Talk:Mammaliaformes

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Picture

OK, I'm still laughing, so bear with me here...why is there a picture, in this article regarding mammaliaforms, of a hedgehog? Does someone have some news to share with the scientific community regarding this creature, formerly thought to be a modern placental mammal? --Kaz 18:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? All living mammals are also Mammaliaformes. I chose a hedgehog because its cranial morphology and molar pattern are fairly similar to the ancestral state. It definitely is a modern placental mammal (and therefore a mammaliform). I'm not really catching the joke. --Aranae 21:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's best to represent a clade by a primitive representative, one that possesses features (especially synapomorphies) shared by all members of the clade. Ideally we'd show a fossil from close to the root of the clade. However, if the hedgehog is the best we can do, then we need an explanation along the lines you give in the paragraph above. Gdr 22:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right now, the mammal page has a lion image, insect has a honeybee, rodent has a capybara, primate has a baboon, odd-toed ungulate has a zebra, even-toed ungulate has a rocky mountain goat, mollusk has a squid, etc. I would argue that all of those display very derived characters compared to other members of the group. The consensus seems to be that anything in the clade will do for a taxobox image. I would be happy to see any other mammaliaform take the place of the hedgehog image, I just don't see the point in having no image when there are so many to choose from. Right now, the only non-mammal mammaliaform that currently has an image is Castorocauda, which would be fine (perhaps better) if there's no problem claiming fair use for that one. Otherwise we're stuck with a mammal. There are a few early fossil mammals, Repenomamus, Fruitafossor, Deltatheridium (more potential copyright problems), and Leptictidium (copyright?). Any interest in any of these? I don't care if it's a human, zebra, or Morganucodon, I just think there should be an image. --Aranae 23:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the articles you listed need better pictures too! Copyright concerns aside, I think the Castorocauda picture would be better than the hedgehog. But the hedgehog would be OK with a note its that "cranial morphology and molar pattern are fairly similar to the ancestral state". Gdr 23:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm adding the Castorocauda image. It's been used elsewhere in a similar format and, if copyright doesn't allow it, we can always change it later. --Aranae 23:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Taxonomy

Ok, as I'm not part of wikiproject mammals I'm not going to force this system or anything, but I'd liek to point out that in most pages dealing with taxonomy, especially in the reptile sections, we've been using a classification system based on evolutionary taxonomy, rather than pure cladistic or pure Linnean. Basically, taxa are given regular linnean ranks based on agreed upon standards. Lower taxa can contain other "major" (usually crown-group or similar) higher taxa based on agreed-upon cut-off points. For example, the Order Therapsida (class Synapsida) contains the class Mammalia even though the later is higher rank. This has worked very well as a comprimise between the two camps, and provides added usefulness to the average reader by keeping the taxoboxes Linnean (they really are useless from a purely cladistic point of view, unless they include hundreds of unranked taxa). This also helps keep the taxonomy and taxoboxes standard across entries, which makes the animal pages more user friendly.

In standard Linnean practice, Mammaliaformes is a subclass within Mammalia. In evolutionary taxonomy, which tries to take the best of Linnean and phylogenetic taxonomy, it would be either a subclass or superorder of Class Synapsida, since phylogenetically they are not true mammals, and more information is conveyed by keeping them as mammal-like synapsids. Anyway, just a suggestion.Dinoguy2 14:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We're almost one year later and I decided to follow your suggestions, something I already did earlier this monthDaMatriX 19:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mammal vs. Almost Mammal

Hi, all, this is an interesting article. But as a moderately informed layperson, I'm finding it a little hard to follow. It might help if an expert could lay out more clearly what characteristics separate mammals from other non-mammal mammaliaformes. Thanks for reading this. JamestownArarat 01:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That would depend on which of the several competing definitions of Mammalia you are using. 85.8.12.78 (talk) 10:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]