Talk:Counterpoint

I am forced to say there is no studious language which enables me to properly argue the fact that this article is at best, terribly problematic. There is no proper or even accurate definition of the technique of counterpoint in the article and it's historical "use" is completely false (see Shenker, Schacter etc) The weak attempt at genre-izing counterpoint in non Westen Music mediums is simply not possible. One cannot alter the true features of counterpoint to fit different types of music. In the first place, counterpoint is not a form of composition (again see Shenker or Schacter on the subject) nor is it a derivation of 15th-18th Century music. Counterpoint is an abstraction of free compositional techniques as derived from nature, as practiced by such masters as JS Bach, Beethoven and Brahms. I have to recommend this article be completely redone by someone who is familiar with counterpoint. Something is not true just because we say it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tadcaster (talk • contribs) 04:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Melodic Strands

... Melodic strands? ... uh, do you think we could use more appropriate language in this respect? Voices, perhaps? — Ryguillian

yeah we could say 'melodies' 'lines' 'parts' 'voices' etc.

The term "melody", "melodic strand" is foreign to any discussion in the main works on counterpoint. A cantus firmus does not share the same features as a melody (or "chorale", as termed by Shenker). A melody, as it applies to tonality, is a feature of free composition and therefore built around a tonality (key). If you read any SIGNIFICANT works on counterpoint, Schacter or Shenker for example, you will learn that counterpoint is definately not a watered down version of harmony and is not intended to be. It is interesting to note that Shenker, the excepted authority on the subject, spends much of his intro to his book "Counterpoint (vol. 1) explaining why the past masters (Fux, Albrechtsberger etc) also confused the concepts of "melody" of the old masters and cantus firmus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.134.122 (talk) 14:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Origin

(page originally created by User:Fleeb)

Credit where credit is due and all that, but you can find this out by checking the History page. Removed; sorry Fleeb, but this doesn't add to the article.

"punctus contra punctum ("note against note")". Not that it's a matter of life and death, but it should be "point against point", hence counterpoint, and not counternote.

Removed

Removed from the article:

Bold textcould someone who knows please tell me how to write counterpoint and explain the number thingys that are used? thanks, Gez

Writing counterpoint isn't a simple matter, and if I was going to teach you how to do it, I'd have to charge vast sums of money ;) For the "number thingys", maybe you mean figured bass? --Camembert

Maybe number thingys includes diatonic intervals? Hyacinth 01:07, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"The same cantus firmus is used for each, and each is in the Dorian mode." - No it isn't. This is a tonal example, not modal. The example is in d-minor. How else can you explain the leading tone c# to d? This does not exist in d-dorian. This article is pretty sloppy I must say.

No, you are mistaken. In 16th century counterpoint, in Dorian mode, at the cadence you raise the leading tone. Every counterpoint book -- and I mean every counterpoint book--will present you with copious examples of this. The examples are in Dorian, as it is understood in the practice of species counterpoint. Antandrus (talk) 05:39, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Antandrus, at the cadence it always goes final -> raised 7th -> final. This happens in all modes except the phrygian mode (as it states) If this was written in d-minor, there would be B-flat and E-flat, even in the harmonic minor (with the c#, there would still be the two flats). This is clearly in D dorian because of the key signature. Minnimob 02:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I added a section of overall considerations, which includes the requirement to raise the leading tone at the cadence. The rules list could be a lot longer, but since it's a basic article on counterpoint, not a counterpoint manual, I only included the major ones. Antandrus (talk) 06:08, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Species defines

According to the article:

"It is a common and pedantic misconception that counterpoint is defined by these five species, and therefore anything that does not follow the strict rules of the five species is not counterpoint. This is not true; although much contrapuntal music of the common practice period indeed adheres to the rules, there are exceptions. Fux's book and its concept of "species" was purely a method of teaching counterpoint, not a definitive or rigidly prescriptive set of rules for it."

I have always found it hard to believe that there are "exceptions" to the rules, occasionally during the 200 years of the common practice period. It seems to me that counterpoint which follows the species rules would be the exception. Hyacinth 01:07, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree, Hyacinth. My editing adds "pedantic", as a further qualification of the view discussed. But I didn't want to interfere too much. (Do I dare disturb the universe? You bet! It disturbed me first...!) --Noetica 01:25, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the rules for counterpoint were developed well after it's hay day. The Rulers are an adaptation put together by music historians, theorists and musicologists as a pedagogical tool to teach people how to write music in the style. Certainly if you've examining the music of Binchois you'll find few exceptions to these rules that have been developed, but Palestrina's works are filled with exceptions. So of course they we're breaking the rules because they didn't exist yet. -Liam

Suggestion

A midi file for each of the different illustrations would be a good complement. It also gives a more tangible sense of what counterpoint is. Rintrah 09:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC) if you've examined(not)if you've ixamining[reply]

Considerations for all species

The article states:

"Students of species counterpoint usually practice writing counterpoint in all the modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian and Aeolian)."

Where's the Locrean mode? Did the writer just forget it, or was it not used? If it was indeed not in use, could someone please edit the article to explain why? Henre 21:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Correct: it was not in use. There were eight modes used until about the middle of the 16th century (Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and their respective plagal variants). Glareanus published the Dodecachordon in 1547, showing that there were actually twelve (adding Aeolian and Ionian, with their plagal variants), although he was really just showing contemporary practice. Locrian was never used, probably because of the instability of having a tritone with the tonic. By the time of Palestrina, which is the "common practice" for the type of counterpoint discussed in the article, the modes described by Glarean were the only ones in use, with the additional stipulation that they tended to be rather like the major and minor scales at the cadences (i.e. using a raised leading tone) -- except for the Phrygian. (Other than a single Dead Kennedys song I can't think of a single piece in the Locrian mode ... I'd love to know if there are any.)

I'll try to think of a way to write some of this in the article. Antandrus (talk) 20:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Intro

Noetica- What is an organizing principle? Wouldn't a technique be more than an organizing principle, as I'd assume an organizing principle is one type of technique? -Hyacinth 23:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First let me say, Hyacinth, that I am pleased with the edits you have just done. I think the lead is now just fine. Personally, I would have thought that organising principle is an appropriately broad notion, and that technique is, in this context, subordinate to it. What could technique mean here, after all? A technique of composition, surely. But counterpoint is more than that. There are techniques of counterpoint, just as there are techniques of harmonisation, writing for string trios, etc. On the other hand, there are broad organising principles like regularity of metrical structure, division into identifiable phrases marked by cadences, etc. In any case, though I might not myself have written texture in the lead, given that there is an article expanding on the notion I am happy to leave it alone – though I have added a more accurately focused link for simultaneous, as you can see. – Noetica 05:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Counterpoint in popular music

Why do we have this section? Counterpoint is a pretty broad term; most music can be said to use counterpoint in some way or other. What are we trying to say with this? To me it just looks like a magnet for lists of songs and artists people like, with no real informational value. - Rainwarrior 21:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Counterpoint appears in numerous contexts, and these kind of sections always turn into weed patches, where everyone adds their favorite little tidbit. I'd be fine with this section removed. Antandrus (talk) 21:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Mak (talk) 22:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that the section should be removed entirely. This entire article reads like a PhD thesis on Classic Music Theory and it seems to discount the notion that counterpoint can exist in popular music. I do agree that this section became too long with far too many obscure, unknown examples by punk groups, etc. However, the use of counterpoint, especially in musicals, is notable and I don't think it's at all fair to remove it completely. Let's just keep it short and succinct and not use too many obscure examples. I really hate it when people unilaterally remove entire sections just because they think it's too long, and because they are too lazy to do the work of editing the section to make them shorter. --Mezaco 19:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In my mind, the Les Miserables example uses polyphony, not counterpoint. -- Yano 23:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All false. Counterpoint is not a "broad concept" nor does it exist in many types of music. To say so is an admission of a lack of fundamental understanding about what the purpose of counterpoint is. Again, counterpoint is not a form of composition and superficial similarities (such as non western music that moves note against note) does not AUTHENTICALLY define that music as counterpoint (!) I will also say, that neither the TRUE definition of counterpoint to encompass other types of music or trying to categorize music of other cultures AS counterpoint adds NOTHING to either. It does not lead us to a better understanding of either counterpoint or the music of other cultures. The act of trying to bring pop music, non-westen music etc etc into the argument is merely a weak attempt at adding some genuine content to an article which lacks deeper undestanding of the meaning and purpose of counterpoint.

Countour?

I noticed this word in the introduction, but not being a musician I don't know what it means. There is no article for it on Wikipedia, the dictionary draws a blank and Google returns what mainly look like misspellings of contour. Is countour a spelling mistake? If not, could a knowledgeable person please write an article on it and turn the word into a wikilink? John Dalton 23:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's just contour, John. Fixed now. –Noetica 23:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a musical person could write an article on "Contour (Music)" and add it to wikipedia please? Wikipedia doesn't seem to document this concept. It might be as simple as a redirection if contour is a synonym or subset of some other musical concept which does have an article? John Dalton 05:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

John, it's really quite an easy notion. It's the up-and-down shape of a melodic line. Think of a particular roller-coaster track: it too has a certain contour, or perhaps set of contours, yes? The term is self-explanatory enough, I had thought, not to need special definition. Anyway, I intend to do some general revising in this article soon, so I'll bear in mind this difficulty. If you have had it, others might have it also, I guess.

– Noetica^♬♩ Talk 09:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Homosynchrono"

An anon is persistently adding the following:

Homosynchrono counterpoint (which literally means, "the same at the same time") is when the prime form of a melody is played concurrently with one or more permutation of itself. This includes homosynchrono retrogrades, inversions, augmentations/diminutions, and concentric canons.

This word, as of right now, gets exactly three google hits which are not on Wikipedia itself. It appears to be a recent coinage by one person who has written one paper promoting it (one of the hits), and is also the domain name for a website by the same person.

I have removed this paragraph several times since any additions need to be terms already in standard usage, in conformance with our policy that everything needs to have been already published in multiple, independent, reliable sources; this addition appears to be original research. This newly-coined word should not appear in the article until it is in as common usage as diminution, augmentation, and the other terms in that subsection of the article. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 18:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was just about to post a similar question here and found this note. Removed again. I also removed a speculative edit on counterpoint outside Western music. Including a non-Western approach to counterpoint would make a fine addition, but it needs to be referenced and shouldn't be based on what might exist. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Counterpoint outside Western music and more

Sluzzelin and I had a talk on ‘counterpoint’ while its implication might be wider than it looks. I quote them as follows in order to attract more attention and responses.

Hi, Sluzzelin,

Hmmm… How do you want me to provide references?

I have some image files of ancient Chinese music scores. However, you may need a training to read it, their symbols are even different from modern Chinese.

Sean TX Wu (at GymSean(Talk))

Hello, Sean. I hope my removal and reasoning didn't offend you, I really do think that including a non-Western perspective would make for a valuable expansion of the article's current scope.

First of all, I suggest writing about what is known and can be referenced. For example, your phrasing was vague ("it might have most commonly been", "the practice might have been existing in a lot of areas around the world".) Did it or didn't it exist? How did it exist? Where did it exist? What are the shared characteristics and where do they differ? etc.

Secondly, I'm not a scholar of Chinese music, but I do believe that techniques and aesthetic rules comparable to Western counterpoint can be found outside Western music. These comparisons need to be specific and referenced. "For example, we have found plenty of cases in Chinese music history in which the earlier ones might be traced back to thousands years ago." (Also, who is we?)

Finally, the language may be a problem, but not necessarily. I admit that I neither understand nor am even able to read Chinese (whether modern or not). Do any publications on counterpoint in Chinese musical scores or structures exist in English as well? This might be a starting point. If they exist in Chinese, some people might oppose their inclusion, but not me. If they're referenced they can be verified by other users who happen to understand Chinese, or by myself with help of a translator.

Once again, I hope you find a way to include this potentially valuable information. I have asked Antandrus to weigh in. He's a scholar as well as an administrator with a lot of experience regarding musical articles at Wikipedia. Maybe he can help you. Take care. Sluzzelin talk 10:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, I'd like to add more comments:

1. I appreciate Sluzzelin’s interest to include non-Western perspectives. I believe it is the wiki’s objective to expand a worldwide scope instead of a Western-centered point of view. It will require a long-term pursuit and not be limited to 'Counterpoint'.

For another example, I found the wiki's ‘The Well-Tempered Clavier’, which is the base of counterpoint, described Bach’s publication (in 1722) and his leading contribution in the twelve-tone equally tempered scale. However, this story did not mention that a earlier Chinese musician and mathematician Zu Zai-Ui had already published a systematical and deliberated book that established the well-tempered scale in 1584; thenceforth he also had redesigned the instruments of the orchestra to play the well-tempered scale.

2. There are heavy literatures that keep, examine and develop the Chinese music theories and its evolution; however, there is relatively rare in English version. I have checked the wiki’s Chinese version; most of them are direct translation from English version. They are bare of original Chinese information included.

I am wondering if you have a ‘call-for’ system to recruit a qualified translator to provide the evidences you need.

3. In the fields of arts, aesthetics, history, behavioral sciences and probability knowledge, we (I, my colleagues, my students, my readers and my friends who agree with me) want to be careful enough to use the word ‘might’. We'd like to constantly remind ourselves that under a certain chance, we ‘might’ still make a bad judgment even though we have strong evidences.

Txwu A.K.A GymSean(Talk) 18:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Volume on MIDI Playback

These MIDIs seem to have incredibly low volumes. Does anyone else have to turn the volume WAY up to hear them? If so, maybe we can get new recordings, preferably on a non-percussive instrument? Any string bank that sustains sound throughout the note value would be better, I think. -- Yano 23:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Independence in this Context

I've been trying to understand what counterpoint is but I can't seem to find anything which explains what independent and interdependent, as used at the start of the article mean in a music theory context. I've been able to understand other music theory articles but this one stumps me. If I'm having trouble with it, I think other people might be too. Because of this, I suggest either a rephrasing or extra sentences for explanation. Munci (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Independent" means they are different. "Interdependent" in this context means they harmonize in a pleasing way. If you take two completely different tunes and play them simultaneously on two different CD players, they do not harmonize; if they create any harmonious sounds at all, it would be at random. Counterpoint involves two or more lines so contrived as to be different, but yet coming together harmoniously. Hope this helps, Antandrus (talk) 19:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I get it. Would it be at all be similar to polyrhythms? Is the difference that counterpoint is with multiple separate melodies whereas polyrhythms are with rhythms? Munci (talk) 19:23, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think that's a fair comparison. The concept of polyrhythm usually involves a shorter "unit" (e.g. three against four) while counterpoint involves longer time-spans (an entire phrase, say, rather than just the duration of a single beat). Antandrus (talk) 19:29, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be a good idea, do you think, to put in the article your first explanation here? Munci (talk) 19:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can try but I'm not really sure where to fit it. Not in the lead. Maybe in the first paragraph after the first subheading? Antandrus (talk) 19:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, go ahead. I would have thought the lead would have been best though because it would fit in easily without changing the surrounding words much. Munci (talk) 20:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Death metal counterpoint?

are death metal songs really examples of counterpoint? The musical pieces of the mentioned bands seem to be examples of multiple guitar harmonization, more than well defined contrapuntal sequences (except for maybe the slowed down passages of Nile). I wont edit that part in the article, though.Leif edling (talk) 16:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]