User talk:Abd

Notice to IP and newly-registered editors

IP and newly registered editors: due to vandalism, it has become necessary that this page be semiprotected, which may prevent you from leaving a message here. If you cannot edit this page, please leave me messages at User talk:Abd/IP.

Delegable proxies

I think that's a very interesting idea. I think it could work out very well (or very badly). One problem is that I think new people or unpopular people would feel disenfranchised. However, I'd like to see it tested: but not on English Wikipedia: on some other, smaller wiki, to see how it works out. If it's successful on a number of other wikis we might consider using it here.

Here are some ideas for modifications:

• The person could specify first choice, second choice and so on of person to represent them, and only if none of those is present at a discussion would they be represented by someone further down the chain.
• A direct delegate could carry a vote with a weight less than 1; it might be 0.5 or 0.8 or something, to represent the fact that their point of view on average will not be exactly the same as that of the person they're representing. And then indirect delegates after n links could carry a vote with weight (0.8)ⁿ. This would help alleviate the problem that likely after many steps, the point of view of the delegate won't have much relevance to the point of view of the original voter. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 15:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The first test is indicated below. It's designed to develop and estimate Wikipedia consensus regarding my behavior and the community response. The most difficult thing will be attracting participation; many times before I've seen situations (in RL) that were crying out for this particular solution. And many would even say, "What a great idea!" But getting even two or three people to name proxies, like pulling teeth. And I don't try to pull teeth, I generally drop it. Proposed delegable proxy for a school parent association at a meeting Wednesday. Got better response than I have ever seen, with consensus that we should look into it. I'd still estimate the probability that it would actually happen at about ten percent. However, it would be, if tried, I believe, spectacularly successful, building a much stronger and effective parent association. It's not about voting. It's about communication, setting up identified communication channels, so that any consensus found isn't suffering from participation bias, which is often severe in small associations; there may be a hundred parents of children at the school. And getting five at a parent association meeting usually doesn't happen. So the few volunteers who participate typically think that they represent the community when, in fact, they only represent those who have time to attend meetings. They just made a decision, the two of them who discussed it -- the officers of the association -- and they implemented it, and it was irreversible. They decide to turn the parent mailing list -- which my wife is the yahoogroups owner of -- to change the list to "closed," and to delete certain old messages that they considered might be "confusing" to new parents. When my wife discovered this, she removed the moderator privileges of the officer who had done that, and notified the list, and there was a meeting Wednesday to consider it. And there was total consensus at the meeting that this actions had been in error, at least to the extent that the whole group should have been consulted and informed (the deletions began last April), but nobody was watching the archive and, more exactly, the activity logs.) This is a classic example of small-scale consensus that is directly reversed from large-scale consensus, there was conflict of interest involved. Nobody blamed the officers, and they agreed that it had been a mistake, and we are simply looking forward, how to make association process more efficient without creating more opportunities for the same kind of mistake. And, I think, we know how to do it. Delegable proxy is a piece of that.

Proxies aren't necessary to follow the process below, they don't need to be in place to begin. However, if the discussions become tedious, naming a proxy becomes a way to virtually participate by naming another users whose opinions the naming editor thinks are most likely of the choices to represent their opinion. It does not have to be exact and, in fact, no !votes, if polls are taken, will be considered to be the !votes of others. But I, when it comes time for me to consider the implications of the !votes, may consider this. I have invited participation by IP editors and even banned users, and I will decide if it's necessary to factor for such things as possible sock puppets, etc. This kind of trial is pretty much what we had in mind in proposing WP:Delegable proxy, which involved no changes in policies or guidelines, it was purely labelled as an experiment, voluntary, and nonbinding. And still there was an outcry and attempts to absolutely crush it. It will be, I'd predict, far more difficult to crush this experiment, because of its very severely limited scope and its purely advisory and nonbinding nature. The only time wasted is mine, any other time wasted would be purely voluntarily devoted by the editor "harmed," and, in fact, it is far more likely to reduce wasted time, compared to, for example, a user RfC or an ArbComm case. If a consensus is found here, it binds nobody, but it, and the evidence and arguments developed, could very efficiently be turned into an RfC or ArbComm filing, should there be any need for that, which I doubt. That is really only if this doesn't work, if it is inconclusive. And, thus, if inconclusive, it returns us to where we were before I started up this thing, but better prepared to proceed to resolution. --Abd (talk) 18:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

If you ever set up a system where I can actually begin participating in a test of such a system without having to read more than about one or two screenfuls of text I would appreciate a message letting me know. I'm also willing to help you shorten things if asked. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure. User:Abd/RfC is designed for that. Go to User:Abd/RfC/Proxy Table and add your signature to it as described. It should take a minute, you can read much less than a screen full. If you name a proxy, the proxy will handle communications with you, mostly. I.e., should some action by you be considered appropriate by your proxy, it would routinely be your proxy to suggest it. Otherwise you are protected from noise generated in the process. If permission is granted, I might also notify you at certain critical points. Briefly. However, I have no control over how long any conclusions from this RfC will be, they could be very brief, or they could be complex and long, because, I think, some complex and important issues were raised by my block. Depends on what the community of those participating decides. If you have put your name on that list, and you have not named a proxy, or if a chain of proxies doesn't somehow end up pulling in your participation, I'd probably notify you maybe twice: fairly early on, before much has been decided, to suggest that you might name a proxy from among those participating, or someone you trust who has named a proxy from those participating, and then at the end, when there is an expression of conclusions (which can be more than one conflicting conclusion) with votes on it, and then estimation of consensus on it using the expansions. While this is for my information primarily, others may find it of value. --Abd (talk) 17:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's really quite simple, but it takes many more words to describe, a demonstration will show it much better than many words about it.

Voluntary User space restriction; process to detemine the facts of my block. Blaze trail.

Because the issues that led to my block have not been resolved, because it is asserted that I committed what I consider would be egregious offenses against other users and the community, and I have not acknowledged and shown that I have understood and agree that the charges are correct,; because I therefore consider that the alleged offenses are likely to repeat; because I can therefore anticipate that my participation, whether in article space or in wikipedia space is likely to be disruptive; I am voluntarily restricting myself to my user space, as if topic-banned over all parts of Wikipedia with the following exceptions:

(1) If my comment or intervention is requested, I will consider such requests and may make an exception to this ban, in which case the requesting user would bear some share of the responsibility for any disruption that results. Please do not make frivolous requests, and do not invite me if you expect my participation will be disruptive, beyond the disruption that naturally takes place when some apparent consensus -- or even the opinion of a single user -- is questioned. I would not intervene if I see that there is already a true consensus, i.e., community agreement based on evidence and sufficiently broad participation.

(2) I may comment in ongoing discussions where I consider that comment to be necessary, or damage to the project or the community is reasonably likely to occur. This would include, but is not necessarily restricted to, my assistance in matters connected to User:Wilhelmina Will, the RfC for User:Elonka and the rather knotty issue of her requested recall, as well as Routemaster or other articles where I have previous participation. I will not seek out new areas of involvement on my own initiative.

(3) I may make noncontroversial edits in article or article talk space. I will only make possibly controversial edits in articles where I already have a significant involvement (and therefore my knowledge of the issues may be important to prevent damage to the article from, say, POV edits).

(4) Otherwise as WP:IAR requires. It better be good!

I had requested that I be unblocked with a user space restriction, before. With the exceptions listed above, I am now placing myself in the position that would have existed if my request had been accepted, if that request had not been mooted by my unconditional unblock. Various editors and, even, a troll or two, have suggested that the unblock was a problem because the issues were not resolved. I agree, hence this voluntary restriction, which guarantees, far more than the unconditional unblock, that my participation or my exploration of the issues involved in the block will not be disruptive.

I will explain in further posts how I plan to proceed, to resolve the issues, so that I can either stand advised that I had actually committed the offenses, exactly what they were and why my defenses and explanations were in error, and thus if I repeat those offenses I am either incompetent or otherwise a danger to the community, or that I did not commit the offenses, or was otherwise improperly blocked. (For example, I may have "harassed," but I stopped it before block and this was known to the blocking admin, and therefore the block was improper, and this was actually the basis of my unblock request, not a denial of harassment.)

Many -- indeed the vast majority of our six million registered editors -- will not want to participate in this process. However, it will begin as an open process, in my user space, and, if any editor wishes to be notified, specifically, as to how to participate, or support participation by someone else, such that it might be possible for me to estimate a true community consensus, without requiring all these people personally spending time reading evidence and arguments and investigation by more than a few editors, please append your signature below, and you may then unwatch my user page if you find it tedious. I will notify you, on your Talk, how you can assist and form a part of the eventual consensus here with a simple action that need take no more than a minute. Your signature here will not obligate you in any way, it merely indicates interest in the outcome here.

Canvassing is permitted, that is, it is allowed (by me) for any editor to solicit the signature of others, here; obviously, I cannot and would not waive the guidelines involving mass Talk page posts. More will be revealed. This list will be taken as a list of editors interested in the outcome of this process, plus others who later involve themselves. Involving yourself also will be taken as a consent to be notified (once) regarding any outcome. That consent may be withdrawn at any time. Nothing in this process will be binding, it will be purely advisory.--Abd (talk) 17:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment

Hopefully, you will be seeing, here, the application of my organizational concepts as applied to the otherwise excellent Wikipedia process. It's an experiment, the next step in WP:Delegable proxy, and a special proxy table will be set up. Proxies do not vote on behalf of others, in this process, but they are used to estimate broad consensus from the participation of only a few. There is no proof that this will work; however, it is designed to minimize community costs, and should be harmless at worst. There are many natural objections to Delegable proxy, and my extensive work with it, over many years, has shown that not only does it take about a year after exposure to the ideas for the majority of people to even realize that it could work, and that it could solve problems otherwise considered to be hopeless, but, more than that, in the absence of functioning examples, even people who think it might work still have little hope that it could overcome all those objections. Thus it's extraordinarily difficult, even in situations crying for this kind of solution, to even motivate people to try it. Hence, this effort, where I need the results of such a process, handled in my user space, where I have substantial authority and control over it. I have an issue where I need advice that truly represents the community. I have a right to request that advice. I do not need, merely, the advice of individuals, I've been given plenty of that, but readers should realize that this advice is contradictory. And the unresolved issue is consensus. Almost all advice has stated that rough consensus is that I harassed. Note, not necessarily that I actually harassed, but that the community of all those who have expressed an opinion believes, roughly, that I harassed.

Some of the advice, including the most cogent of it, expresses the opinion that I was right, but that they won't allow me to do what I did. The they ranges from an oligarchy of editors who might feel challenged by my activities, all the way up to ArbComm itself, for I have email from at least one experienced and active administrator who seems to feel that getting a good decision out of ArbComm on these matters would be hopeless. Thus there are very important issues at stake. Is Wikipedia as far gone as some of the advice would indicate? Or is it merely that deficiencies in the structure cause bad decisions to be made with no reasonable possibility of non-disruptive review? (Setting aside the simple answer: I harassed, and that's it, and it's only about me.) The first possibility would indicate my direction: bail out, and do something more useful. The second, however, leaves open the possibility that it can be fixed, if my ideas point to a solution, or, even more possible, that my ideas would point to and discover a process which could develop solutions. Thus this could be far more important than a determination in just this incident. It could affect the future of Wikipedia, in a very positive way. All participation, initially, is welcome. Yes, this means you, Jehochman, and S. Dean Jameson, and all others, including, in fact, banned users, who may participate by email to me (and I will then filter their contributions to ensure that they are proper). I want this to be as broadly representative as possible, and anyone may participate. IP editors may participate, initially, but, if necessary to prevent disruption, the pages may be semiprotected, in which case IP editors would have to use email to participate. I'd prefer, though, that editors be registered and thus identified.

I wish to thank Xenocidic for making this possible by unblocking me. I need access to my user space, which I did not have as a blocked editor. And, in fact, I wish to thank Iridescent for blocking me in the first place even if I still believe it was technically improper. It's been a painful experience, but, in the end, probably the absolutely best thing that could have happened. --Abd (talk) 17:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Abd/RfC

User:Abd/RfC is a top-level page to create a standing RfC on my behavior here. The purpose of this RfC is to advise me so that I can better understand the community in its complaints about my behavior, as well as find confirmation of my work where justified. As this is a process intended to advise me, I will properly control it and may freely revert without limit on these pages, or refactor and reformat edits from others; however, any editor who wishes to retract comments made here may do so. Participation is invited from all editors. Because of vandalism, it was necessary to semprotect these pages, so a page has been set up for the use of IP and newly-registered editors, User:Abd/RfC/IP. Content on these pages may be deleted frequently, but may be recovered from history. See the main RfC page for some descriptions of the process. The first specific RfC is at User:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block, which will examine the events leading up to my being blocked on August 11, 2008. There are a few editors whom I have banned from my Talk pages; however, provided that their edits to the RfC pages remain nondisruptive, they may edit those pages; I will warn such editors if I find it necessary to retract this permission. Welcome! --Abd (talk) 03:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The RfC is open for preliminary comment. See User:Abd/RfC and the specific RfC at User:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block. Notices will be given of this RfC to all those who commented on my Talk page after I was warned for various offenses on August 11, until yesterday. There is a list of those to be notified and a draft notice at User talk:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block. --Abd (talk) 18:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Helping WW moving forward.

This is in response to this, [1].and also the next edit, apparently. note added by Abd (talk)

I may be a new editor, Abd, but I am not young and I understand the politics of these situations. While I support you in general, in this circumstance I would ask you to refrain from any further recounting of past discussions within the context of any future WW threads, especially with respect to your block and the propriety thereof. Anywone following along will already know those things as they have been rehashed to death and beyond at this point. IMHO they will only serve to bias others even further against WW and/or cause those who are arrayed against her to become even further entrenched in their positions, whether that reaction is justified or not. Neither of these will serve to assist WW in terms of arriving at a fair and equitable result, IMHO.

I believe that the best course forward is to come to a firm decision one way or the other on the status and/or continuation of the DYK ban against her and then proceed accordingly, which is why I have proposed what I did to User:Carcharoth and User:Fritzpoll. Please try to focus on how to move things forward rather than continuing to recount the past in those discussions. --GoRight (talk) 19:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Puzzled. My block is intimately involved with what happened with Fritzpoll and Wilhelmina Will. I've now made a post to the Editing restriction Talk page. Doesn't mention Wilhelmina Will, but only the underlying WP process principles that, when I challenged a certain interpretation of them, I was widely warned. I wasn't blocked for that, but, in fact, the blocking admin considered that prior warning to be warning against the blockable behavior, even though it was quite different. And I've seen this before. Editor takes legitimate action that results in a significant number of administrators yelling at editor, because they strongly disagree or consider it a problem. Editor then is subject to massive incivility, imputations of bad motive, and every action becomes suspect. Editor then makes some mistake, or something different that is considered blockable. Editor is blocked, giving the latter reason, but the earlier warnings are considered to have been warnings against the later behavior.

GoRight, I'm challenging the block. It can be expected to cause some disruption, but this process, what happened to me, has happened to many other editors, and it is causing ongoing damage. I've figured out, I think, how to resolve this with minimal disruption, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are, nevertheless, efforts to shut it down. I'm taking your comment as a friendly warning that it could be damaging if I comment further about the Fritzpoll/Wilhelmina Will stuation, in this process; however, my comment took place on Carcharoth's Talk page, so I'm more concerned about his opinion, since he has been agreed upon, by me and by Fritzpoll, as the mediator. Your involvement is also, of course, welcome, and I appreciate all the work you have done, it has been very helpful, in spite of some of the flak aimed at you. There are some critical questions here, involving the efficiency of Wikipedia process, with a suggested possible -- and very clear and simple -- resolution that could, if accepted, as a side-effect, resolve the Wilhelmina Will question very quickly. If it doesn't, then whatever process already exists would remain in place, nothing has been lost. I am not -- at all -- trying to address the question of my block outside my Talk space, I may mention it occasionally in what will be the very few edits I make to Wikipedia space. And I'll do that with increasing caution, since, if you took offense to what I wrote, others, more hostile, probably would as well, though I really don't understand that. --Abd (talk) 20:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

All I am asking is that you try to decouple the threads related to your block (and any references to the events that lead up to it) from the on-going threads related directly resolving WW's situation. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't pursue whatever you want to pursue, but please do it in a separate thread from the ones being used to directly discuss the DYK topic ban on WW. I have no problem with you making cross references to the WW threads in your block related threads, but please try to not intermingle these two discussions. Obviously this is just my request, you can do as you feel is best, but I think both discussions will benefit from being conducted in separate and distinct threads at this point. Right now I am mostly focused on trying to get things out of the current limbo that they are in w.r.t. WW. Does that make sense?

And I am not saying that I took offense to what you wrote, although others might, I just don't think that any more retrospection is required get the DYK ban out of limbo one way or the other. Let us all just stick to the crisp facts at this point, and let us move forward on that topic as I believe that everyone already knows the details of the events that have brought us to where we are. --GoRight (talk) 01:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

This is long, but (1) the issues are important, I believe, and (2) I don't have time to boil it down, which would take me far longer than for you to skim it or read it more carefully, no obligation at all. It covers more than the WW stuff. It describes what I'm about.

Because the block is fresh, and because I gained a lot of insight from it, it's coming up fairly frequently. You are right, though, that it's not related. Even I'd done everything they claimed, even if I'd dumped a boatload of shit on the administrator involved, it wouldn't be relevant to the propriety of the topic ban for this girl. But I'll make some comments about what I've seen of the latter:

A decision to ban others from nominating her articles would be quite problematic. Essentially, it would be a ban on users who aren't involved, who have committed no offenses, and who have had no notice of the discussion, without any necessity. It would be putting DYK on a special article probation, covering all editors, and without notice to DYK. The suggestion that other editors be banned from making such nominations found no support when it was originally raised by Blechnic at AN/I, in protest over my very mention of the idea, or maybe after I made the first nomination. It found no support. In the later discussion at AN, there was no support for banning this practice, but some editors gave advice about how to do it. Given that DYK is filled with really bad nominations, that the DYK process easily handles them -- not perfectly, but, remember, the only really dangerous thing that was asserted was copyvio, the rest of it simply would be a badly written article. Like, in fact, most of our 2.5 million articles. Many of who have copyvio and need some attention.

But I haven't seen any cogent reason for the ban, and it's a shame that FP didn't simply recuse himself, there were grounds for this, or look again at the evidence and reconsider. It would have been, for example, cleaner if he had said, "I agree that the ban was improper, but I can't support changing a community decision." We would then have had a pure process problem, and we'd have sought advice on that problem, specifically, and jointly. But, in fact, he seemed, at the time, to continue to consider the ban appropriate, though he wasn't ever able, as far as I saw, to state the evidence on which it was based. At one point, though, he hinted at it. He had seen, at some point, a situation where she made what he saw as clumsy and possibly inadequate efforts to reword to avoid copyvio, and so he had this in his mind. Further, this problem became conflated with a separate problem: she had apparently misunderstood a source in rewording it to avoid copyvio. But this is an accuracy problem, and Wikipedia is fully of inaccuracy problems, and, it appears, those inaccuracies have mostly been discovered and fixed quickly. I'm concerned that one user, you are in touch with him, has said, pretty much, that he'll oppose any nominations of hers in a certain field. That's quite improper. Rather, what would be proper would be to arrange for someone who knows the field to review the article. We should never discriminate against content based on whom it comes from, beyond understanding that we may pay some special attention to content from someone with a history of error. I do not know if she's made enough errors in that field to warrant that special attention, I suspect that the problem was exaggerated, but it's possible not.

Essentially, whatever real problems there are, a topic ban isn't a solution. If she were actually doing copyvio, warning and block would be appropriate, not a DYK ban. If it is article accuracy, DYK is likely to fix the problem, not make it worse. If it is edit warring, again: warning and block. If it is making an inappropriate edit to increase the article to 1500 words, as she apparently did -- once -- the problem, actually, may be over-rigid DYK standards. Isn't it interesting that an article eligible for a DYK fact at 1500 words, wouldn't be at 1490? Particularly if the removal of 10 words made the article better? In fact, though, if I'm correct, the standard isn't rigid, there merely is a general presumption that an article shouldn't be less than 1500 words. I'd think that she could write at DYK, "This article was at 1500 words, but an editor figured out how to make it better at 1490." and, my guess is that the length wouldn't be a reason for decline. They aren't stupid!

And, of course, the errors she made weren't repeated. The incivility was minor, especially when compared to incivility toward her from the editor she supposedly was uncivil to. And it wasn't repeated. She then, when confronted about this incivility later, lied about it. It had been in leetspeak, referring to an editor as "revolting," and she, either embarrassed or trying to deflect it, claimed that it was her own code that meant something else, which was preposterous. Revolted, though, is, I'm sure, exactly how she felt, strong aversion. Seeing what ensued, and I haven't reviewed the earlier history, I'd say her reaction was, quite simply, no wonder. She had put in a year of heavy effort, you've reviewed some of it, it's voluminous, and well above the norm for articles, in my opinion. And then this editor, based on a few narrow interactions, actually speculated that her efforts were part of a plot to destroy Wikipedia, by vandalism, i.e., by planting errors and copyvio in articles. He called her entire corpus of work "crap," at the last AN/I report he filed -- over my nomination on her behalf, which, by the way, he made a complaint about her, not about me, when she had done nothing. She didn't ask me to nominate. Then, I think it was when someone pointed out that was uncivil, he used strike-out, and replaced it with "vandalism." As if that were an improvement? Yet the community listened to him about her, and assumed, literally, stating it, some of them, that they ahd no reason to suspect that what he was saying was a "lie." It wasn't a lie, not in the facts he reported, unless extrapolating from a single incident to a pattern is a "lie." It can be, but it's also a very common error. "She was uncivil" becomes "She is uncivil to editors," implying repeated incidents. "She reverted an edit in order to restore 1500 words" becomes "She reverts edits that improve the article in order to make it qualify," etc. And we don't ban or block for errors except for errors that are repeated after warning. Some of those voting did look at the evidence that was given, the single incidents. And, of course, they found them true. This is actually an old debate trick.... You make a general statement based on a specific incident, "For example, ...." even if that is the only example. It can be very effective. The person checks out what you say, and finds it true, and then they assume that what seems like a minor extension of it is likely also true. There were editors at the AN report that noted that a single incident wasn't enough, and they asked for more evidence.

What happened? Well, there was no response. And those editors, waiting for a response, didn't vote. It's an example of how such a vote can become distorted, quite easily. And that's why it is crucial to have closing admins, and to have them take responsibility for ensuring that all the arguments and relevant evidence is considered, and that a result is in accordance with policy and guidelines. We don't make decisions, in theory, based on !votes, and that is all that there was. As you have confirmed, the biggie, what Fritzpoll asserted, when I asked, was the main reason for the ban, the copyvio evidence, was nonexistent, in effect, what tiny amount there was, was very old, and should could have created a thousand articles, back then, with copy vio, only now discovered, and as long as it hadn't continued, the most she'd get would be a warning: Don't do that again, or you will be blocked.

You are concerned primarily with WW, and I've been concerned there, too, but think that we managed to avert the most serious damage, a permanent departure from the project, which was quite likely, I'd say, without my intervention, by encouraging others to nominate her articles. That leaves the really bad understanding of policy and practice that led to this difficulty, and which, I believe, leads to many such poor decisions, with great ongoing damage. We don't see most of it, most of it never rises to the attention of someone with time and motivation to correct it. I see a great deal, and I only have so much time, I have to let most of it slide. So I'm working on improving the process, so this happens less often, and so that it is more easily correctable.

And, right now, I'm focusing mostly, in an ongoing way, on aspects of my block. Not to reverse the block, but to explore the process and to test a solution. Right here. Minimally disruptive. And totally out-of-the-box, not what anyone would expect. If it works, i.e., if it helps find a genuine, deliberative consensus, which is, of course, speculative, it could fix a lot of things that are currently broken, with nobody understanding how to fix them. It's designed to be minimally disruptive, far less disruptive than my going to, say, ArbComm or even a user RfC (which are sometimes self-created). Since I'm asking for advice for myself, so that I can understand the block, so that I can avoid repeating the behavior, it is totally legitimate that I guide and control the process, here in my Talk. Nothing here binds anyone. I won't permit personal attack, etc., beyond the criticism that NPA allows.

If this works, it could point to a solution that could lead to the unblock of a fair number of editors, who have been unwilling to agree not to behave as they behaved before, so the community wouldn't agree to unblock them, because they, quite rightly, feared that the behavior were repeated. Some of these blocked editors may be irredeemable, but others might accept advice if it were created through a process that they control. I do this with my kids, who can dig in their heels if I try to control them and demand that they reform their behavior. But if I allow them and facilitate their finding answers for themselves, they can, and do, change their behavior. And it comes from them. And it is far more likely to stick, than behaviors based on some grudging acceptance or threat of some loss or humiliation.

And then, it becomes possible to make block more routine, we could start blocking for less egregious offenses, particularly if such blocks didn't become a black mark against the editor. Incivility, as you well know, is rampant, but only some incivility gets sanctioned, and often it isn't the worst in a situation. Block isn't necessary for incivility, necessarily, warning is. But if a warning isn't backed by a block if it is necessary, it can be less effective. The block is necessary for protection, when we think that incivility is likely to be repeated. This self-directed RfC in the user's own space, where the user -- I contend, it is not fully established -- can control it, can exclude some, for example -- could lead to fewer blocks, without becoming inefficient. It wouldn't be an emergency process, like AN/I.

"You have been accused of blah blah, and you appear to have repeated it after a first warning. You are now under a topic ban, you may not edit outside your user space until you have resolved this issue and either a consensus has been found that your behavior is within proper limits, or you have agreed not to repeat the behavior. You are not blocked, you may edit outside your user space if you find it essential for the project, but your edits may be examined closely and if any administrator finds that you have repeated blah blah, you may be immediately blocked without further warning. Please consider this carefully, and if you need any assistance, you may drop me a note on my Talk, this will not be considered a violation of this topic ban, and you may also .... (list of exceptions to ban, such as proper attempts to obtain assistance, etc. or ... possibly, noncontroversial edits in article space, it would depend on the nature of the offense.) Essentially, this would provide an editor with an opportunity to review the behavior and either find a determination that the behavior was, indeed, contrary to guidelines and improper, or that it was proper, assuming the editor could find at least one other editor to agree. And then, with this, they could proceed through normal channels to remedy it. Two is the minimum, and it would be difficult with only two. We'll see what happens with my own process here. My goal is to attract as much participation as possible, but the design is such that "participation" simply means, "signs up as interesting in being informed," which does not mean that the editor has to read tomes of evidence and analysis. Most participants, in the extended sense, won't do much of anything. They may do less than many participants at AN/I do, though that isn't much participation!

The discussion that is the basis for the claim of some admins that there was a consensus, for example, that I harassed Fritzpoll, was very limited, handled under emergency conditions, with no patient collection and analysis of evidence, as ultimately happened with your user RfC. I don't see any evidence that I harassed Fritzpoll, I did much, much less than you did with Connolley, for example. Setting aside the sock puppet mess, and I was seriously warned, by more than one admin, before that came up, and I think I would have been blocked anyway, without the sock puppet issues, I criticized his action, not tendentiously, as those things go, on his Talk and my Talk, and very little elsewhere. I was not uncivil about that. There was one edit that was, essentially, called "arrogant," which isn't grounds for a block. Basically, my offense was that I told him it was important. At that point I did not realize how prevalent was the misunderstanding of our procedures was among admins, it has truly shocked me, because our basic procedure is brilliant. But I don't know that it is documented anywhere! This procedure is why Wikipedia works much better than many would expect. Could it be that it hasn't been understood? And that some of the major problems are because of this? I don't know how far this goes. But, in any case, harassment it was not. Harassment implies contact continued after a request to stop. Fritzpoll could have, at any time, said, stop! enough! I don't want to read your writing on my Talk. But I can't, it's impossible, harass him on my own Talk page. And that is where that "arrogance" took place, as I recall.

So, given that I see it this way, suppose I'm wrong. How am I going to figure this out? I imagine that I see the situation better than most who have commented. I know exactly how experienced facilitators in organizations that value consensus would handle it. And we don't do that, normally. So I'm going to do it, here. We, i.e., myself and whoever chooses to participate, will, in detail, compile and review the evidence and its exact implications. As an example, there is a list of edits that I made, supposedly attacking Fritzpoll, given by the blocking admin as the reason for my block. I look at the first one. It was a supportive post I made to Fritzpoll's talk page, after he announced his retirement, encouraging him to come back, that there was no risk to his admin bit from me, etc. It is totally beyond me how this could be considered an attack.

Now, here is what happens. If I take each piece of evidence, and show this, it will be said, "Look, wikilawyer you. Sure, there is a problem with that piece of evidence, but aren't you listening to the community? There is a consensus that you harassed Fritzpoll! You are wasting your time and ours, and that you can't accept the consensus is simply more proof that you don't belong here!" The only way to move beyond this is to develop, at least, a local consensus to the contrary. (Or an alternate outcome, where I realize that, by gosh, while I may have intended those words one way, they were reasonably interpreted in another, and I'd better apologize immediately!). With that local consensus, there are then grounds and support for asking for broader review, whether it be with an RfC or even ArbComm, it depends on the issues involved. I need to know how to proceed, and I'm asking for advice and support that is more solidly based than simply telling me the obvious, which many of my friends have done. --Abd (talk) 04:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Abd: are there any articles that interest you, that could use some improving? That would be my sincere suggestion. Forget about the above for a while. Jonathunder (talk) 20:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Does what I wrote make sense to you, Jonathunder? If not, maybe I'd do no better with articles. I do have some article work to do, and my voluntary ban does allow that, but I'm quite busy, in fact, and must devote my time to where I think it most productive. Instead of creating articles, I'm working on facilitating writers and editors who create articles. It's quite as difficult as creating articles, and when this work is not done, we lose editors. I have some expertise in what I'm doing, and years of experience. I've also been a professional editor, a bit, and a writer, a bit. In any case, I see what I'm to do. Now, what I'm to do is to set up a device where good editors like yourself can advise me, very specifically, and very efficiently. Editors have been telling me what you just did for quite some time. Is it that I don't get it, or that I see something better to do? How can I find out? Engaging me here, on this page, as you did, out of the blue -- I don't know you at all -- isn't terribly useful. It's not clear to me that the advice has (1) my interests at heart, and (2) the long-term interests of Wikipedia at heart; ah, yes, I trust your intentions, you wrote what you wrote in good faith. But we need more than good intentions. We need insight, and patience, and compassion. We blame editors and writers, reject them, define them as vandals (that was done with Wilhelmina Will, it was among the last comments of Blechnic) or dangerous loose cannons with each move doing more damage than building the project (Carol Spears). Every time we reject or drive away an editor who might have become a productive member of the community, we lessen what the project can become, and we build, in the world from which we draw editors, reservoirs of poison. Instead of creating articles, I'm creating, so to speak, editors and writers who will create articles -- or retaining them.

If I'm doing something wrong, and you actually care, instead of merely dropping by to toss me some discouragement about what I want to do, which I doubt you understand, show me that I'm wrong and that what I want to do is not good. Show me that I actually was doing harm, that I nearly drove away an administrator, as claimed, that I harassed a user, something which horrifies me when I see it happening to others. Am I doing that, have I done that? If so, definitely, I need to know. And I might need a long wikibreak, maybe a permanent one.

I have only about 2000 edits in article and article talk space. If I'm damaging the project as has been claimed, then I shouldn't be editing here, at least not until I agree to stay away from policy and procedure and just cultivate articles, as intellectuals in the Cultural Revolution in China were sent to the countryside to work as peasants for their education and rehabilitation. Many of them died there, it's not what they were suited for or adapted to. I have article work to do, and I'll do some of it, noncontroversial work. I'll help maintain articles where I already have some knowledge of the subject, particularly where I'm an expert, whether professionally or amateur. But I think I know what I'm supposed to be doing here, and I'm doing it, with great caution.

So thanks for sharing. Why don't you stick around and help me figure it out? I assure you I'll listen carefully to whatever your contribute. But I'd warn you. Prolonged exposure to my ideas has been known to have a destabilizing effect on some people, sometimes in a good way, sometimes not. It's as if my insanity is contagious. People start seeing what I see, sharing my vision. It's your choice. --Abd (talk) 00:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, my comment wasn't quite out of the blue: I have posted here before, and was one of the admins who supported your unblocking. I did that because I think you can be an asset to the project. And I do appreciate the support you gave to WW. I was hoping, now that you are unblocked, that you will be able to help on mainspace articles of interest to you. Regards. Jonathunder (talk) 15:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again, and I might have been a bit abrupt with you. My primary interest with Wikipedia is related to what excited me about the project years ago, the potential of this kind of community. When, last year, I finally became active here, and learned more about the policies and guidelines, they made complete sense to me, it is as if half of the vision I've hand and been working on for more than twenty years had been realized already. Then I started to compare the guidelines and policies with actual practice. It's not easy to do that, there is so much traffic. The only way to do it was to get involved in specific situations, to study them, to collect the evidence, make proposals, and see what happens. My study of organizational structures and my experience with them made it quite unsurprising to me that Wikipedia is dysfunctional in certain ways. If not for a resource that has remained available to us, the damage would have become so obvious and so bad that major breakdown would have already occurred: that resource is new editors. In smaller communities, an organization can run out of that resource very quickly, so if it burns out participants, it will quickly fail. Here, we just sail on; if somebody drops off the boat or is pushed off, no problem. There are always more. It's really a kind of pyramid scheme. Eventually it will hit resource limits. And, I'm predicting, at that point the problems will rapidly mushroom, as there is an increasing burden on those who are left. Admins are already, to many of them, damaged by dealing with hordes of vandals and POV-pushers, and, without even realizing it, too often, become cynical and far to ready to act as if an editor is an enemy of the project.

I appreciate your support, but I'm trying to make your job easier. Much easier. It can be done, but how it is done is another question. Very few editors, as far as I can see, are really looking at the problem. They will look at this piece or that piece, whenever the problems become sufficiently irritating. What happened to Wilhelmina Will can happen, and has happened, to many others. Now, as it happens, some very serious charges were made against me in the process leading up to my block, and after. It is ironic; the first charge, what I was first warned about, was essentially harassment. I had (1) questioned the close of the ban, (2) questioned the appropriateness of an administrators actions based on his assumption that there was a ban in place, (3) and ask him for support for the decision, since it appeared to be missing from the original process. As part of this, I suggested, in one post in my Talk space that he was free to ignore, it couldn't have been used against him, that this was important, that his decisions could affect his administrative future. I've seen harassment. To me, this seems far, far short of it, and, in fact, it wasn't harassment at all. Now, that it was called harassment wasn't a surprise to me. I've seen people react to clear and civil criticism, many times, as if it were harassment. If I had gone all over the project, confronting him with my opinions, that could have risen to the level of harassment. But I didn't. The matter came to a head at AN. Did I take him to AN? No, I was following WP:DR, by the book, and it's an excellent book. He went to AN, in a manner that could produce a prejudiced result, same as the first AN/I discussion. So I was obligated to respond. And that was considered harassment. Perhaps someone should read WP:HARASS.

And I was blocked for this. (the copyvio thing is a complication, but I was being warned that I'd be blocked even before that came up, it was simply a provocation from a banned editor, who has found, in the past, that he can evade his ban to do this and nobody really does anything about it. Why? Because he is a voice for a substantial segment of the administrative community, which has come to think like him.) This gives me a wedge, so to speak; it could be used for further divisive process. But I want to show that there is a different way to approach questions like this, a way that is not only easier, but far less disruptive. We already know how to do it without the additional tools I'll be proposing and working out: RfC and RfAr, the latter being, usually, better. But also requiring way too much effort. We do not need to go to RfC and RfAr to work out problems that can be resolved by two people having a civil discussion, with assumptions of good faith on both sides. The question is, how to have that civil discussion. Most editors don't have time for it! This is the problem that I'm going to attempt to solve, in my user space.

I'm setting up a procedure so that I can be advised as to what I did and how to respond to it. I want, first of all, advice about what I did. Did I harass the administrator in question? If so, then the block was fully legitimate, and my only legitimate response would be to apologize to everyone involved for the harassment and for wasting their time. If not, however, if a sober examination comes up with a conclusion, likely to be sustained if taken back to the community, that I did not harass, there remains the question of what I should do about it, so I'll need advice regarding "remedies." Could I clear my name and record without creating a new disruption? And I think that it can be done. Notice that after the groundwork was laid, the lifting of the topic ban for Wilhelmina Will was relatively non-disruptive, and it could have been even less so, quite simply, probably in another day or two. I'm trying to set up, using my own situation as an example, a generic solution that could work elsewhere. There is actually a lot known about dispute resolution, there are professionals who do it very well, but we haven't been taking advantage of this knowledge, and typically tend to deal with problems by identifying the bad guy and getting rid of him or her. Or making it so unpleasant for them to continue here that they leave.

And, sure, I'll be doing some articles. But that's not why I'm here, really. I'm here to help others to create and maintain articles, in a sustainable way, that won't eventually burn them out. If I'm successful in this, the long-term effect on the project will greatly exceed anything I could personally accomplish. --Abd (talk) 17:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Common Practice?

Is it common practice to create a page like User:GoRight/Community sanction in a user's own user space? --GoRight (talk) 03:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, but it would make sense. Where else would you put it? I knew there was a log somewhere, but hadn't ever seen one. Logs for ArbComm sanctions are appended to the ArbComm case where it was decided. You shouldn't touch that page, though, I'd suspect, you could comment in Talk for it. --Abd (talk) 04:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Looking at others with community sanctions this seems to be common practice. I wonder if it is common practice to change the wording from that which was !voted upon?

From my topic ban proposal:

GoRight topic-banned from William Connolley-related pages - this is not to be confused with edits regarding User:William M. Connolley.

From the editing restrictions page:

GoRight is topic-banned from William Connolley-related pages - this is not to be confused with edits regarding User:William M. Connolley.

From the community sanction page:

GoRight is topic-banned William Connolley-related pages, broadly construed. This is not to be confused with making edits concerning User: William M. Connolley.

Curious. --GoRight (talk) 04:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I've been arguing that the actual decision is made by the closing admin, not by the community. "Community ban" merely means that the community advised the process. This is apparently controversial, but Wikipedia process is seriously broken where it's interpreted that the community has made the decision, not the closing admin, it becomes far more difficult to intepret and modify a ban. And it is quite different with blocks and XfDs, where the closing admin may reverse the decision, even if the entire community !voted in one direction. The closing admin essentially becomes the community's representative for handling the decision, starting with implementing it, but also for all other aspects, until and unless the decision is appealed back to the community. So the quick place to go for an appeal is to the closing admin. Then one might try some simple process to convince the closing admin, I've been suggesting discussion with someone that the closing admin might trust to give good advice. In any case, this is an informal mediation stage, voluntary. Then appeal would go to more complex and disruptive process.

If you don't find the ban disruptive of your work, fine. The major problem I see is with this "broadly construed." But if you do find it a problem, I think there is a basis for an appeal to ArbComm, though a new RfC might be appropriate. I don't know if new facts were involved in the topic ban. If so, it's complicated. If not, it's pretty clear. I'd go for convincing the closing admin, first of all, that the consensus at AN/I was misleading, that those who had carefully considered the evidence had decided otherwise. Many of those who !voted at AN/I had a clear conflict of interest, not disclosed. I don't want to stir up trouble, but I also want you to know that you do have options. Going to ArbComm is difficult and hazardous, ArbComm could possibly decide on stronger sanctions, and there will be some opinion that it's disruptive. I'd take some time to think about it. You might decide if there are any substantial issues of fact, and prepare evidence regarding that. I've found that this often clarifies the matter for me. But it's time-consuming. --Abd (talk) 04:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

No, it wasn't the closing admin, it was User:Ncmvocalist who wrote the original language in the topic ban proposal. --GoRight (talk) 05:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd discuss it with the closing admin. That change is important, it could easily cause the ban to be wider. That log page shouldn't be any stronger than the closing statement. Admins enforcing the ban may not look at the close, they will look at the sanctions log and at that page. They may look at both. You already got advice that you should interpret it broadly, but that's for safety. The boundary should be set where it was set, and if the closer disclaims responsibility, we'll have the same situation as with WW: a ban without any intelligent maintenance. Not good. And what happens then? Most likely, further disruptive process, as you seek to overturn a too-restrictive ban or recover from an over-eager block based on this "broadly interpreted" thing. If you have any doubts about specific application, specific questions to the closing admin should protect you, if you follow the advice. And if you find that too restrictive, then your recourse will be similar to what is happening with WW's ban, plus, of course, there is more difficult recourse beyond that. --Abd (talk) 05:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I was under the mistaken impression that User:Ncmvocalist was an administrator, but User:Wizardman who closed the WP:ANI discussion indicates that he is not. Is there a way to tell who is an administrator and who is not?

If User:Ncmvocalist is not an administrator I definitely consider his taking it upon himself to close the RfC and place a Community sanction page in my user space to be harassment on his part, especially since he is not a neutral party here given that he participated in the RfC AND he is the one to create the topic ban proposal against me. Anyway, User:Wizardman indicates that he will look into it. Any thoughts? --GoRight (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There are two simple ways to check whether someone is an administrator. First: When you go to his user page, then an administrator should have a small Wikipedia globe in the upper right corner. Wizardman has such a globe on his user page; but Ncmvocalist doesn't. Second: When someone is an administrator, then he should be listed in the list of administrators. Markus Schulze 13:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the globe is reliable. For example, see User:Sarcasticidealist. Administrator, in the admin category, I know he's an administrator. No globe.--Abd (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --GoRight (talk) 20:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I hadn't checked. Theoretically, non-admins have the same rights as admins, but don't have the tools. Generally, though, consensus has come to limit closes that require the use of tools to administrators. If a close, for example, requires a block or enforcement of a ban though blocks, it's been considered proper for an admin to close. Anyone can revert a close, though. It should never be an involved editor unless there is no objection. Ncmvocalist definitely should not have closed the RfC, even if he had been an administrator, because he was involved. It's like voting in an AfD and then closing it, so if anyone wants to reopen it, they could, by reverting the close. Don't do it merely because it was "wrong." I'd recommend that it not be GoRight, though. That RfC doesn't hurt you, it helps you, as it is!

However, I wouldn't rush to consider it harassment. Just a mistake. Now, Wizardman closed the topic ban, and he is the one, then, to go to, in the theory of Wikipedia practice that I've been writing about, for any clarification regarding the ban. Assume that he is reasonable, and, for sure, treat him civilly and with respect. If he doesn't want to hear it, that avenue is then closed, and, if you want to challenge the ban or his interpretation of it, the next step would be the intervention, preferably of another admin, to intervene as a mediator, or as your advoctate, either one. One step at a time, unless there is an emergency, which there isn't, as far as I can see. As to the log information in your user space, any editor could change that to reflect Wizardman's close. Or anything, for that matter, such as to turn it into a barnstar, but I wouldn't recommend it!

Given that a topic ban re WMC is reasonable for you, and you were quite prepared to accept it, the only immediate question is scope, so, if you have questions about scope, ask Wizardman. It's best if it be about a specific example. You could also ask, if it turns out that the ban is a problem for you, what you could do to lift the ban, such as accept a mentor, etc. I wouldn't think, though, that it would be worth the trouble for a narrow ban, maybe if the interpretation is broad.--Abd (talk) 13:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The way to verify any "rights" a user has is by looking them up in the list of users. Click "special pages" (should be to your left), and then find and click on "users". That should take you to Special:ListUsers. Then enter the name. Set the limit to 1 to show just one person. For example: Wizardman, Ncmvocalist, me, you. Special:ListGroupRights explains the various rights. The genuine list of all admins is here. Bureaucrats. Checkusers. Oversighters. Founder. And so on. Carcharoth (talk) 13:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --GoRight (talk) 20:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism of my user pages by banned User:Fredrick day, need semiprotection of user pages.

I've been creating the pages for a self-RfC, under my control, see User:Abd/RfC, plus I created some subarchive pages to try to give some organization to the total mess that descended here Aug 11. In any case, big surprise, Fredrick day IP showed up and started vandalizing. I've been inviting him to participate in this process (under appropriate restrictions), but it seems he's pretty determined to toss shit instead of being included; however, maybe he'll change his mind. Here is what he's been doing, see Special:Contributions/87.114.131.159. Not a lot of point in wasting time blocking the IP, he'll just boot the modem. I'll go to RfP if someone doesn't see this and just do it, but:

Please semiprotect indef, if not already protected, with talk pages: User talk:Abd/Archive 1
User talk:Abd/Archive 2
User talk:Abd/Archive 3
User talk:Abd/Archive 4
User talk:Abd/Archive 5
User talk:Abd/Archive 6
User talk:Abd/Archive 6/Before flap
User talk:Abd/Archive 6/Warnings before block
User talk:Abd/Archive 6/Blocked
User:Abd/RfC
User:Abd/RfC/Proxy Table
User:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block
User:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block/Evidence

That should be all I need for a while, thanks to any admin who notices this and does it.

 Done –xeno (talk) 02:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Appreciated. Too bad it was necessary. I'm setting up a page for IP editor input at User:Abd/RfC/IP, for my RfC process, or User talk:Abd/IP for my Talk. IP and newly-registered editors may make comments on those pages. Beware, they might be a little raunchy, I have some "friends" with potty mouths. Then again, I used to read unmoderated Usenet groups. But I'll transfer legitimate edits there to the appropriate place; generally, all posts there may be deleted quickly, those pages aren't to be used for discussion, I may review in History.

It may be necessary to protect the Talk pages connected with the RfC as well. Not an emergency, but Fredrick day has acted up there a bit as well. Maybe he'll decide to do something useful. He's been behaving like I'm the Black Death, perhaps he might be willing to explain why he thinks that. Never can tell, somebody might learn something. I can delete anything truly disruptive, and so can anyone else. In fact, wouldn't it be interesting to set up a bot to delete contributions to a defined set of pages from a specific IP range? Or, indeed, all IP contributions? This would allow IP editors to contribute, but only if "seconded" by a registered user who brings it back in. --Abd (talk) 12:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

In case you are curious

Since there were quite a few admins telling me various things, in warnings, during my block, and a little bit after it, from I've not been careful enough, to I harassed a certain admin, to I've been driving editors away from the project and don't care, to I'm a total troll and waste of time and should create some nice articles for a change, to I should simply be banned, and I think that the arguments they give, when they bother to give arguments, are mostly a "steaming pile," to quote Hesperian (but, note, some criticism in this whole affair has clearly been legitimate), I really need to sort it out. What did I actually do? Was it blockworthy, etc.? Because if even half of what's been tossed at me is appropriate, I've got major problems and possibly shouldn't be editing here at all.

Since much of my purpose here is to explore and suggest improvements to Wikipedia structure, which I think is already truly excellent, but which has been unable to meet the challenges of scale by what may be truly minor deficiencies, needing only some small teaks, why not use this opportunity to test the ideas? Instead of creating some real RfC elsewhere, either a self-created RfC at WP:RfC-- I think what I'm doing will be better than that for these purposes -- or, alternatively going after the ... bad words thought of but not seriously, and given what has come down, maybe I better not disclose what I think even in jest! ... nice administrators who have been so kind as to give me their unsolicited opinions, i.e, going after them with process on AN or AN/I or RfCs or RfAr, which can be extraordinarily disruptive, why not just run an RfC in my own user space, the purpose being to advise me how to proceed. Nobody has to read it or participate who doesn't want to. The Delegable proxy table that is set up will allow people who have interest in helping me to understand my problems, but who don't have the time, to simply name someone whom they consider as likely to give me good advice, similar or better to what they would themselves provide. It should take a minute to add a proxy name to User:Abd/RfC/Proxy Table. Don't worry if the proxy isn't participating yet, I'll take steps later to try to get wider participation by looking at any trusted or previously involved users who haven't shown up here or named a proxy. I'll actively solicit participation from anyone who has posted to my Talk page preceding and during my block. I want the advice that was yelled at me in the heat of the moment, with edits coming to my Talk so fast that I'd have to try two or three times to get through the edit conflicts, to come in a far more careful, sober, deliberative environment. Because the purpose is to advise me, I control that environment, presumably, I.e., I should be able to ask users to "leave." And to revert not only vandalism, but any content there that I consider disruptive. Since I really want to know, however, I'm not gong to use this to simply remove or deflect criticism, my wikifuture depends on getting the best possible advice, and the best advice sometimes come from "enemies." They will tell us things that our friends may not.

And then, of course, if this works, there could be wider implications. We try to modify editor behavior, too often, by threatening them. I have children. It doesn't work, they become increasingly rebellious, they merely resent threats and demands and, obviously, other forms of abuse. The respond to respect and to careful and supportive exploration of their behavior. My youngest daughter was born in a village four hours by donkey trail from the nearest dirt road. It was a mud road when I visited the area, going to the village was out of the question, I met her grandparents in the nearest town. My daughter had gone to a "care center" -- read orphanage -- in Addis Ababa for six months when we adopted her at three. Very sweet. And tough as nails, really, utterly and totally resistant to any sort of attempt to deprive her of the right to make her own choices, unless she permits it. If I try to force her to do something, she digs in her heels and won't budge. If I lose my temper and even touch her when I'm angry, that's it. She won't listen to me for a long time. So: how can we educate and help misbehaving editors instead of blaming them and warning them; warnings are pretty difficult to see as friendly, they often are far more like a threat, and, too often, they are accompanied by blame or incivility. And how can we do this efficiently?

This process is designed so I can trust it. Makes sense, after all, it's for my advice. That would apply to any user who has, in the opinion of some members of the community, violated guidelines or policies, but who thinks this unfair or wrong or stupid or whatever. And then, here in my own user space, I cannot predict what will happen: it could range from getting sufficient information for me to realize what an idiot I've been, to finding it confirmed that a mistake was made, and, if there is significant participation here, and thus a preliminary consensus, it could become far less disruptive to try to get any injustice corrected. Evidence already in place and agreed upon by at least a few editors. Arguments listed and examined carefully. Conclusions proposed and consensus estimated (that's where delegable proxy comes in. It's not used for voting, as such, it's used to analyze a vote and try to compensate for participation bias so that it is more likely to predict successfully what will happen if a decision is reviewed by a larger community, without having to actually do that, most of the time.) For example, many admins seem to think I'm basically a waste of time. All of them together could name, directly or indirectly, a single proxy, doesn't have to be an admin, simply an editor they would trust to represent, more or less, the way they feel about me, and to, first of all, help me understand their point of view, and, secondly, should it happen -- is it possible? -- that some mistake was made when I was blocked, to go back to those who trusted them and say, uh, I looked at the evidence and it seems he was right, or at least this was reasonable. Or not. I have no fixed idea about what will happen, I just know that this is an idea that is worth trying. Sarsaparilla/Absidy/etc., sacrificed his account trying to suggest this (and in frustration when it was misunderstood), and, here in my user space, it is clearly harmless. It's only for my advice, and nobody needs to lift a finger that doesn't want to.

The RfC is intended to be a standing resource for me, so the proxy table will be used to help me understand, from just a few comments, later, should there be problems again, what warnings truly represent the community, and what warnings are simply the opinions of a minority, perhaps threatened in some way by my ideas, or misunderstanding what I do, following superficial impressions, trusting rumors and unsubstantiated allegations, the kinds of things that, too often, cause AN/I to come up with bad decisions, as shown by later analysis, such as the topic ban that created this whole fuss, which turns out to have had totally insufficient evidence at hand -- or discoverable later -- to justify such a response. People who didn't check the evidence voted, those noting the absence of evidence asked for it, it was not provided, so they didn't vote! And the topic died and was archived, without a close, but most !votes had been for a ban, so ... it was later enforced, without anyone actually taking responsibility for it, truly. A mess. We could easily have lost a very productive, not perfect, but young and learning, editor, with hundreds of articles to her credit, mostly quite good on review, and 30 successful DYK nominations. Bullied and blamed and abused, really. I want to stop that, not just to fix this one incident, and not by blaming anybody for the mistakes made, but by fixing the structure that allows mistakes like that to be made. And this self-controlled user RfC in my Talk space is a test of some of the ideas. I think it will work if two or three editors participate, but it might work much better than that.--Abd (talk) 02:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you so much Abd for your comments at User talk:Alvestrand. I do feel the Arbcom decision is inappropriate and has been unduely influenced by the relentless attacks of Elonka, her systematic mischaracterization of my contributions, and her garnering of support on-Wiki and off-Wiki. I only work to share knowledge about interesting and little-known topics, I have a great love for Wikipedia, and, to answer your question, this is why I have continued contributing actively on numerous topics outside the Ancient History and Medieval History areas. For some of my most recent contributions you can have a look at France-Japan relations (19th century), France-Thailand relations, Japan-Thailand relations, Siamese revolution (1688), or, if you are interested in the history of mathematics or have a kid to entertain with mathematical wonders :), the Siamese method. Best regards PHG (talk) 07:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome, it has been a pleasure to read your articles. To me, the problem isn't Elonka, nor is it you. The problem is the system, or lack of system or structure that will mediate disputes clearly and that facilitate consensus efficiently. I suspect that the problems with your sourcing could have been worked out if it had not become a contest of wills. As you might know, I was just blocked, partly because I intervened in a quite unjust topic ban, against a 16-year-old girl who is actually quite a decent editor. Not perfect, but far better than average, but she was judged by very, very harsh standards. Anyway, though I was unblocked, the issues that led to my block were never resolved. Did I, in fact, harass the administrator who had ended up -- after the fact, deciding that there was a ban against this girl making nominations to DYK, her favorite thing to do? (She has thirty successful DYK nominations.) (There never had been a close to the discussion.) I'd like to know if I did what I was accused of, for if I did, I really should not be editing. I asked for unblock based on narrow grounds that, contrary to what had been asserted, I had responded to warnings, even though I disagreed with them. It was denied. But other admins, who had apparently been waiting for this, came in and suggested an unblock, not because the block was improper, but because it had served its purpose. And its purpose was? None of this ever became clear. So I've put myself on a voluntary topic ban, i.e., everything outside my user space, with, then, some exceptions. And I'm starting an experimental kind of RfC, in my own user space, one designed to be more deliberative and, hopefully, efficient. Because its purpose is to advise me as to how to proceed, I have the right to control it, to regulate the process. If they don't allow me to do that, well, I'd conclude that Wikipedia is too far gone to recover, and I might give up trying to help. The RfC is at User:Abd/RfC and there is a proxy table. Please, if you are at all interested, add your name to the proxy table, see the instruction there. Naming a proxy is optional, but the idea is to name someone you think would be most likely to make a good decision about related issues, if you can't. The whole process is purely advisory, and proxies don't vote on behalf of their "clients," but may simply be considered, by someone analyzing a poll, to roughly represent those who name them. --Abd (talk) 08:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Appeal

Hi Abd, I have filed a request for appeal at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. I'll be looking forward to your support. Cheers PHG (talk) 18:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I will do what I can. Be careful, be thorough, and, of course, be civil. As to my own situation, I'm working on a process that, if it works, might be able to avoid Arbitration, or, if it goes there, would be relatively likely to succeed. See User:Abd/RfC --Abd (talk) 21:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)Thanks to Fritzpoll for correcting a typo in the link. --Abd (talk) 21:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Too many words... brain hurting... eyes failing... synaptic pathways shutting down

If you really want people to follow your arguments try being less verbose, for the love of Jehovah! give concision a try. RMHED (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. Recommendation: unless it is a warning on your Talk page or there is some other very good reason you must read it, don't read what I write. I'm verbose in some situations and concise in others, and I have no idea which you are referring to, really. I'm verbose when there is generally no obligation to read what I write, so I'm writing for those -- who might only be a few -- who have sufficient interest to take the time to read what I write. I assure you that it takes far less time to read it with the necessary attention than it does to write. I'm concise, generally, when I have a point that I'm pushing, rather than merely discussing. Further, if I write something that seems too long, but that also seems interesting, you could always ask me to boil it down. I usually will. Or others might, they often do.

If I write the boiled down version first, what happens is that many people simply don't understand it, too many details are missing, and it takes me about three times as long to write concisely as to write verbosely, so.... how can I anticipate if people are even interested, unless I write the concise version first. Which means wasting a lot of time. --Abd (talk) 16:50, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

• On your "RFC" page, it says Abd was warned by Jehochman, regarding an edit to Abd's own Talk page.. Please link me to the edit that you were warned for. It is too hard to find it. I want a brief reply, preferably just a diff link. I refuse to read giant replies anymore. Steve Crossin ^Contact/₂₄ 17:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

• Never mind. TL;DR. If you can't be consise then 99% of editors are going to ignore you. Steve Crossin ^Contact/₂₄ 18:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict with below) I've been quite succinct in any important content in the RfC, so I had no idea that Mr. Crossin was referring to this, I assumed he was writing about something else. The RfC is at User:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block which is the RfC for the specific incident, it is extremely concise. And that page refers to User:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block/Evidence, which is intended for the whole incident, not just the specific first question. However, the edit I made that Jehochman was referring to is diffed in the block RfC itself; at the moment it is the only diff there, since it was so important. It is the diff given by Jehochman. I don't see how one could have looked at that page, with any caution at all, and missed it. Perhaps Mr. Crossin was misled by my reference to the Evidence page, which can be quickly reviewed, and the Warning is close to the top, but he saw that it was more than one page, and thus that he might have to read all that. Not. Plus there is a table of contents for that page, which should have made it easy to find. But, for convenience, the "screed" is at [2]. Yes, it's long, it was on my Talk page, though it would be enough to scan it looking for "personal attack," an attempt to "drive away [Fritzpoll], or the rest. It's really a pretty simple question the RfC is starting by asking, broken down into subquestions. It's not the last question to be asked, and anyone can suggest questions, which will be considered in due time.

Let me make something clear. I've invited everyone interested to participate. That does not mean that I want participation from editors who refuse to look at the actual evidence, but only want to express irrelevant or premature opinions or general impressions, at least not at this point. There will be a place to express such, but not before we get the facts straight. That present process tends to the latter, that it will propose and vote on remedies before there is any consensus on the evidence, is one of the big problems we have. It's straight out of Alice in Wonderland, the Queen: "Sentence first, verdict afterwards." --Abd (talk) 19:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, how did you choose who to send your thing to? Was it just a list of people who'd posted on your talk page or something? Not taking part, ridiculously complicated over what seems like a small issue, can't be bothered, sorry. Tombomp (talk/contribs) 18:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia guideline on user pages

There is a Wikipedia guideline about what a user page may contain. It says:

Examples of unrelated content include:

9. Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws. The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided the dispute resolution process is started in a timely manner. Users should not maintain in public view negative information on others without very good reason.

Yellowbeard 19:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)