Talk:Alcoholics Anonymous

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Papers

For your reference, Vaillant excerpts here (PDF 0.7 MB) — DavidMack (talk) 18:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I put 20 good quality pdf papers on AA into a zip file available here (5 MB, R click to download). Geocities only allows one download per hour, if someone could post this on a more accessible site. It's all copyright material, so I'll take it down on Jan 24 or so. — DavidMack (talk) 21:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Loaded language all throughout article

This article uses the AA-specific redefinition of "sobriety" all throughout, wherever it refers to long-term abstinence. This article also has several NPOV issues, especially in the second paragraph of "cult-like behavior," which reads more like a (non-cited) defense of AA than an examination of this particular controversy.

Can we please work to fix this? - Scipiocoon 12:37am 11 Jan 2008 (CST)

What you mean, "we", Scipiocoon? Try contributing yourself. PhGustaf (talk) 02:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The cult section rebuttal to criticism is sourced as is most of the article, what doesn't sound factual? Do you have an example of the sobriety issue? -Bikinibomb (talk) 08:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sourced it may be, but that does not mean that it is un biased. Other criticism sections in better articles than this one do not include the response to the criticisms. Step13thirteen (talk) 13:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True, but those criticism sections are adressing somthing that has already been referenced in the article. The cult section offers new information that dosn't appear in the article...and the critisism itself is highly contriversial since it is done based on scientific studies, and there are other studies out there that come up with different results. hell I have a peer reviewed article that adresses this very topic and the result is "there is no evidance to back up the claim that AA is a cult" but I decided not to add that because the cult section adresses both sides well and it would have just cluttered up the article. Coffeepusher (talk) 19:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the cult section:

The rhetoric and emotional language of AA leads some journalists and social scientists to fear AA is a religion or cult: that the term "sobriety" has taken on a religious flavor and AA members over-rely on dogmatic slogans and are slaves to the group;[73] that AA's need for submission to a higher power leaves potential for abuse, and submission can become the basis for cult-like cohesion.[74] Individual alcoholics attending incompatible AA groups or allying themselves with unfortunate sponsors sometimes tell horror stories about AA. Common to cults, AA members are not encouraged to take a dispassionate or scientific view of their organization, and as with any partisan group, members can be extremely and erroneously opinionated, convinced for example, that AA is the only way to recover from alcoholism.[75]

AA is unlike cults in that its program is based on suggestion only, religious conviction does not prevent AA membership since it has no doctrine of any one specific type of God or obedience to charismatic leaders, and it operates on the principle of leadership rotation. Vaillant argues that AA's encouragement of dependence is healthy in the way that dependence on exercise is healthy,[47][76] and it does not try to isolate its members from society and take over their lives by creating an unusual and total dependence on the organization for basic human needs like friends, food, and shelter, as is typical with other cult practices.[77]

The Roman stuff is the criticism. The italicized stuff is response to the criticism. It's POV, and it's synthesis. It's not the encyclopedia's job to respond to the criticism. PhGustaf (talk) 16:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that it is synthesis. the responce isn't actually a responce, but rather the other side of the cult argument cited by peer reviewed sources. to leave it out would say that the only sources that we can put in the Cult section are ones who support the claim and no other viewpoints no matter how repritable. Coffeepusher (talk) 17:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added the underlined bit above. — DavidMack (talk) 18:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other criticism sections in better articles than this one do not include the response to the criticisms. Articles are done all different ways, sometimes criticism comes after each point, not just in one section. Sometimes there is a rebuttal, sometimes not. All I've ever seen from the Big Book and meetings is "hey we're here to help, if you don't want it, go experiment, hats off if you can drink successfully." Plus you don't have to give up your money or first-born etc. to belong there. So in those ways it's not like a cult, and it's good to note that for NPOV.

Although I personally think it is like a cult just in the way that the steps are derived from the New Testament through Oxford but applied to any god you want. Now that's something a source should probably be found for and mentioned here if someone really wants to make a strong case for it, since the criticisms listed now are pretty lame. But again there can be a rebuttal that it's not humane, or whatever, to exclude non-Christians from a solution for their drinking. So it works both ways. -Bikinibomb (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not arguing whether it's a cult. (I think the question is meaningless.) I'm just pointing out that the section is one quarter criticism and three quarters rebuttal, apology, and preaching. It's as if the point is brought up solely to be brought down. PhGustaf (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

what other sources are you proposing to introduce? Coffeepusher (talk) 00:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is it's too long already. I'd try something like:

The rhetoric and emotional language of AA leads some journalists and social scientists to fear AA is a religion or cult: that the term "sobriety" has taken on a religious flavor and AA members over-rely on dogmatic slogans and are slaves to the group;[73] that AA's need for submission to a higher power leaves potential for abuse, and submission can become the basis for cult-like cohesion.[74]

Vaillant argues that AA's encouragement of dependence is healthy in the way that dependence on exercise is healthy,[47][76] and it does not try to isolate its members from society and take over their lives by creating an unusual and total dependence on the organization for basic human needs like friends, food, and shelter, as is typical with other cult practices.[77]

We have a challenge and a reputable refutation, and the length of the section becomes more proportional to the importance of the issue. PhGustaf (talk) 02:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That looks fine, change it to that. I mean let's be honest, any exclusive club is inherently cultish, from AA to knitting circles. When I began attending AA there was only one group in a small town and its members were always up in your business. Did it hurt me? Not really though I felt smothered at times. Whereas in larger cities with many groups it's not always like that. So yes, AA can be cultish just like any other club, depending. Thus whatever criticism is ok, as long as there is a rebuttal to say there is potential for cultishness, but it's not always the case. -Bikinibomb (talk) 10:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, done. There's more possibly loaded language under "Thirteenth-Stepping:

Mutual support and abuse have both been observed in AA groups.[47] AA undertakes no external restriction, screening, or vetting of its members, and the long-form version of Tradition Three states that any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group.[67]

"Thirteenth-stepping" is a euphemistic term describing the practice of targeting new and vulnerable AA members for dates or sex. Fifty-five female AA members, ...

The first sentence is trivially obvious; "mutual support and abuse" can both be observed in kindergarten, in convents, and anywhere in between. The second is more appropriate for the "Organization" section, which discusses AA policies. Its placement here seems intended to emphasize that thirteenth-stepping is contrary to AA policy. This is a given in a criticism section, and is POV here. What say you all? PhGustaf (talk) 23:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah remove the first, move/merge the second. -Bikinibomb (talk) 00:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence is not trivially obvious; it is a summary of the available research and it reminds both sides of the debate that there is no clear cut "AA is good" or "AA is bad". The second sentence deals with the next question a reader might ask: Does AA, the organization, screen members? The answer is no, for better or worse, each group is an independent community. Both are important concepts for the discussion of whether AA is a cult and who has responsibility for wrong-doings. — DavidMack (talk) 15:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the responsibility of the article to suggest whether AA is good or bad. The first sentence is, admittedly, documented, but it's out of place here. The second is about the structure of AA, and fits better in "Organization". The placement of this paragraph here is just saying, "Well, we have to put this complaint here to be fair, but it's not important, really." PhGustaf (talk) 16:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New AA report on recovery outcome rates

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates - Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation. I recommend paying attention. -- Craigtalbert (talk) 05:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So according to Submarine Bill, successes for one year can be up to 90%, if you go to at least one meeting a week in a group that sticks to traditional AA principles. -Bikinibomb (talk) 05:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have no doubt whatever that the 5% number is deceptively low -- I've only glanced at the paper, so I won't comment. Do note that it's self-published by persons of unknown qualifications who have a point to make. It says on the first page that it's not an AA publication. PhGustaf (talk) 05:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That article is clearly a highly biased opinion piece on a website that has a point to make. Let's hope nobody suggests that we use it as a reference for anything here.66.120.181.218 Desoto10 (talk) 04:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)(talk) 07:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eh. The whole Research section is dumb anyway because they are expecting honest poll results from a group of people who admit to being the biggest liars on earth when they are actively drinking. You'd have to stay glued to them 24 hours a day to know for sure. The best anyone can say in all this is that some people quit for a while, some don't, beyond that is unknown and pure guesswork. -Bikinibomb (talk) 08:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but it's data. -- Craigtalbert (talk) 05:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, they probably have a point to make about the flaws of relying on 1 triannual survey to claim a 5% success rate. It's hardly a scientifically valid study. But it's something of a straw man, as there are many other more valid studies. Their claims of a 75% success rate are ridiculous, and rely on cherry picking - they openly state that you should disregard members who only attend for a few meetings. Ridiculous. Step13thirteen (talk) 13:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well if you are going to do a study that says the AA program works or not, you have to study people that do everything that is suggested as being the actual program: go to meetings regularly, work steps with a sponsor, pray and do an inventory every day, admit right away when you are wrong, stay away from places where people drink, stay out of meetings where people just goof off and go to get laid, etc. I haven't seen a study yet that says subjects do all those things, so studies are already flawed since you don't know if they are really studying the real AA program as it is suggested. It's like studies to see if a drug works to fight cancer or something, and not really knowing or saying if subjects took the drug or not. -Bikinibomb (talk) 00:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nace writes, "Outcome is more favorable for those who attend more than one meeting per week and for those who have a sponsor, sponsor others, lead meetings, and work Steps Six through Twelve after completing a treatment program." (p 592 in Nace, Edgar P. "Alcoholics Anonymous" in Substance abuse: a comprehensive textbook. Ed. Joyce H. Lowinson et al. 4th ed. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2005, p 587 - 599.) —DavidMack (talk) 01:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bikinibomb, That is a common misconception about rating AA's success. I don't think that anyone would argue that those alcoholics that go to meetings everyday, engage in service, get a sponsor, do the steps all of the time and have a spiritual awakening as a result do not have a favorable outcome. The trouble is that so very few alcoholics actually do this. Therefore, the program does not have a very high success rate. The problem for AA is not the program itself, it is massive attrition from the program. Disulfiram (Antabuse) works the same way. If you force someone to take Antabuse, they will not drink (most of the reports of drinking "through" antabuse are anectdotal). However, most people stop taking the stuff and start drinking again. So, on the one hand, disulfiram "works", but in the grand scheme of helping alcoholics, it does not. My last comment is that AA's attitude towards research is one of the fundemental reasons that alcoholism research is such a mess. You would think that AA would want to know which treatments work and which do not. Desoto10 (talk) 04:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, like if I'm browsing Classmates and see a guy I used to tease in gradeschool, I'm supposed to make amends to him. Most AAs won't do things like that, and for them it's like cutting dosage on meds, or not taking them at all, even though there's nothing wrong with the "medicine" itself. So it's almost impossible to say whether it's the program, or people working it, that are or aren't successful unless every detail like that is examined. -Bikinibomb (talk) 08:29, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... I post a link to non-peer-reviewed paper regarding AA's effectiveness with a favorable spin, and all of the sudden people start making all of the same arguments I have have made for months against non-peer-reviewed material with a negative spin on AA. Funny how that works. -- Craigtalbert (talk) 05:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

11th Tradition Flouted

Given the 11th tradition of attraction rather than promotion, AA has been taking out 30 sec ads on Canadian Broadcasting, Advertising itself and its webpage. I think it should be included in the article. --MisterAlbert (talk) 21:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)MisterAlbert[reply]

It doesn't sound particularly important to me, except in the sense of its being weird. A catalog of routine breaches of Tradition would be far too long for this article. PhGustaf (talk) 21:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]