Talk:Black and Tans

NPOV?

Is it me or is this article not NPOV?

Easily said, but now you must reason. Djegan 00:54, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree, though their actions are no doubt atrocious, the article reeks a little too much of a rant based on too much hearsay and too few factual resources. Some elaboration and citations of claims would leave this article much improved. opelwerk 20:41, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, its you. I can assure you it is quite restrained compared to what I would have written about that lot.

An irrelevant statement considering this is an encyclopaedia, not a soapbox. -- Necrothesp 20:14, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Difficult article

This is always going to be a difficult article to get right as the Black and Tan's actions no doubt varied from place to place and only the larger atrocities were recorded. I've heard alot of similar first hand accounts over the years of their actions in my local area which I am fairly sure are accurate but I couldn't cite anything written. Allegations of state sponsered terroism may seem a little strong but that in the twenteth century government troops were indescrimitly physicly attacking catholics because of their relegion can't be described many other ways, esspecially considering Llyod George was well aware throughout.

This article needs to be rewritten

When I get a chance, at some point in the near future, I am going to re-write this entire article:

--it does not reflect the results of recent research by historians like Elizabeth Malcolm, W. J. Lowe, and myself;

(Despite the fact that it relies heavily on Dr. Malcolm's article on the subject in the Oxford Companion to Irish History.)

--it contains a number of mistakes;

(In fact, there is a mistake in the first line: the Black and Tans were not the RIC's Reserve Force. The Reserve was a separate force quartered at Phoenix Park, most of whose members came from the North: John Brewer interviewed one of its members for his oral history of the RIC.)

--and it is not NPOV.

(It does not mention, for example, the fact that many reprisals were committed by Irish members of the RIC--a fact to which Dr. Malcolm alludes in her article.)

Dr. David Leeson, PhD, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Canada

Justified atrocities

"..atrocities were committed (in most cases as just retribution for Irish brutality).."

I'm astonished that anyone would seek to justify or excuse atrocities against civilian populations. I've removed the reference to 'in most cases as just retribution for Irish brutality'.

I would have thought that the sentence was fine just so long as the word just is removed, provided that a cite can be provided that most atrocities were committed as retribution. Saying they were retribution then becomes nothing more than a statement of fact; it's only POV when we start saying that this justifies them (or, for that matter, if we start saying that it doesn't justify them). Binabik80 01:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Eric Barnett

The King made no secret of their horror at the behaviour of Crown forces which made international headlines, damaging British credibility. All Catholic's were branded even those who carried King Georges papers with appointment as an officer and served durring World War I, with distinction. I state the words " And we hereby Command them to Obay you as their superior Officer." Forced immigration was their plight as no protection could be had! Signed: someone who knows what happened. Terrorism no's no boundary, nor do's bigotry by those improperly trained and ill equiped to perform the task at hand.The British & Irish peaple are good peaple if they can see beyond their own pride.

M. Barnett. I am not a fan of the crown, but I have to call "bullspit" on that claim. That kind of claim requests and requires a citation. I studied the Rising and WWI in some detail, and nothing like that was required for Commonwealth Officers, Catholic or Jewish or Anglican, at least not that I've seen. At least during that time period. Catholic officers surely faced some discrimination, but nothing like that. All British soldiers were/are required to swear loyalty to the "Crown in Parliament," in any case. Ireland was never subject to conscription during the Great War, either. It was the "looming conscription" that led to the rebellion, as well as timely German aid, delivered by one Roger Casement. In other words, please cite your ancedote. V. Joe 08:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

'Saying they were retribution then becomes nothing more than a statement of fact'- Em, highly unlikely considering we are talking about the British crown forces of occupation taking action in Ireland against the native Irish. Only a British person could even attempt to claim that the colonial occupiers were taking "retribution" upon the, em, natives. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. El Gringo 23:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

There is the rub. Define British. The point is that a large number of 'native' Irish saw themselves as British, and still do on both sides of the border. Ireland was part of the UK and Irishmen and woman had exactly the same rights as anyone else living in Wales, Scotland or England. Irishmen and women sat in the House of Lords and Commons as well as holding senior appointments in the civil and military forces. Britain has even had a Irish Prime Minister. Shock horror, not all of these Irishmen were Protestants either! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fallonn (talk • contribs) 09:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

El Gringo, please challenge a person on the content of their argument rather than who they are. Logica 13:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Britannica Encyclopedia's take on the Black and Tans

Well, here's how the above mentioned encyclopedia start their entry on the Black and Tans: 'In their efforts to thwart the terrorism of the Irish Republican Army...'Well, that was enough for me. Sometimes, just sometimes, you can tell a book by its cover. El Gringo 17:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica is American. It has been American since the early 20th century. Just because it is "Britannica" doesn't mean it's British. You think Domino's Pizza is Italian? I hope this kind of presumptive thinking does not creep into your article edits. I shall be keeping an eye out. Logica 22:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Easter Rising

Like it or not the Rising was not a protest, it was an armed uprising. Rightfully so, or not, irrelevant, it was a revolt, not a protest, as IRA men, British soldiers and Irish and British Civillians all lost thier lives. I'm going to change that if it isn't fixed soon V. Joe 08:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Sorry all, but after brief reflection, decided to add an immediate fix. V. Joe 08:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The Black and Tans and British government were painted in too good of a light in this article. The Black and Tans were the often the worst of British society as the British government actively recruited criminals. Also the British failed to control these men as they were allowed to do whatever they wanted.

Please leave your signiture if you want your point to be taken seriously. Logica 13:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

History should be neutral in its interpretation of what happened. It is funny how if we do not like what we read we condemn it as biased. The British Government did not recruit criminals as Temporary Constables in the RIC (Black and Tans). The majority were ex-soldiers, which is not a supries when you consider that the vast majority of young adult males at the time had served in the armed forces, and had to have a record of 'Good' conduct recorded on their service records before they could join. Many had been decorated for gallantry, including one VC recipient. These men were not the dregs of society, but they were deeply affected by their experiences in the war. One has only to look at the RIC records held by both the British and Irish governments to dispel the hackneyed myth that the Black and Tans were the dregs of society. They were poorly trained policemen dealing with what they believed to be at best a rebellion and at worst criminal violence in what they believed to be part of their own country. And yes, over a third of them were recruited from what are now the 26 counties of the Irish Republic. Many more were from the North and a significant number were the children of Irishmen who had emigrated to Liverpool and Glasgow. Just read their service records for proof. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fallonn (talk • contribs) 09:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The famous Limerick hunt

The Adare Scarteen Hunt used (uses?) black-and-tan foxhounds.

• Is the name "Black and Tan Hunt" its official title or just a common nickname? Or perhaps it changed it after the negative connotations?
• I presume the Hunt used/s traditional riding gear coloured hunting pink, not black-and-tan
• Presumably, the name of the breed of dog came before the name of the hunt. Is there proof the RIC force was named after the Hunt rather than named after the breed of dog? Either is plausible.

jnestorius^(talk) 18:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Ben & Jerry's

Do we really need that section on the Ben & Jerry's "ice cream controversy"? As far as I am concerned, it really adds nothing to the article. In a few years, the ice cream will have been forgotten, but the historical importance of the Black and Tans themselves, and their notorious activities, will not have diminished. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Having received, after all these months, no response to this query, I have removed the section in question. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 21:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)