Talk:Alcoholics Anonymous

Connection between Bill Wilson and LSD?

I noticed that there is no mention of Bill Wilson's experimentation with LSD on the main Alcoholics Anonymous page. This seems like a significant omission, given that Wilson, the co-founder of AA, explored the potential of LSD in the 1950s as a means to achieve the kind of spiritual awakening that he believed was crucial to recovery. There are credible sources discussing this, such as William James' influence on Wilson's thinking and his sessions under the guidance of medical professionals like Dr. Sidney Cohen and Gerald Heard.

While I understand the need for neutrality and relevance, this aspect of Wilson's later life seems historically and philosophically important to understanding his full perspective on addiction, spirituality, and recovery. Shouldn’t there be at least a brief mention of this in the main article, perhaps with a link to a more detailed discussion or a separate section?

Would appreciate thoughts from other editors before proposing any changes.

Effectiveness research: AA vs. AA/TSF

I made several edits to the intro of the Effectiveness section (diff). My intention is to explain the important difference between AA/TSF and AA itself. I welcome edits to improve clarity, conciseness, etc. Also, I didn't have time to make similar edits in the remainder of the section. If you can do so, that would be great!

We should avoid any implication that research on AA/TSF proves that AA itself is as effective as formal treatment interventions. At the same time, we should avoid implying anything like, "there is no evidence that AA itself is effective", which would be a ridiculous thing to imply (but some people try to do it). I tried to explain the distinction with this sentence:

Developers of this treatment intervention argue that since participation in AA constitutes the primary therapeutic ingredient, they can reasonably infer that AA itself is effective, just as cognitive-behavioral therapists argue that cognitive and behavioral therapy techniques (e.g., challenging negative thoughts or avoiding an environment that functions as a conditioned stimulus for alcohol use) are vital therapeutic ingredients in their treatment model, i.e., they are effective interventions by themselves [with an endnote: "AA/TSF proponents stress research does not prove that AA itself, without the other AA/TSF treatment elements, is just as effective as formal treatment interventions"].

Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 01:58, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

The issue, of course, is that we can’t effectively do a randomized placebo trial with Alcoholics Anonymous itself, but we can reasonably infer that AA itself helps keep alcoholics sober because randomized subjects who end up, because of the treatment they get, going to AA more, do in fact have better outcomes. Cochrane 2020 shows this, as does Humphreys 2014. SkylabField (talk) 14:56, 10 August 2025 (UTC)

How much weight can we give the Toronto secular meeting controversy?

Here is the earlier wording for the Toronto secular meeting controversy which was fully resolved back in 2017:

Reception to secular 12 step meetings from within AA has been mixed. In 2011, secular meetings in Toronto, where the 12 steps were altered to remove references to God and prayer, were delisted from the Toronto AA online and print directories, effectively removing them from the network of meetings. They appealed this decision, but were rejected, leading to a complaint to the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario. The Toronto co-ordinating body, the Greater Toronto Area Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous, argued both that as a special interest group they have the right to restrict its membership, and that a belief in God is a requirement for groups in Toronto. Mediation between the two groups resulted in the delisted groups being listed again, however the secular groups would be required to not alter the 12 steps.

Considering this was 10 or so meetings and one intergroup, and was resolved eight years ago, I shortened it in light of WP:UNDUE:

In 2011, secular meetings in Toronto, where the 12 steps were altered to remove references to God and prayer, were delisted from the Toronto AA directories. This lead to a complaint to the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario. Mediation resulted in the delisted groups being listed again in 2017.

Point being this was from a while ago and has long since been resolved, and doesn’t need a long paragraph. SkylabField (talk) 04:04, 10 August 2025 (UTC)

Wording of effectiveness for AA

A couple of users ago, we had a heated discussion, including borderline WP:Harassment violations, about the wording of effectiveness in AA. As a result of that editor, we ended up with some awkward self-contradictory wording about AA’s effectiveness:

Research comparing AA/TSF to other treatment approaches shows that AA/TSF exhibits success rates equivalent to other established treatment protocols (e.g., motivational enhancement therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy), and demonstrates superior outcomes when measuring continuous abstinence and healthcare costs.

This is a little off, so I fixed the wording:

Research comparing AA/TSF to other treatment approaches shows that AA/TSF demonstrates slightly superior outcomes when measuring continuous abstinence and greatly reduced healthcare costs.

SkylabField (talk) 15:06, 10 August 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for improving that sentence. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 23:42, 10 August 2025 (UTC)