Talk:Flintlock

Would this be the technology used by French and English soldiers at Fort Louisbourg and Fort Beausejour in the 1750s during the North American loctaion of the Seven Years War?--Sonjaaa 17:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Certainly. As indicated in the article, the previous technology was obsoleted shortly after 1630, and newer technology did not start to come into play until well after 1800. Your dates lie nearly at the middle of the flintlock period. Robert A.West (Talk) 23:14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

we have a problem =

Actually the smoothbore musket was in widespread use during the American Civil war. Neither side of the conflict had anything like enough weapons for the mass armies of staggering size fielded by the protagonist. This state of affairs went on through the 1st 2 years of the war. It would be fair to say that up to 1/3 of the troops in the field were so equipped throught the 1st year of the war. Both sides struggled mightly to get Springfield/Enfield percussion rifles into the troops hands. I rather doubt that by the 3rd year of the war there were field formations using muskets anymore but until then... Tirronan 15:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

"See also": spot the odd men out...

The subsection 'See also...' includes the following list:

• Wheellock
• Caplock
• Snaplock
• Snaphance
• Miquelet
• Musketoon
• Brown Bess
• Charleville musket

Can you spot the odd men out? For me, the first five of these are particular locks or firing mechanisms, whilst the last three have nothing to do with the firing mechanism but are particular types of firearms.

As such, I don't think they have any place in this list, or this article. Shouldn't See also... only refer to other lock mechanisms? (the article on Matchlock could be added to the list...)

Would anyone object if I removed the last three in the list? They could be added either to Firearms or to Antique guns - or to both these articles, which are far more appropriate.

Nick Michael 10:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I wish you hadn't removed them altogether, but rather made a section linking to specific firearms using the flintlock, as there is a section in the article talking about how the British Army loaded their weapons with paper packets (cartridges), but there's no citation for this. I'm doing a project involving pre-1860 weaponry and tactics and I found it rather annoying that I had to search around for confirmation of this (whether or not British soldiers were in fact issued paper packets with the necessary amount of gunpowder to prime and fire the weapon, as well as a musket ball).

User: Sean K. 11:39AM, 24 December 2007 (CST)

Go ahead and do it - that's what Wikipedia is all about! Nick Michael (talk) 21:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Not a real moan but.... I find it a bit odd the way the first paragraph is written. what we have is a short definition of flintlock and followed by what repalced the flintlock followed by the use of the flintlock in one conflict in one country at the end of its era of use. Would it make more sense to describe the flintlock- describe its origins and development from early firearms, developments within its era (rifling etc) and then the technologies that replaced it. (I think that the reference should be to metal catridges rather than just cartridges as paper catridges were used for many years with both flintlocks and muskets.)

Once these basics have been covered then the uses could be described- civilian and military and then if there is space look at specific theatres and occurances of use. Keith. 21-2-2008 14:34 zulu

So why don't you go ahead and write it Keith? That's what Wikipedia is all about. Although I have never heard of metal cartridges being used in the flintlock era... Nick Michael (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Cheers Nick, I am very new to this and I thought that the idea was to generate a consensus before editing, It is the confusion about metal cartridges and paper cartridges that I referred to, as it reads at the moment it sounds as if cartridges replaced the flintlock system, my point is that metal cartridges replaced the flintlock eventually while paper cartridges were contemporary. K 22-2-2008 -11:34 Zulu

Some thoughts on "Hammer" and "Frizzen"

An editor deleted the word "frizzen" and replaced it with "hammer", saying this was the "more historically accurate term". Since "frizzen" is the more popular term today, I restored it so both words are used. But if hammer is "more historically accurate", "frizzen" has an impeccable pedigree as well. OED cites (1629): He is euer readie to strik fyre with his frezell and his flint. Later on, in 1817, it cites: Putting down the frizzel, and making it spring up again with a loud snap. A definition does not appear until as late as 1892: Frizzle, in flint and steel guns the piece of iron acted on by the flint to produce the explosion.

When and how the final "L" changed to "N" is not clear to me. From the 1629 citation above, it seems that frezell was a word used for the "steel" used in fire-making (incidentally adopted by Philip the Good of Burgundy as his emblem), and not necessarily associated with firearms. I must say that "hammer", even if "historically accurate", doesn't make much sense to me, and is hardly helpful in describing the action of the flintlock. Nick Michael 07:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I have been shooting flintlock muzzleloaders since I was five years old, and I have never in my life heard anyone even float the idea tenatively that the frizzen is called a "hammer" or that the hammer is called the "cock". Cocking describes what one does to a hammer; this use is universal across history and across all firearms--- the only alternative use for 'cock' as a piece of equipment is a type of valve. Further, the frizzen has always been so named; to call it a hammer would undoubtedly cause confusion at any time in history, as the frizzen has no hammer-like action. Even when one puts the frizzen down over the pan, one does not let it snap down with a hammerlike motion--- this would be a good way to break the frizzen, at best, and fair likely to impact the priming powder negatively.

The editor who used this "hammer is more historically accurate" reasoning should justify it; in my vast experience in this particular field, this is a one-off opinion. I would feel comfortable calling it entirely incorrect. Frizzen is the word in use at the time of the F&I War, and at all times subsequent.

Perhaps this usage is British, some of the other grammatical oddities seem to point to that... But in convential usage this passage is so poorly written as to be unintelligible. In all firearms, "Hammer" is the thing released under spring pressure that makes the weapon fire... even if early firearms called the part receiving the blow the "hammer" (and as I said, I have never seen even one other instance of it), all firearms from then on, all percussion firearms, and modern cartridge firearms use "hammer" exclusively to be what is here called the "cock"; while the correct use of "cock" is exclusively as a verb, or to describe a state (like "cocked"). To recast these terms in the way the editor seems to favor would require shifting the meanings of countless other terms--- can he even begin to justify his odd phrasing? If no one objects, I will edit this article into sensibility myself; I will wait a day or two for objections.

No objection from me, to be sure.Nick Michael (talk) 20:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I saw that "hammer" was still being used to describe the "frizzen" which was in reality also referred to as the "anvil" before becoming the frizzen, the cock is the hammer. I changed the article to reflect this. See "Small Arms" by Wilkinson

David Fortini 11:49 12 Feb 08 (EST)

David, having never heard the term 'anvil' used for what most people call a 'frizzen', I looked hard, and can only find the term 'anvil' used in percussion firearms, where it seems to designate what is usually called the 'nipple', or, in more modern arms, ' That part of the cartridge primer which is a solid surface, against which the firing pin strikes to set off the priming powder.'[1]. As such, I don't think the term should be used in the Flintlock article - what's your opinion? Nick Michael (talk) 21:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Origin of "Lock and Load"

I had added the Wiktionary term for lock and load to the article, under English language usage involving the flintlock, but see it was removed, under the claim this terminology "referred to later firearms". This is not true. Lock and load is precisely the sequencing used for loading a flintlock. The flintlock is first placed at the half-cock (i.e., at the locked) position, and is then loaded, with two possible scenarios from that point: (1) the British Army method, using paper cartridges, involved first tearing the paper of the cartridge, charging the flash pan with a small bit of powder, then covering the pan, and then pouring the remainder of the powder down the barrel, starting the ball, and using the ramrod to seat the paper cartridged ball securely (thereby preventing a short start that could explode the barrel), or (2) for non-volley firing when achieving maximum accuracy, loading the muzzleloader through measuring a fixed measure of powder, pouring it down the barrel, cutting a patch, lubing the patch (spit), and running the patched ball down the muzzle, and then charging the pan with powder. Lock and Load is precisely the sequence used for loading a flintlock; it doesn't even make sense despite being used for many later firearms, which are not locked (put on safety) until the loading is complete. It seems to me that we should put "Lock and Load" back into the article. Yaf 21:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for these thoughts Yaf. I have no doubt (being a flintlock - and wheellock - shooter myself) that 'lock and load' describes the sequences of arming a flintlock firearm. However I think the issue is whether the expression derives from the flintlock era (pre 1820 say) and more importantly, whether it was actually used in connection with the preparation of firearms for shooting. The article Lock and load is not at all clear on this point. It supplies references for the expression originating in modern times, but none for earlier origins, only some 'suggestions'. IMHO the phrase should not be included until it can be shown (with a reference) to have originated from flintlock terms and the flintlock era. Some point out that the first use of the expression dates from no earlier than 1941. Even earlier similar phrases date from no more than fifty years previously: There is even an instance of this usage going back the Spanish-American War; although it’s not certain if this was a phrase current at the time or just a coincidental use of the words. From the Annual Reports of the War Department, 1900, a dispatch from the Philippines, 15 June 1899: The line was under strong long-range fire and the order was given to load and lock the pieces; investigation proved that the white objects seen were the marines returning to their ship. The term lock in this phrase is a different use of the word than in references to the firing mechanism of a weapon, as in flintlock.[2]

If you insist on including the phrase in this article, I think at least that you should add a warning that there are no documented sources showing that the phrase refers to flintlock preparation or even that it dates from the 'flintlock era'. But since this would probably be very clumsy, I would have thought it better to leave it out altogether. It does seem unlikely that we shall find a reference to authenticate the expression. Nick Michael 09:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The earliest reference I can find is a sporting magazine from 1821, but there the complete expression is "brush the dirt away from the lock, and load ...".[3] A more recent usage refers specifically to one line in the 1949 movie "Sands of Iwo Jima" spoken by John Wayne, from which usage the phrase "Lock and Load" became iconic after the movie was released. Looks like the modern use of the expression only dates from the WW II era, but there is some validity back to the flintlock era, but this earlier validity is only incidentally valid, per the cited quote. So, short of finding a usage that shortens the 1821 phrase to the modern shorter version, prior to, say, 1830-1840, I favor leaving out the "Lock and Load" expression from this article. Thanks! I learned something new! (I never was much of a John Wayne fan, so I hadn't seen or heard this line in this movie :-) Yaf 18:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)