Talk:Misanthropy

Kurt Vonnegut and misanthropy

The following entry seems completely unrelated to misanthropy or it's prevalence in Vonnegut's work:

"In one of his most popular works, Slaughterhouse Five, the protagonist Billy Pilgrim "becomes unstuck in time." He is taken hostage by the Tralfamadorians, a race able to see in 4D, who can travel through time and experience all the events in their lives, not necessarily in chronological order. Through the novel they teach him a fatalistic philosophy, summed up in the book's signature phrase, "so it goes.""

"So it goes" doesn't seem particularly misanthropic at all. This reads simply as a summary of Slaughterhouse Five. Would someone who knows the book well care to draw a more direct connection? If not, I'd prefer to simply delete the quoted section. Atranox (talk) 15:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Language

"Human race", Humans are not a race but a species.

Regardless of the validity of a misanthropic worldview, some seem to believe that those with strongly-held misanthropy may suffer from low self-esteem, depression, and even suicidal tendencies. This is at best a tendentious and entirely subjective personal opinion which requires evidential substantiation.

Isn't this a TAD bit opinionated? Or is it really impossible to discuss this subject dispassionately?

It seems like this author was implying "the misanthropic worldview is quite valid (sound, even?). Those who don't agree with me are completely in denial."

I'm relatively misanthropic (acutally, I'm only disliking of civilized humans) but I'm not suffering low self-esteem, depression or sucidal tendencies. I'm pretty outgoing, though perhaps a bit socially awkward. But I'm not anywhere near depressed or suicidal.

Why is "accused" used so often? Seems NPOV to me, misanthropy isn't something we should be judging in this article, just something we are informing the reader about. --TomaydoDemato 14:42, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. I read it as: "Many associate a misanthropic worldview with depression, etc. This is not a necessary condition to be misanthropic, however, and shouldn't be considered the case unless there is evidence to suggest it." --Krovisser 17:51, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I have been/am suicidal and/or depressed. I don't really see how a misanthropist can be a happy person, given that they are surrounded by what they hate. But my objection to this article is

1. The sentence "Misanthropy does not necessarily imply an inhumane or sociopathic attitude towards humanity."

This sentence should most definitely be removed. If it does not imply these things, why is this sentence even here?? And would you put this sentence in a definition of Christianity, for example, and expect for people not to be offended?

I have to conclude that this can only be deliberate. It is put here exactly to imply that misanthropists are "inhumane" and "sociopathic". Especially because the words "inhumane" and "sociopathic" (whatever that is) are very prominently highlighted. This shows ridiculous insensitivity and even fascism.

Why exactly someone would highlight these two words as the most prominent in the paragraph when they are in the context of not being that, is a mystery unless this is deliberate. And, as it was obviously written by an "anti-misanthropist", that is ironic, given that it only adds to my immeasurable hatred of the human race by discriminating against me even when defining my ideological view.

2. (observe the hardcore idiocy of the inexplicable box around my last paragraph. I'm up against it, aren't I?)

Finally at the bottom, there is a link to "psychological conditions". What?!

While my example of Christianity can certainly be defined as that, Misanthropy is not schitzophrenic, delusional, or anything of that nature. Once again, would you put "Psychological Conditions" as a link from a popular ideology like the definition of Christianity without offending people?

"Why is "accused" used so often? Seems NPOV to me, misanthropy isn't something we should be judging in this article, just something we are informing the reader about. --TomaydoDemato 14:42, 6 September 2005 (UTC)"

Exactly!! Saying the message I got from this article was "Look out for misanthropes" would be an euphemism! I even thought for a moment that being a misanthrope alone was a crime! --Plavalagunanbanshee 16:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

This section is FLAWED

This is a tale of a meeting of two lonesome, skinny, fairly old white men on a planet which was dying fast.

Human beings will be happier - not when they cure cancer or get to Mars or eliminate racial prejudice or flush Lake Erie but when they find ways to inhabit primitive communities again. That's my utopia.

I really wonder what gives us the right to wreck this poor planet of ours.

These are not misanthropic statements. If those statements are misanthropic then one would have to logically conclude that all environmentalists are misanthropes. It seems to me as though whoever edited in this section was looking to randomly throw quotes from one of their favorite authors (a very famous, very popular author that almost anyone that reads has read).

Unnecessary, out of place, and irrelevant. I am not removing them because I don't feel like getting IP banned. However, unless you can offer up some logical explanation as to why these 3 statements are "misanthropic" then you need to remove them.

What they are is promoting environmentalism and the simple living movement. Caring about the planet and the preservation of it towards the survival of humanity != hatred of people or society. Who wrote that? A corporate exec for Mobile Oil?

Only a young person with poor reading comprehension would find those quotes to be representative of the misanthropes world view.

Satire

This paragraph makes one believe that misanthropy is something exclusive for satirists, but what about the people who became misanthropic due to those satirists? People who were humiliated and oppressed by them and therefore started hating humanity? The article is implying that misanthropic satirists are people to be respected, but it's exactly the satirists who are inciting other people to hate humans, because they don't respect anybody else themselves. 85.1.175.181 09:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Misanthropology

Is this a joke? I actually was wanting to start a band call misanthropology actually. But is this serious at all? I would appreciate some links. Template:Cleanup taskforce closed

Cleanup Taskforce

It looks like the main problem with this article is NPOV and a rather scattered look at the idea of misanthropy. I think the best way to organize this would be along the lines of misandry and misogyny, i.e.

1. Forms of misanthropy
2. misanthropyin popular culture
3. misanthropy in Mythology and/or
4. misanthropy in philosophy and religion

Kerowyn 00:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I've cleaned up the entire article and tried to remove the "misanthropy is teh evil!!1!" vibe. What do y'all think? Kerowyn 03:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Did a great job there dude! Didn't expect that high quality stuff when i came to this page. Wikipedia is getting generally better (just referring to the lead-in-def though not the whole article).Slicky 01:04, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Nihilism link

I think it should be made clear why there is a link to nihilism on this page. I personally have both misanthropic and nihilistic beliefs (e.g. one aspect of my worldview is that i have a disdain for human beings because of their search for meaning in a universe where non is accessable if it even exists). However I am hesitant to write this down as i am not sure how representative it is of nihilists/misanthropes as a whole.

Heidegger and Misanthropy

I don't think Heidegger's discussion of "The They" in Being and Time is misanthropic. You are welcome to try and argue that in an academic paper, but it is certaintly not an explicit or a widely discussed fact about Heidegger's thought. Just google "Heidegger" and "Misanthropy". There just isn't any active discussion of a link between Heidegger and misanthropy. If you can't back up your claim that his technical term "the they" is in any way misanthropic or involves a hatred of humanity, then please remove Heidegger's name from this article entirely! --Colin 19:43, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

George Carlin and Misanthropy

The later work of Comedian George Carlin is extremely misanthropic - moreso than Bill Hicks. He deserves to be added to the list of Misanthropists in Popular Culture.--Colin 19:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Albert Einstein and Misanthropy

I seem to remember a list of misanthropists that may have been on this site and disappeared. If that is so, it should be brought back.

Albert Einstein was a misanthropist. He developed the nuclear bomb in the quiet satisfaction that it would kill the people he hated so much. He especially hated the German people, which is documented in biographies, though he was actually an unconditional misanthropist.

"Only two things are Infinite - the Universe, and the People's stupidity. And I'm not sure about the former". It was Einstein who said this.

I think it's fair to conclude from this that the more intelligent one is, the more one hates the infinitely stupid masses Einstein talks about here. I certainly can substantiate such an attitude myself, a misanthropist and certified genius. (if you believe IQ tests, which I nor Einstein do). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.65.242.154 (talk) 07:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

According to the article on Einstein, scientists concerned over the possibility of Germany developing a nuclear weapon asked Einstein to sign their letter urging the US to develop one first. Also he has (apparently) said "The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." which goes with another (apparent) quote: "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.". People might be dumb, but he's clearly not "hateful" in the sense that he thinks we (or even Germans) should just all die. Recognizing our dumb-ness is not a sign of hate, anymore than recognizing that the sky is blue.

..did you just say you were a certified genious?

CLEANUP / REVISION!

This article is in heavy need of sectioning, and implementation/quoting of studies.

• A great misunderstanding is the quoting of misanthropy emerging from fictional species/androids. Misantropy is a specious-intrinsic term and does not have anything todo with evolutionary/or-otherwise rivalry between species. This would semantically be something like anti-humanist/anti-antrohpy (don't know if there is a term, as it wouldn't make any sense considering we are the only relevant real species to apply such a term)

I removed this for now:

Misanthropy has led to serial killings, although the same may be said for any form of virulent hatred, including extreme racism and misogyny. Carl Panzram, who murdered at least 21 people, said "I hate all the fucking human race. I get a kick out of murdering people" while in a Washington DC jail in 1922.
Misanthropy can be misunderstood to be a psychiatric disorder. Some believe that those with strongly-held misanthropy may suffer from low self-esteem, depression, and even suicidal tendencies. However, this view conforms to the stereotype of the “gruff loner, who just needs a little love,” and has little clinical data to support it.

The following things are apparent:

• misanthropy does not lead to serial killings, that is rather a manifested antisocial disorder. In fact misanthropes can appear very humane, prolly sarcastic. A likely depiction of a misanthrope can be seen in the show House MD. Misanthropes are to a great percentage prolly even more humanistic in their doing than normal people, as they are less egoistic, as depicted in the article in a quote: one sees himself and others to sit in the same boat (which is stalling/sinking whatever - metaphorically speaking). MOREOVER terminologically racism has nothing todo with misanthropy: The former is the opposition against certain features in goups of sapiens, the latter is opposed against the sapien species.

Misanthropy is unlikely to be a condition as it is rather a manifested philosophical view. Manifsted symptoms (depression, whatnot) that can be associated with misanthropes is another thing and certainly ARE medically well defined. Quoted STUDIES are needed if one would like to add something in that regard to the page! At last low self esteem doesn't really apply as a misanthrope would apply the low self esteem throughout any human being, thus there would be not differentiation possible contrary to the original way the term is used. So this low self esteem is rather misinterpreted strong humbleness.

Please add anything to the page as a revision. Slicky 14:14, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

At last the best corroborator wether one actually is a true misanthrope (after one has ample as-objective-as-it-gets indications) or not is the lifelong lack of children, distate of the mere concept to reproduction, copulation, grouping, et al. and therefore also lack of a partner.

You talk a whole lot Slicky. The more big words you use, the more insecure about your intelligence you sound. Sounds like you've been reading to many modern "philosophy" books. Let's keep it simple shall we. Einstein didn't use big words, nor did Feynman or Turing. If simple language is good enough for them, it's good enough for you.

Generally, "intellectualizing" social things is never helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.65.242.154 (talk) 08:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

However I do agree that Misanthropy is definitely not a "psychological condition". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.65.242.154 (talk) 08:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

euphemism

A euphemism makes a word less harsh and takes away negative meanings and connotations. Calling human beings "meatbags" isn't a euphemism. Insult isn't a great way to describe it, but it's the best I can think of, and it's more correct than 'euphemism' since it's the opposite of a euphemism.

- Maybe the word you're looking for is "pejorative?"

List-mania

Hate to say it, but this article would benefit from some good lists, especially in the pop culture section. - IstvanWolf 07:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Non-Human Misanthropes

Is it correct to include non-humans (such as Bender, the robot from Futurama) in the list of misanthropes? This seems to conflict with the very first sentence of the article, the definition of misanthropy as "a general dislike of the human race from the viewpoint of another human individual." This applies to at least Bender, Agent Smith and HK-47.

• i would have to say the same Fallen Angel ^talk 17:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
• I agree.

But can someone that is not human, that was origionally human be a Misasthrope, Envy from Full Metal Alechemist is one, but is no longer technicly human, and in much literature vampires are misanthropes, now they where born and raised human, but through event are no longer human.

• I came here to make this point too, but you beat me to it.

It could also argued that a BEM (bug-eyed-monster) that hated other BEMs might be more of a kind of 'misanthrope' than a BEM that hated humans, which might just be 'normal' for BEMs that get along with each other just fine. So a 'vampire' that hated other vampires might be more of a misanthrope than one who didn't like people. (At least without tobasco sauce.)

Oh, yes, and one more misanthropic example in literature - In 'Aliens', Ripley makes the point about the aliens not screwing each other over for a buck (or percentage or however that quote went). Humans are certainly their own worst enemy in this film. The aliens aren't 'misanthropic' just because they kill humans and feed some of them to their babies, any more than you could be 'misanthropic' about cows while eating a burger.

Marvin (from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) might be an excellent non-human misanthrope. Not only does he hate people, he hates other robots, too. OK, so more precisely, he loathes everybody and everything. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.27.128.205 (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

And Phantom from MAR should be included, I mean lets not forget about his long hatred rant.

Philosophy Section

This seems both badly written and somewhat irrelevant. Possibly delete it?

No don't delete it you twit. Why would you delete it? It is serious. And also Why did people delete the user box? I hate people damnit! MegaloManiac 17:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Lists

Someone's gotta do something about this article. The lists of misanthropes is way too long compared to the entire article. Either simplify the lists, or elaborate more on the subject at hand. I know I wont do it, I'll just leave it up to some of the humans passing across this page who, by the way, I hate! (Except for the 10~15 who I have developed a mutually advantageous relationship with). Also, just tell me if any other misanthropes have experienced this: Falling in love with a fellow human, without his/her knowledge, then tossing the argument around in your head that you have no right to like her, because shes just a human and you know a relationship would be pointless and futile, but you continue to freak out about it?

---I'm leaving this unsigned purposely, don't cut yourself over it.

Userbox

MisanthropeThis user is a Misanthrope.

I made this user box so love me.MegaloManiac 00:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

MandkindThis user is a Misanthrope.

I made this one too. Its closer to the old one. MegaloManiac 23:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

About Judaism (And Tragic Overgeneralizations)

I want to point it out, I am no fan of Israel or Zionism, and think that there is some truth that Zionism is inherantly a racist movement (afterall, it was invented in the 1800's, and mainly by a man who talks about how profitable it would be to invent racial anti-semitism so as to spur the Aliyah onward), however, I feel it is my personal obligation ot object to the statement, or at least rendering there of, that seems to suggst that this is the typical Judaic (as well as biblical) mindset of that religion (though it evidently was common from between the Diaspora to the 20th century).

This statement is as follows:

Judaism attributes an irremediable inferior animal nature to all "Nations," namely all non-Jews, inferior by divine ordination to the "chosen" members of the Tribe..

Remember, Talmud is a collection of various traditions from various authors, some of it is biggoted (one may look at the testamony of Israel Shahak or the Bjerkins libraries [1] [2] to get some decent information on the subject), and even contradictory, not only with the Torah but with itself as well (the Karaites are the most apt ones to pick up on this, bless them). The point being that these racist traditions are not inherently a part of the Bible, nor need be part of Judaism either. A good place to look at this subject is Manfred Davidmann's works on the conflict between the plain meaning of the Torah and Talmudic Judaism.

• http://www.solbaram.org/articles/fn2.html
• http://www.solbaram.org/articles/fn3.html
• http://www.solbaram.org/articles/fn4.html

Thanks, and please guard yourselves from generalities, they tend to effect group-think in a bad way. -- RoyBot

Randal Graves ("Clerks")

There's a line spoken by Randal that sums up his misanthropic tendencies (therefore perhaps he should be included in the "pop culture references" section?)

"I hate people, but I love gatherings. Ironic, isn't it?" or something to that effect. His apathetic, or even malicious, actions towards paying customers is pretty good evidence as well. 199.214.27.152 17:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

While one could make a case that he has misanthropic tendencies (though he's probably just somewhat antisocial, given his considerable concern for Dante), this article isn't a list of misanthropes, it's just to explain the term. --TM 21:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Examples from literature?

Would the article benefit from specific examples for each of the authors listed? For instance, I believe one of Jonathan Swift's statements was something along the lines of "I hate and detest the animal called Man, but I love the occasional Tom, Dick, and Harry" and Florence King provides no scarcity of examples either. One of my favorites from her is "I've never understood why solitary confinement is considered a form of punishment in prison". Some of the authors already have examples given, but it might help to include examples for any others as well. SquareWave 04:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Misanthropology?

Ok, so my first request for info on this was ignored (perhaps because I was an anon back then). Is misanthropology for real? Seriously, I thought I invented that term when I was thinking of possible names for future bands. The first few hits on google don't make it seem like it is any kind of serious scientific study, but more a clever combination of words. Ungovernable Force^{Poll: Which religious text should I read?} 04:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing it as no one has responded in over a week. Ungovernable Force^{Poll: Which religious text should I read?} 03:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Saying there is no such thing as misanthropology would be like saying there is no such thing as "mixology". Just because something is not formally recognized by academics as being an established field of study doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People have been studying misanthropology since at least the time of Socrates; it has just went under the names of ethics, philosophy, political science, psychology, sociology, criminalogy, peace studies, etc.; I suppose "mixology" would fall under chemistry and kinesthetics, but it still is worthy of an article. Shanoman 20:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The difference is that mixology is a notable term and we can find reliable sources refering to it. I'm not saying the term misanthropology doesn't exist--I'm saying there does not appear to be any notable field of study that uses that term (and notable is different than recognized by academics). I am not seeing any consistent usage of the term misanthropology that would suggest it is any kind of field of study. Such a claim needs to be sourced. If we are going to mention it exists, there needs to be a source for it. Until someone finds a reliable source, that information should be removed. Ungovernable Force^{Poll: Which religious text should I read?} 02:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Term seems a WP:NEO and should be avoided in wikipedia until it catches on on its own accord.--ZayZayEM 02:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Craig Jones from Slipknot

On his article, it states that he is misanthropic. I was wondering if we could somehow mention him into this article

Animal Supremacism

How do humans hate humans, but love animals? Or is this referring to PETA like psychos?

Well, take Hitler as an example. I've met several people who claim to love ALL animals, but hate all or most people; seems like they think animals are superior, as in being more natural or "Godly", but they see humans as being somehow "unnatural" and "demonic". Also, check out the article on VHEMT. Shanoman 18:25, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Hate the people, love the person?

Is there a separate, different term for someone who mostly hates society (and its ramifications in religion, government, law, morality, culture, business, etc.) but extremely loves human beings and sympathizes with their true biological, emotional, and intellectual needs? I don't think the term "humanitarian misanthrope" (which I did not originate) quite cuts the mustard; I'm thinking of something more along the lines of "mis-societarian philanthropist", or "anti-societarian anthropocentrist". Of course, I will not create articles on these terms, as I know they will quite promptly be deleted by hyper-deletionist minimalist editors, who are probably also arch-societarian misanthropes! (LOL). Shanoman 14:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

what a wonderfully written discussion! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.108.73.47 (talk) 10:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed Blog Link

There was a link to http://www.misanthropytoday.com, which is a blog with no apparent relevance to the topic outside of having misanthropy in the title. -70.230.150.86 01:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems relevant to me shitbag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.139.86.3 (talk) 21:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Larry David in Curb Your Enthusiasm

I removed this paragraph from the Misanthropy in Popular Culture section because it was inserted as a direct copy/paste of the House paragraph. If someone can support the character's misanthropy, then by all means, write it up, but we don't need to copy and paste the same paragraph. It might as well be a list if we do that. Here's the paragraph:

The character of Larry David, in the TV show Curb Your Enthusiasm is typically described as misanthropic. When confronted with someone whose behavior or philosophy flies in the face of his opinions, he will often go to great lengths to prove that his underlying philosophies are, in fact, correct.

It's not even a particularly good paragraph, really. I don't watch the shows so I can't add detail to the original, but removing the copy, I can do. -Tiresias BC (talk) 14:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)