Talk:Anti-Bihari sentiment/Archive 1

The article has been recently started and is in the process of making. The current content will be expanded.

WP:POVFORK page says What content/POV forking is not

• Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles

Sometimes, when an article gets long (see Wikipedia:Article size), a section of the article is made into its own article, and the handling of the subject in the main article is condensed to a brief summary. This is completely normal Wikipedia procedure; the new article is sometimes called a "spinout" or "spinoff" of the main article, see for example wikipedia:summary style, which explains the technique.

• Articles whose subject is a POV

Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other appropriate points of view.

So I am removing WP:POVFORK Manoj nav (talk) 08:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that this article should be kept. It is accurate and well referenced. All the incidents described in here are true. Truth sets us free. Only when we acknowledge that this exists steps can be taken to improve it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drsanjaymd (talk • contribs) 15:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The page is underconstruction

This article is in the middle of an expansion, and is not yet ready for use. Kindly coperate. Manoj nav (talk) 17:57, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Some suggestions

The article is being developed by editors through IP addresses -159.104.212.36, 91.104.57.107 and 86.136.254.40. There has been an excellent progress and lot of material has been added. May I suggest you to create login and user pages, so that we can communicate better.

There is a discussion at [1].

• I think that this article is well researched and accurate. It must be maintained in Wikipedia

and should not be deleted just because some people dislike it. Thanks - drsanjaymd —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drsanjaymd (talk • contribs) 15:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Someone says there -

There are 2 separate issues

• Social/political/economic issues
• Bihari label and treatment of individual Biharis by some non-Biharis

I think there is a point in that and we need to do some research. Manoj nav (talk) 17:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Saying Biharis face Racism and Prejudice because they are 'economically poor and uneducated' amounts to saying Africans faced racism because they were darker. Even the most uneducated and poor has the right to live in his country as a main stream citizen. A person can't say that I shall treat you like a waste till you become rich and educate yourself. You will not find Bhojpuri films in shops like Planet-M, which other wise keeps musics and films in all other Indian regional languages. This is racism. Theaters showing Bihari films have been attacked. This is a social-Apartheid of Indian origin, which will soon be legalized, if people like Naik [2], exists (this is just my personal opinion). Manoj nav (talk) 19:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with what you say. What I wanted to do is provide as much information as possible without providing an answer. Causes of racism are normally cultural and economic in nature. My view is that what is happning to Biharis is the same as what happed to Indians in Uganda. I will be happy to see what additional changes you can make. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notashamed (talk • contribs) 21:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't be online much for atleast next 10 days. Some had suggested for the deletion of the article without any discussion. So I have removed the message. I shall contribute for the article in time to come and ask others as well. We also need to add some photographs. Manoj nav (talk) 18:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

AfDM without discussion thread ??

Assuming that there is no issue at all, I am removing the message. The article is very much justified. Manoj nav (talk) 18:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I deleted AfDM message out of ignorance. There is a discussion going on at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Racism faced by Bihari people in India, which unfortunately has no link on this discussion page. Neither did I receive any personal message. I would request the Administrator to restore the message if it is required. Manoj nav (talk) 19:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

change in the title of the article.

The title of the article has been changed from 'Racism faced by the people of Bihar' to 'Anti-Bihari sentiment in India'. I do not support this. Others kindly comment. Manoj nav (talk) 18:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The new title is a nice euphemism but equally OR. There is neither any racism nor any "anti-bihari sentiment" in India. Biharis enjoy the same fundamental constitutional rights that every other citizen of the company enjoys. Nothing more nothing less. Any suggestions of a supposed "anti-bihari sentiment" in India is a figment of the authors' imagination. This is wikipedia.. not a propaganda pamphlet. Stop giving vent to your imaginations here.

The free movement of people seeking work from one part of the Indian Union is guaranteed in the constitution[1]. - Nice!

Millions of Biharis have left their home state to work in developmental projects, and also to seek general work in other parts of India. As a consequence, Biharis have been subjected a growing degree of prejudice and violence. The current prejudiced view of Biharis in India in line with all mass migration events.[2].[3][4][5] - Brilliant!

Is this supposed to be a joke? Sarvagnya 19:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Kindly refer the discussion thread for reply to your conflict - Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Racism_faced_by_Bihari_people_in_India Manoj nav (talk) 22:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Shrivastava1984 (talk) 18:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)I think the name of this topic is absolutely correct. I am a Bihari and i have faced racism various times when i was in Maharashta for my studies and in Andhra Pradesh for Job. People of other state think that Biharis are inferior.Again I would like to submit here that Indian constitution guarantees the same constitutional rights but we hardly enjoy the same. When Raj Thackrey was targeting people of Bihar in Maharashtra, people were afraid to speak. I have seen fear in their eyes.

the very premise of this article is a hoax????

I think the discussion suggests the other way round - Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Racism_faced_by_Bihari_people_in_India Manoj nav (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

the new sub-section titles don't conveys the right information

The some of the sub-section titles have been changed to

• Inclusion in BIMARU
• Poor professionals
• Allegations of vulgarity of culture

They are misleading and conveying wrong informations. I would request experts on the topic to look into it. Any effort to improve the linguistics of the article should not be to the extend that it conveys wrong information. Manoj nav (talk) 22:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate content for an encyclopædia

This continued underinvestment shows in many ways. There is not even one major irrigation system built in an agricultural state like Bihar since independence. The latest one is the British built Son Canal system. For 45 kilometres of Yamuna in Delhi, there are 20 bridges. But for 445 km of Ganga in Bihar, there are just three and half bridges. Even simple demand of the state like a TV station at the state capital was consistently denied by the centre.

Lest Biharis start to ask for their due share, a myth was created that the state is highly corrupt and criminalised. Allegations of casteism and criminalisation were hurled to hit at the self esteem of Biharis. Prominent editors like MV Kamath of the Illustrated Weekly of India wrote an objectionable essay saying Biharis are not fit to rule Bihar. He even went on to say that Bihar needs to be kept under the tutelage of outsiders till they become capable to handle their affairs themselves. This essay was published in his so called national magazine at the height of the movement of Jayaprakash Narayan in the mid seventies. This line of thinking can be compared with the self righteous thinking of the colonialists at the height of imperialism in the mid ninteenth century.

Data from NCRB shows that in several parameters of crime, such as murder, rape, dacoity and dowry harassment, Bihar is nowhere near the top. It is only in kidnapping that Bihar was ranked top since 2000 to 2005. However, if one quotes these figures, one is immediately countered by saying that you cannot rely on the figures given by Govt of Bihar. This attitude cannot but be called bias where one is damned either way.

This policy of discrimination brought about the results intended by the planners. The green revolution of Punjab and Haryana is largely the result of the hard work of the labourers from Bihar. If proper money had been spent on flood control and irrigation projects in Bihar, these labourers would not have had the reason to migrate and the green revolution would have happened in Bihar instead.

The above mentioned paras are a piece of WP:POV and WP:OR. Clearly, it should be deleted. --KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 06:49, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite, Reposition and delete some

Reweite, Send to Economy There is not even one major irrigation system built in an agricultural state like Bihar since independence. The latest one is the British built Son Canal system. For 45 kilometres of Yamuna in Delhi, there are 20 bridges. But for 445 km of Ganga in Bihar, there are just three and half bridges. Even simple demand of the state like a TV station at the state capital was consistently denied by the centre.

Rewite, send to Consequences with Biharis Lest Biharis start to ask for their due share, a myth was created that the state is highly corrupt and criminalised. Allegations of casteism and criminalisation were hurled to hit at the self esteem of Biharis.

Notable Incidents Prominent editors like MV Kamath of the Illustrated Weekly of India wrote an objectionable essay saying Biharis are not fit to rule Bihar. He even went on to say that Bihar needs to be kept under the tutelage of outsiders till they become capable to handle their affairs themselves. This essay was published in his so called national magazine at the height of the movement of Jayaprakash Narayan in the mid seventies. This line of thinking can be compared with the self righteous thinking of the colonialists at the height of imperialism in the mid ninteenth century.

rewrite, Send to Consequences with Biharis Data from NCRB shows that in several parameters of crime, such as murder, rape, dacoity and dowry harassment, Bihar is nowhere near the top. It is only in kidnapping that Bihar was ranked top since 2000 to 2005. However, if one quotes these figures, one is immediately countered by saying that you cannot rely on the figures given by Govt of Bihar. This attitude cannot but be called bias where one is damned either way.

delete This policy of discrimination brought about the results intended by the planners. The green revolution of Punjab and Haryana is largely the result of the hard work of the labourers from Bihar. If proper money had been spent on flood control and irrigation projects in Bihar, these labourers would not have had the reason to migrate and the green revolution would have happened in Bihar instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notashamed (talk • contribs) 12:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Removed sections or placed in to appropriate AREA

removing tags —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frompatna (talk • contribs) 21:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Article is subject to vandalism through inproper use of Taggings

The entry appears to be a victim of vendalism by a user who failed to get the page deleted. What is the process to protect this page from further vandalism

Tags

This article is going from bad to worse. Unless the references support what is written in the article, I will be going ahead and deleting stuff from this screed. None of the refs in the lead support any of the contentions made in the lead. And the various sections that follow only record various instances of local populations' exasperation with uncouth Bihari migrants. That does not automatically mean that there is an anti-Bihari sentiment in India or elsewhere. The article is generously laced with OR, POV and for the most part is an outright hoax. Unless these issues are addressed, I will be tagging it. Sarvagnya 19:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism Confirmation

Despite a debate in deletion, in which multiple users agreed that the article is well sourced and reasonably well written, we have a "user" who is determined to undermine the consensus agreed. Suggest this article be protected against valdalism as outlined above. The page, like all those in discrimination, deserve protection from elements who make false judgements as agreed in the debate.

For further information;

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Racism_faced_by_Bihari_people_in_India —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notashamed (talk • contribs) 08:21, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

tags

Well, I was one of the editors who did not support deletion of this article during the AFD. If there is an editor who is tagging them for issues, there are probably issues. Please do not throw accusations, but rather discuss with the person, try to resolve and possibly let someone else take the tags away if possible (when the issue is resolved). Docku^Hi 02:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I have removed this because the references do really not support the statement. Please do not put it back without convincing others in the talk page. Docku^Hi 03:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

title concerns

Though I support the existence of the article (not in its current form), I still am bothered that the title is not convincingly correct (though I know it was changed before). The article chronicles the economic miseries and various incidences of discrimination faced by Biharis. However, there is no single reference (correct me if i am wrong), which calls this plight racism or anti-Bihari sentiment. I therefore suggest changing the title to something more appropriate. I beleieve the title should be themed on the economical difficulties faced by Biharis. Docku^Hi 03:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, to begin with, I have changed the title , hope it is acceptable to all. Docku^Hi 04:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I find the new title a huge improvement from the hoax it was. The article should eventually be merged and redirected to Economy of Bihar. All the cruft about how Bihari labourers were allegedly beaten in MH, Assam etc., needs to be flushed out. Sarvagnya 04:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I am not sure about the merging yet. Let us keep improving by keeping valid information in and kicking the bogus stuff out and see where it leads to. Docku^Hi 04:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

changed again. Please pls feel free to tweak it in a way it reflects the article content. Docku^Hi 16:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Bihari Labour

It is vital that attacks on migrant Bihari workers remain part of this entry. This forms part of the picture of prejudiced attitudes towards Biharis inside India (outside the Hindi belt). Thousands of been deported and hundreds killed. Reports by CNNIBN, by NDTV, by Times of India, as mentioned in references cite the the violence on Bihari workers. These aren't alleged incidents as statmed by the advocate of deleteion above.

For thoes now involved in editing this very important entry....Please Cross Reference will all sources on the reference section. See if they are fake, lies, falsehoods, poor sources. It is very, very important that discriminated poor people don't get 'thrown' out because they are very, very, very poor and no access to education, healthcare. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notashamed (talk • contribs) 08:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Notashamed

Kindly make the necessary addition and modification which you think are required. Some people have restored to proactive attack on this article instead of proactive contributions and suggestions. Manoj nav (talk) 09:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

cleanup

I have done some cleanup removing most of the unreferenced info and rephrasing some POV sentences. The article still needs a lot of work. Docku^Hi 20:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I am thinking of titles such as Economic migration of Biharis in Indiaand Socio-political effects of economic migration of Biharis in India. Pls let me know your opinions. Docku^Hi 03:02, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I would like to forward following discussion which was taking place on my talk page User_talk:Manoj_nav ( during the time I was blocked by an administrator User_talk:YellowMonkey, which I strongly oppose as an immature act, without trying to find out the actual truth and giving me a personal warning or atleast a message on my talk page while blocking. In absence of an apology or explanation from the administrator, I will conclude that it was a biased act by the administrator to lobby against the article I am editing i.e. Racism_faced_by_Bihari_people_in_India.). I am forwarding the discussion related to the article here so that others can also participate in the discussion. Manoj nav (talk) 13:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

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Hi, I changed the title to (Economic distress of Biharis in India) what I believe is appropriately reflecting the content of the article. I am aware that changing the title hasnt solved all the problems and I still believe the article needs a lot of rewriting and will be doing my contributions whenever I find some time. Hope it is ok. Thanks. Docku^Hi 04:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, if there are editors who are concerned with the title and explain their concerns for changing the title, you have to address those concenrs. You can not make an unilateral decision changing the title without provinding any explanation just accusing the editor of vandalism. That is not the way wikipedia works. I also notice your free use of the word vandalism. If i notice such language again, you will be reported to administrators which could get you into trouble. Docku^Hi 13:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

You have blanked following subsection-

"Genocide of Bihari culture"

Indian government, till recently, identified all Bihari languages (Bhojpuri, Magadhi, Maithili and Angika) as dialects of Hindi. A Bihari speaking Bihari accent of Hindi in the rest of India is frequently reminded of that he is speaking incorrect Hindi inspite of belonging to the Hindi heartland of India. This stereotype has been created by the establishments in Delhi to propagate Hindi at any cost. Bihari languages (Bhojpuri, Magadhi, Maithili and Angika) are descendants of ancient Magadhi-prakrit language spoken in the ancient kingdom of Magadha and are very different from Hindi or Urdu. Even after 60 years of India's independence Bihari languages, which are spoken by almost the whole of the population of Bihar, have not been given official status. Maithili was granted official status in 2004, after an active movement, through its inclusion in the Eighth Schedule of the Indian Constitution, so that it may be used in education, government, and other official contexts.

Will any administrator make me understand if this is not vandalism. If any editor has any dispute, he or she is supposed to add citation tags and give the previous editors time to further modify it. Instead of this the subsection has been blanked.

The section headings Causes of xenophobia and prejudice against Biharis and Notable establishment sponsored incidents of hate and prejudice against the community has been changed to to Causes and Notable incidents respectively to dilute the topic and then it has been claimed to change the title to Economic distress of Biharis in India or Treatment of Bihari economic migrants in India or Anti-Bihari migrant sentiment in India. Do we need experts to confirm if these anti-bihari sentements are racism. Why is it so difficult to assimilate?

Manoj nav (talk) 06:32, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any reference (not just any, reliable) for any of the information written in "Genocide of Bihari culture"? Without references, contentious materials will be removed immediately from article even if many of the editors editing the article (including you and me) think and believe it is true. verifiability is the first rule (not the only). "Xenophobia", "racism" and "establishment sponsored incidents" are incredibly loaded words and without extraordinary references, they stand no chance in the article. In fact, I would caution you against adding them in the future because doing so without a strong evidence could get you into trouble. Read the following policies during the small break, WP:VERI, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:NOT, WP:REDFLAG, WP:UNDUE and several others. Remember, if the informations which we add breach even one of these policies, it cant stay in wikipedia. Good luck. Docku^Hi 14:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

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I fail to receive Docku's arguments. Changing the key sub-titles and the title of the article may give an illusion that what he is trying to say is justified i.e. the article is not about discrimination. If one go through the whole article and the references provided, one can clearly make out that Biharis are discriminated in India. Following edits suggest that the key issue .i.e. 'discrimination faced by Biharis' is being sidelined and ignored, so as to give an illusion that the article is solely about the topic 'economic distress/miseries of Biharis in India'.

• the introduction to the violence and discrimination faced by Biharis has been pushed down
• the sub headings which gives eye catching view and better understanding of derogatory remarks made by people holding key positions in India like ministers, people occupying gov. offices, journalists, politicians etc. have been removes so that the para becomes unreadable and looks lengthy.
• the heading Causes of xenophobia and prejudice against Biharis has been shortened to causes and it has been claimed that there is no reference to support this, which is unarguably false.

A systematic attempt has been been made to change the voice (and not the tone) of the article which I feel is equivalent to deleting the article, which was protested at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Racism_faced_by_Bihari_people_in_India and writing a new article all together. The out come of the discussion ( Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Racism_faced_by_Bihari_people_in_India )was clearly against the deletion of the article.

I think the editors are not able to understand (which I have already discussed) that there are 2 issues

• Bihari label and treatment of Biharis in India
• Social/political/economic issues

Saying Biharis face Racism and Prejudice because they are 'economically poor and uneducated' amounts to saying Africans faced racism because they were darker. Even the most uneducated and poor has the right to live in his country as a main stream citizen. A person can't say that I shall treat you like a waste till you become rich and educate yourself. I feel the edits should be made keeping this in mind.

I support for a title "Discrimination/racism faced by Biharis in India" and suggest that the edits should be made accordingly.

Manoj nav (talk) 13:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Manoj, I understand your concerns. I guess you are really passionate about this article. I feel (notice, feeling with you is not enough to include here) with you on most of the issues you raised. Now, let me explain why I am not in favour of Anti-Bihari sentiment title.

The article is a collection of several informations of migration of Biharis to various parts of India and descriminate treatment of them in some places. However, what is missing is that you have not provided an article from reliable news magazine or a book (from a reliable publisher) which deals with the title named Racism faced by Biharis in India or Anti-Bihari sentiment in India. Have you? Under the circumstances, I feel it is only appropriate to title the article which reflects both migration and descrimination. Docku^Hi 15:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The introduction says " These Bihari communities living in other states have been subjected to a growing degree of prejudice and violence. ", with references. " Interstate Migrations in India " could be a new page where we can talk about migrations taking place in India. The current page was started specifically to discuss about the discriminations that Biharis face in India. Manoj nav (talk) 07:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

You have a point. Well, I will go with the current title then. Docku^Hi 13:05, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I still beieve that the title is original research. Docku^Hi 03:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I have disagreed with the current title in the past here. Manoj nav (talk) 12:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not trying to dilute the article in any way, I have just removed unreferenced information. If there is anything I have removed which was referenced, please bring it up and let us talk about it. Docku^Hi 15:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

causes

Considering it more carefully and sharing the similar sentiments of User:Sarvagnya, I have questions to Manoj. Well, I agree that section Causes are referenced and independently verifiable and the same is true with violence against the migrants in various parts of India. The issue is not a question of verifiability. I have no problem with that.

However, what is really missing is reliable sources which discuss the link between the violence and the causes. Without such reliable sources, claiming that violence against the migrants was caused by the causes listed (historical, social, cultural and economical) is original research. I hope I conveyed the message well to you. Docku^Hi 14:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Causes with Violence

Hi Docku

I dont know if you read all the references, but pls read

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/showcolumns.aspx?id=COLEN20080042337 > Looks at causes of the violence (cultural, economic).

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Raj_to_India_Inc_80_jobs_for_Marathis/articleshow/2939094.cms > Links economic causes with the violence in Maharashtra

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=35469&d=23&m=11&y=2003&pix=opinion.jpg&category=Opinion > M J Akbar links history, cultural with the violence

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=&id=7737db7e-a9b5-4d88-802f-3afaff0985d4&&Headline=The+EMBhaiyya+%2fEMEffect&strParent=strParentID

"All this contributes to the lack of regard for UP and Bihar in many parts of India. In Bangalore, a few years ago, a successful software executive told me that he had compiled a growth rate for south India and that it exceeded China's. "It is UP and Bihar that let us down," he said. Such sentiments are common. The face of India that we show to the world — hi-tech, Bollywood-glitzy and super-educated — has nothing to do with UP and Bihar. For many Indians, the two states have become an embarrassment." links growth rates to resenment and prejudice

Current situation and comparison with Racism "The roots of Raj Thackeray's attack on the Bhaiyyas lie in India's economic transformation. Through a combination of poor planning and worse politics, Bihar and UP have been left out of the economic revolution. When people from those states travel outside to find work, those who have benefited from the recent prosperity treat them with the kind of snobbery and disdain with which the British treated Indians when we went to England to find employment in the 1950s. Then, we were seen as losers from a place that would never manage to prosper.But, of course, Indians ignored the racism and rose to the top of the economic pyramid. And eventually, India shed its old image and went from being perceived as an underdeveloped wasteland to becoming an emerging superpower. It may be too optimistic to hope that something similar will happen to UP and Bihar. But we need to recognise that the disdain with which we treat the two states is both unfair and unnecessary. And the rulers of UP and Bihar need also to realise that there "

Notashamed (talk • contribs)

Notable Incidents

I would also argue that Notable Incidents be expanded to "Notable Incidents of Prejudice". The Incidents of prejudice illustrates that Biharis face non migrant levels of prejudice as well....and also from educated people. Notashamed (talk • contribs)

"Notable incidents of Prejudice adopted by the establishments" looks more suitable as it lists the incidents where the ruling elites, political leaders are involved (and not common men). Manoj nav (talk) 09:33, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Title

I recommend that it be called one of the below (given that this has been widley reported)

1) Discrimination against Bihari Migrant Workers 2) Prejudice and Violence against Biharis in Non Hindi Speaking India 3) Discrimination against Biharis in Non-Hindi speaking India (I support this one)

I place more emhpasis against non Hindi speaking, as the incidents and violence is largley confined to cultures alien to Hindi speakers.

Notashamed (talk • contribs)

Biharis face prejudice and descrimination even in Hindi speaking regions e.g. western UP and even in Bihar by non-Biharis. Manoj nav (talk) 14:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Bihari migrant sentiment in India at Original research notice board

The article 'Anti-Bihari migrant sentiment in India' has been listed at the Original research notice board here . Manoj nav (talk) 15:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

removed POV

I have removed POV notice. If it is disputed kindly discuss and place it back. Manoj nav (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 09:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC).

Page moves

If there are any further page moves on controversial titles, please list them on WP:RM so that consensus can be reached, and the community at large can be notified. Another thing, the title is grammatically wrong: Community is in capitals, and a the is missing. =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Questions

Manoj Nav: You have basically undone all the changes I have done sometime before. You havent answered any of the concerns regarding Original research. You havent answered why you call it racism (again original research) when all Indians are the same race. It appears to me that you havent really understood the problems with the article. Pls understand WP is not a medium to advertise your displeasure, ideas and opinions to the world, but rather an encyclopedia. Docku:“what up?” 12:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

All Indians under one race? I disagree. =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:48, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Indo-Aryans, mongoloids and Dravidians??? Well, in any case, the races (or ethnic groups) are very well mixed, I dont belive Marathis and Biharis as a whole belong to two different races. Therefore actions of people from one state or region of India against the other can not be considered racism. Docku:“what up?” 16:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

There are various races - people of North East (Chinese race), Jats-Punjabis (Indo-Greeks + tribals), South Indians (Dravidians), Adivsis (Claimed to be original inhabitants of Indian sub-continents), Aryans and the mixed breeds. Manoj nav (talk) 00:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

so sure like you were there to witness how the races diverged? What about Marathis and Biharis??? What races do they belong to? Docku:“what up?” 00:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I guess you need to refer a book. It's well known historically. You have already accepted - Indo-Aryans, mongoloids and Dravidians. I guess you are doubtful about Indo-Greeks. I can give some ref. for you, if you want. Manoj nav (talk) 00:58, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Greek_conquests_in_India, A NEW NON-JONESEAN HISTORY OF THE WORLD Manoj nav (talk) 01:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

My point is that Indians are very mixed that classifying an individual or group of Indians into one ethnicity is very difficult. What about Marathi and Bihari, in your opinion? Docku:“what up?” 01:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Racism#Legal I don't wish to define racism here. According to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life. This definition does not make any difference between prosecutions based on ethnicity and race, in part because the distinction between the two remains debatable among anthropologists. According to British law, racial group means "any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin" . Further .. An ethnic group is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of preferential endogamy and/or a presumed or real common ancestry. Ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness[3] and the recognition of common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioral or biological traits, real or presumed, as indicators of contrast to other groups.

I do agree that in general racism term is negotiable. But what we are interested here is in 'Racial Discrimination'. Manoj nav (talk) 01:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

You are not answering my question. What is your opinion on race of Bihari and Marathi?? Docku:“what up?” 01:16, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

They are linguistically and culturally different. And so they belong to two ethnic groups. Manoj nav (talk) 01:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Therefore, it is debatable. Any decision we make after this debate is going to be original research. Pls read WP:OR. Docku:“what up?” 01:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not debatable in the current context. "I do agree that in general racism term is negotiable. But what we are interested here is in 'Racial Discrimination'." Infact 'Racism faced by Bihari in India' is a commonly held view, which is reflected very clearly from these two articles - Bhaiyaa Effect and State of neglect: Deluged Bihar falls off Govt map. Manoj nav (talk) 01:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

When the word "racism" as used here is in dispute and all that you have are two references which mention the word in passing. Do you have an article titled Racism faced by Bihari community in India or something similar discussed in any reliable source? Docku:“what up?” 02:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I think you will have to find more references yourself, which are available. " Infact 'Racism faced by Bihari in India' is a commonly held view, which is reflected very clearly from these two articles - Bhaiyaa Effect and State of neglect: Deluged Bihar falls off Govt map. Manoj nav (talk)11:38, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Burden of providing evidence lies with you. Read WP:Burden. Besides, that "it is a commonly held view" doesnt really cut it and I do not see the clarity (sorry about that). Docku:“what up?” 14:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you agree that the current contents of the article are well referred? If not so please speak up. As far as choosing a suitable title is concerned wait for others comments. I think "Racism faced by Bihari community in India" is a suitable title for the article, and is nothing more then just calling apple, an apple. Manoj nav (talk) 14:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Why original research and synthesis?

You are correlating historical section with the violence against Bihari immigrants. By doing so, you are synthesising new material and therefore violating WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. Docku:“what up?” 15:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I think historical section doesn't belongs to the section - 'causes..'. Manoj nav (talk) 00:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposal

Well, I propose the following title Violence against Bihari migrants in India.

I also propose to remove all the causes (not substantially proven and reliably sourced) leading to the violence including the Historical section from the article. These informations can be kept in the article if we are to name the article to a generic title such as Bihari migration in India. Docku:“what up?” 18:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree with the title.--KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 13:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Violence against Bihari migrants in India is not the only topic which is covered in the article. It's part of a more general topic Racism faced by Bihari Community in India. Violence against Bihari ethnic group is nothing but racial discrimination. Kindly go through the references. Manoj nav (talk) 14:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with removal of the causes section it explains the reasons behind of the violence and prejudice.

I have supplied reliable sources that link all of them together in the deletion debate.

Docku you need to state why the causes "references" are not reliable soources, each of them, and what makes them suitable for deletion.

Its not correct to say "I dont think" without going through the source, making a case why its not good enough in detail, and pointing out the very specific reason for its removal.

Many sources, mention abuse, recism, anti bihari violence is the same breadth. The sources are reliable like Times of India, Hindustan Times, CNNIBN. A lot of these sources also discuss causes, and that is important in an entry like this also.

On the title; CNNIBN, Vir Singhvi, Times of India, NDTV, all discuss this issue of racism and prejudice against Bihari people. I have highlighted the CNNIBN report during the deletion debate.

That was important because it outlined Biharis as a people, a seperate identity. NotAshamed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notashamed (talk • contribs) 22:33, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

New edits

I have done a few edits like -

• Changed the line in the introduction - "Bihari communities living in other states have been subjected to a growing degree of prejudice and violence." to "Bihari communities living in other states have been subjected to a growing degree of racial discrimination, prejudice and violence." It's supported by references, which are secondary sources.

• Changed the line in the introduction - "Biharis are often looked down upon" to "Biharis are often looked down upon and their accent is ridiculed."

• Added comment by Indian journalist, Vir Sanghvi.

I have added few more references and will keep adding references. Manoj nav (talk) 17:10, 27 September 2008 (UTC)