion 07:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• Here's a link, which I couldn't get to work originally: Category:United States Army soldiers. Equazcion 08:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

New article: United States Army Basic Training

Please contribute if you can to the new article, United States Army Basic Training. It has just been split off from Recruit training and needs a lot of work. Thanks. Equazcion 08:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Link to this added in the intro template. Publicus 20:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Rank Structure templates need standardization

Can whoever fixed the Officer Ranks template do the same for the Warrant Officer and Enlisted templates? The Warrant Officer template still has the silly stylized shoulder boards for background (the plain green rectangle is better, and actually NO background would be best), and both WO and Enlisted templates should match the Officer format: US DoD Pay Grade at the top, followed by Insignia, Title, Abbreviation, and NATO code LAST.

Also, the images for 2LT, 1LT, and CPT should be rotated 90 degrees in order to match the format of the MAJ through GEN images ("upright" instead of "lying on their sides"). Thanks, Mike f 23:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I "fixed" the officer ranks by deleting the screwy version someone else had put in there and replacing it with the set from the main article on US officer ranks. Otherwise, I don't have the resources to fix the ones laying down or the other two. This is something I would bring up directly with the MilHistWP and see if anyone there is more capable than I. --ScreaminEagle 01:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, it's done. Took a little trial and error, but I think the rank tables look better now. Now, to re-format the paragraphs that precede each table ... Mike f 05:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Info box needs to be corrected

In the info box, the "Regular Army" is not properly linked to the United States Regular Army page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_Army_%28United_States%29 This needs to be corrected. -TabooTikiGod 18:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Bermuda square

When did the Army go from square to triangluar divisions? Why? Trekphiler 22:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to having four Brigade Combat Teams? That's happened gradually over the past couple of years; part of the "modularity transformation" that's supposed to make the Army more deployable. Like how the Corps have divested their divisions, who now fall directly under Forscom. Parsecboy 22:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not. This is c1920, a shift (IIRC) from 4 rgt to 3. I came across a ref in a paper encyclopedia once & I'd never heard of it. Trekphiler 18:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The recommendation came right after the first world war, but the actual reorganization was done during about 1940-42. IIRC some National Guard divisions were still 'square' when nationalized for WW2, but were made triangular quickly. The whole process had to be done by 1943 becasue no new Infantry Divisions were raised after that. DMorpheus 16:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Terrorist Organization

Is it worth including in this article that the US Army was recently designated as a "terrorist organization" by the Govt of Iran? Iran gov't backs parliament's 'terrorist' label for US army, CIA Bstone 14:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not. It's barely notable, and it's not relevant to this article. Make a Perceptions of the United States Army article, and stick it there, if you like. Parsecboy 12:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The information that the US declared the IRGC is included in the IRGC page and this information you deleted that was here is included in the CIA page so why can't it be included here? You say it is an opinion of the Iranian parlement but the IRGC being a terrorist organisation is an opinion of the US parlement so why shouldn't it be included here? An other reason of that argument not being good is that it doesn't say the US army is a terrorist organisation but it says Iran recognizes it as a terrorist organisation. So I'll be re-adding it. The Honorable Kermanshahi 15:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not relevant in either of those places either. Wikipedia is a place for facts, not for governments to label each other as terrorists. Also, if we include Iran's opinion of the US Army, we have to include every other opinion of it, none of which are notable. Like I said above, create a Perceptions of the United States Army and go crazy. But it's not relevant or notable here. Parsecboy 20:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we both agree that neither the IRGC or the U.S. Army are terrorist organisations but it is relevant to add and no you don't need to add all Irans opinions about the US army or all the US's opinions about Iran but this is an official law and that is different than an opinion. This also means if Iran ever gets their hands on US soldiers they will be classified as terrorists and not as POWs and so trialed for terrorism and if found guilty of being U.S. soldiers they will be death sentenced just like real terrorists of the Mujahedin or Jundullah. The Honorable Kermanshahi 15:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's relevant at all. The law the Iranians passed (and possibly the American one as well, but I haven't looked at it yet) was only a non-binding resolution. It's not a binding law that mandates anything other than "From now on, we're going to call you terrorists". Nothing more. This whole issue is just like two little kids calling names on the playground. It's also about as significant, and should be treated as such. Parsecboy 16:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Seeking clarification on use of "Regiment" in naming of regiments

For disclosure, I have been named in a dispute that has been accepted for mediation recently. It is my understanding that mediation proceeds best when parties seek reasonable support for their position in order to reach an acceptable compromise, and I am hoping to avoid having the matter classified as "stale" due to lack of progress toward resolution.

I notice that several regiments mentioned in this article are named with the word "Regiment" at the end of the names in the section Combat maneuver organizations. AR 220-1 Unit Status Reporting does follow this process of naming units with an ordinal number (First, Second, Third...), followed by a branch or type (Cavalry, Infantry...), and ended with the level of organization (Division, Battalion...), and refers the reader to AR 220-5 Designation, Classification, and Change in Status of Units, which states under that AR's paragraph 2-3, subparagraph (3): "The word 'regiment' is understood and is not included in a unit's official designation."

It appears the tradition and history of all regiments under CARS to name themselves to non-military institutions to which they do not report (such as Wikipedia) in the standard number, type, and level format used for any other level of command for the sake of consistency with AR 220-1, especially when there is a question of ambiguity in naming by levels of organization (as in this Wikipedia article's listing of various combat maneuver organizations), so as an example for illustration purposes only, the full name of the 1st Rock-filled Snowballer is properly rendered as either First Rock-filled Snowballer Regiment or 1st Rock-filled Snowballer Regiment. I believe this is the standard command interpretation of AR 600-82 with respect to reporting a regiment's full name to non-military publications, in compliance with the plain language of that Army Regulation which states in part, located in paragraph 5-5: "It is not the intent of HQDA to change the tactical organization of the brigades, battalions, squadrons, or armored cavalry and ranger regiments. Regiments (with the exception of armored cavalry and ranger) are nontactical organizations intended to perpetuate the history and traditions of regiments for soldiers." In any case, the listing of regiments in the CARS article appears unambiguous in leaving out the word "Regiment" after each unit listed since each list in that article is a list of regiments, containing units of no other level of organization that might cause confusion to soldiers or even civilians.

Is the above reasoning a reasonable summary of your use of "Regiment" in the naming of regiments in this article, which as part of a non-military web site is not in any unit's chain of command for official reporting purposes, or are there other reasons attributable to published, verifiable sources for the regimental naming practices in this article? Hotfeba 03:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you give some examples from this article? I could only find 2CR, 3ACR, 11ACR, and 160SOAR, but these are all their offical names, not like, for example, 2nd of the 13th Inf. Regt. (my old basic training unit, the first example I could think of), where the regiment is ceremonial. If you provide the instances of usage in question, I (and other editors as well) can reply more specifically. Thanks. Parsecboy 12:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The regiments you just cited are sufficient to illustrate. Under paragraph 2-3 of AR 220-5, all unit names formally originate from the office of the Chief of Military History when a unit is first "constituted" before being activated under that name or re-activated under another name by re-flagging with different colors; even the non-tactical ceremonial ones are "official" under the Combat Arms Regimental System (CARS) and are listed by the military history center (CMH) at HQDA. Every active regular component (RC) infantry battalion is associated with a CARS infantry regiment (the same can be said for armor, artillery, and other combat arms battalion-sized units for their regimental affiliations) in accordance to the AR 600-82 quote from paragraph 5-5 above.

• I served with the Old Guard in DC, which is the first battalion of the 3rd United States Infantry Regiment (or the recruiting brochure I still have from the 1970s and the current website at www.army.mil are both in error, and not just because "3rd" is often officially rendered as "3d"!) Even the special designation of "Old Guard" is official, according to the CMH website at www.army.mil, and it just appears highly illogical in a most un-military way to have an official nickname of a unit that is not official itself.

• Your assignment to the 2nd of the 13th Infantry Regiment was official, even if the 13th was non-tactical or merely ceremonial, because every morning, your training unit's adjutant was responsible for transmitting the commander's official report of that unit's status up the chain of command, and at some point during your weeks of training, you did get paid by the United States Army, even if was a cash disbursement after saluting the paymaster.

• A rather famous one is the 509th Infantry Regiment, which has had at least one airborne battalion assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division; if I dared to argue that the 509th was merely an "unofficial" name in any bar anywhere near Ft. Bragg or Ft. Richardson, this disabled veteran would rightly expect to have his front teeth kindly handed to him at the door after picking himself off the floor.

As far as I can tell, the only "unofficial" parts of any unit are any honorary or distinguished members of the unit who do not actively serve with the unit, and even they are covered by some sort of AR. There does not appear to be any official US Army publication which defines the non-existence of a regimental headquarters as rendering that unit as not official; the plain text of AR 220-5 states that a unit having no assigned personnel or equipment is still officially on the active rolls until it is de-activated, and even on de-activation, it is still officially a constituted unit. Hotfeba 19:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)