Talk:2008–09 UEFA Champions League

This article was nominated for deletion on May 24, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on July 29, 2007. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

Group Stage Updates as teams qualify

As you add teams to the group stage list, please make sure the comment marks are in the correct place (around the UEFA coefficient rank only) for all teams. If there are more than 8 teams in a column (Each column corresponts to the pot they will be placed in for the draw) or a team is out of order, please use cut and paste to rearrange.

Thank you. Danke. Gracias. Obrigado. Shishini(sp?). Domo arigato.

RaiderRich2001 (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Mistake in Association Team Allocation list

If you do your maths, there will be an odd number of teams in the second qualifying round:

Second Qualifying Round: (28 teams)

• 14 winners from the First Qualifying Round
• 9 champions from associations 16-24 (Bulgaria, Switzerland, Norway, Israel, Serbia, Denmark, Austria, Poland, and Hungary)
• 6 runners-up from associations 10-15

This gives 29 teams!!!

The Champions of Poland and Hungary are not "certain to compete in the second qualifying round of the Champions League". As it stands at the moment, they will start in the first qualifying round.

However, they both will be 'promoted' if the winner of the current edition of the Champions League qualifies for this addition via its league position of its associated national league.--Fridge46 21:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Champions League holder ?

Should it be mentioned that if the Champions League holder qualifies through its national league, that the champions of Scotland (ranked 10th) will go straight to the group stage? This rule is still operable for 2008-09, isn't it? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

No, because that is false, the Russian champions will be moved back a round. Chaza 93 18:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't believe you are correct. Russia is ranked 9th, and its champions will enter the group stages directly irrespective of who is the previous winner. Scotland, ranked 10th, will get the winner's place if the rules that applied this and last year (when Scotland, ranked 10th again, got the champions place after Arsenal lost to Barcelona) remain. These are the rules as they currently stand:

If the defending cup holder already qualified directly for the group stage of the Champions League, the champion of the 10th country on the country ranking list will gain direct access to the group stage, the champion of the 16th country on the country ranking list will gain direct access to the 3rd qualifying round, and the champions of the 26th and 27th country on the country ranking list will gain direct access to the 2nd qualifying round. Similar changes are made if the cup holder already qualified directly for one of the qualification rounds.

Did they change, and if so, please provide a source. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I have added a note to this effect as there is adequate citation on the BBC Sport website that indicates next season, if the winner finishes in the top 4 of the Italian, Spanish or English leagues then the 1st team from Scotland will get the 'Defending Champions' Spot. 86.132.166.22 (talk) 12:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Correction - for 'top 4' above, read 'top 2', citation has been amended accordingly 86.132.166.22 19:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Qualified teams

We may be being a bit hasty in filling in the teams by round as we are. By the sounds of it there's about to be a little reshuffle, to be confirmed on 1 December - from what I understand, the same teams will qualify, but some of them will be entered in different rounds, and it seems there is to be another round inserted between the Third Qual. and the Group Stage. Falastur2 (talk) 02:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Those "reshuffles" will come into effect for the 2009-10 UEFA Champions League, not for this one. This is because the domestic leagues were each told at the start of this (2007-08) season which places would qualify for which round of which 2008-09 European competition, and they can't change that in the middle of the season. - MTC (talk) 07:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

My mistake. I read a webpage which suggested that it would be implemented in this (08-09) season. Falastur2 (talk) 13:21, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Dutch second team

The team qualifying for the third qualifying round is not necessarily the team that finishes 2nd in the league. In fact, teams 2-5 compete in a "play off" tournament, and the winner goes to the third qualifying round. So in fact the 5th place-team in the league can still qualify. See Eredivisie#European competition for details. JACOPLANE • 2007-12-29 17:42

I added a note to indicate this attached to the list of teams, but it was swiftly removed with the reasoning "it's the usual play-off system used by the Dutch" and implying it's not worth mentioning. I've added it back in, as the list of allocations only mentions Champions, runners-up etc. and from that you would assume that AFC Ajax should have been the second Dutch qualifier. - fchd (talk) 05:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

First team from Poland

There is surely a mistake, since champions of Poland are written in this article that they will start from 1st qualifying round AND 2nd qualifying round. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.55.83.194 (talk) 09:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not completely inaccurate. This is depending on how the Champions League winners qualify. This is the same for Hungary. Kingjeff (talk) 16:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

FC Zenit St Petersburg?

I don't know much about Champions League (so I'm not deleting anything) but how come FC Zenit is listed as the club which will automatically play in the group stage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.190.69.34 (talk) 14:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Because they won the Russian Premier League 2007.  ARTYOM  14:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it was me that added them. Winning the Russian league guarantees Group Stage play next season. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

this website has the Russian Champions playing in the Group Stage and the Runner-up in the 3^rd Qualifying Round.I'm assuming a few years ago, Russian League teams did good enough to get teams into the Group Stage of Champions League. Kingjeff (talk) 16:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep, before 2007-08 no team from Russia qualified for the group stage automatically (champion and runner-up qualified for QR3 and QR2, respectively). It was due to Russia's low position in UEFA coefficients. Advancement in ranking occured as a result of CSKA Moscow's triumph at UEFA Cup 2004-05 and the Russian teams' successful participation in 2005-06 season. Also due to Zenit's current good performance in UEFA Cup, three Russian clubs will take part in UEFA Champions League 2009-10, two of which will qualify directly to the group stage. See here for current UEFA coefficients :)  ARTYOM  16:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Inter-Wiki project idea

I came up with an idea of having an inter-wiki project for Champions League, UEFA Cup and UEFA Intertoto Cup. The idea is we can have match reports from Wikinews and use them on Wikipedia article for 2008-09 Champions League, 2008-09 UEFA Cup and 2008 UEFA Intertoto Cup. There should be no sourcing issues since there is a requirement of 2 sources per match report.

1. This is an inter-promotion thing for Wikimedia Foundation.
2. All match reports would be of the same standard.
3. The standard NPOV will be in the match reports as required by Wikinews and Wikipedia.

There will be 213 matches for Champions League, 359 UEFA Cup matches, 78 Intertoto Cup matches for a total of 650 matches. Therefore, there will be a number of people needed to do this. If you're interested or have any questions or comments, you can ask them here or if you would like to sign-up, you can go here. Don't write how this is too big or a bad idea. This is to survey to see how viable this is. However, if you have some constructive comment or question, then feel free to add. Kingjeff (talk) 21:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

CSKA Sofia

CSKA Sofia are starting from Second Qualifying Round ;). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.155.2 (talk) 23:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

No they are not, due to the Champions League winners qualifying for the group stage from their league, the 16th league (Bulgaria)'s champions go into the third qualifying round, not the second. See Bert Kassies' website: Qualification and access list. - MTC (talk) 05:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Read this article - http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/news/kind=2/newsid=690451.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.155.2 (talk) 17:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

This article was issued before the second leg of the semi-finals. That time did not secure that Manchester United and Chelsea will be played at group stage. It is secured that two teams will be contested at the group stage by league at early May. When two teams could contest at the group stage by league, the highest ranked country, Bulgaria, shifted to the third qualifying round. There is no anything be wrong. Raymond Giggs 10:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

---

It seems that this section goes into extra time. Does anybody have a reliable Bulgarian source on the current status of CSKA? The english sources just say they "could be out", not "they are out". So I see no need to cut them until UEFA has decided their case, which will eventually be later this week. Rollback? Hockey-holic (talk) 21:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If CSKA loses its licence, Bulgaria will not be represented in this year's Champions League. Sources:

• Bulgaria's football champions out of Uefa Champions League?
• CSKA FC holds no license to join European football tournaments
• CSKA banned from UEFA championship, begs for mercy

The last source also states that UEFA will announce all participants on June 5.

Hockey-holic (talk) 09:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It´s not true, that Bulgaria will have no team in the CL. The 2nd in the championship - Levski Sofia will participate of course! It is in the rules of UEFA!

Wrong its the team with the highest UEFA Coefficent in this case AC Milan —Preceding unsigned comment added by MattParker 119 (talk • contribs) 13:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid it is you who is wrong: see http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/jun4d.html

I'd expect Levski Sofia to enter instead. Either way to have the page now say that no Bulgarian team will enter if CSKA don't just seems misleading given that its not officially the case yet. --Simonski (talk) 14:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest to wait until tomorrow (June 5th) and see what teams the UEFA announces. With CSKA and Porto out, and no one really knowing who will compete for them, its better to leave the footnotes than editing back and forth because of 20,000 different opinions. Hockey-holic (talk) 14:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

CSKA Sofia are definately out [1]. Porto are apparantly appealing. Bert Kassies' site here [2] already has Vitoria Guimaraes entering the CL group phase automatically, with Benfica moved from the UEFA Cup to CL third qualifying round, as we have here on this page. This of course assumes Porto's appeal fails. Kassies also already list Levski Sofia as Bulgaria's CL entrant. Kassies is an amateur site so not strictly a 100% reliable source but he is usually correct. The suggestion that Bulgaria might not have any CL entrant is almost certainly wrong, regardless of which newspapers have claimed it (newspapers usually don't have much grasp of UEFA rules and practices and just make assumptions). Precendents suggest UEFA will allow the 2nd place team in Bulgaria to enter (Levski) - this occured with Austria in 2001-02, FC Tirol had to withdraw and were replaced with the 2nd place team (Grazer I think). The Milan rumour is false, aside from the fact that allowing Milan to take CSKA's place would hardly be logical or fair, it would leave Italy with five teams in the CL and this is against UEFA's new rules set up in 2005 following the entry of five English clubs. Regardless, CSKA should not be on our list, they are out of the tournament (and probably out of the Bulgarian Premier League too), although maybe it's best to wait until the official announcement before including Levski on the list. MarkB79 (talk) 18:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I just removed the statement from the footnote at the bottom of the page that "no Bulgarian team will replace CSKA" because this is likely to be false and in any case, we don't know for sure until an official announcement is made. Incidentally, the Austrian situation I referred to was apparently in 2002 (not 2001) and it was Sturm Graz who replaced FC Tirol. [3] MarkB79 (talk) 19:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Just found this on Kassies, from UEFA's current CL regulations: "Article 1.07: A club which is not admitted to the competition shall be replaced by the next best-placed club in the top domestic league championship of the same national association, provided it fulfils the admission criteria. In this case, the access list for the UEFA Club Competitions (Annex Ia) will be adjusted accordingly." In other words, Levski Sofia should play in the CL qualifiers. The Milan rumour is nonsense apparently started by an Italian journalist and based on a misunderstanding. This situation is being complicated however by the fact that Levski Sofia's owner has allegedly announced that he does not want his team to play in the CL next year as he feels they are not strong enough to compete and that he will instruct the Bulgarian FA to nominate Lokomotiv Sofia instead. MarkB79 (talk) 23:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Its official! Conformation: http://www.focus-sport.net/?do=n1148764173193 and http://gong.bg/view_article.php?article_id=47185 both respected bulgarian sites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jurist 88 (talk • contribs) 08:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The Sofia Echo also confirms it in English language. Hockey-holic (talk) 13:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews invitation

Wikinews needs people to write news and match reports for UEFA Champions League. To sign-up, please go here. Please let me know if and when you sign-up here. Kingjeff (talk) 15:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Porto are out

They were excluded for bribing referees in 2003-2004. http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_3648676,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by MattParker 119 (talk • contribs) 13:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Porto decision deferred.[4]--Yick50907551 (talk) 13:40, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

That is correct. They may still be allowed back into the competition, but that will not be decided until after the committee meets again, and the date for that meeting has not yet been decided. – PeeJay 13:47, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your info, then I suspend my update.--Yick50907551 (talk) 13:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The decision to suspend F.C.Porto was deferred. At this point, Porto is a team allowed to participate on the competition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.93.110 (talk) 20:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

No, at this time, Porto is "in limbo", so it would be misleading to say they are either allowed or not allowed to compete. – PeeJay 21:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

PeeJay, you said in the summary for your last edit "Porto's place in the 08-09 Champions League is still up for debate, so listing them here as one of the entrants is incorrect." I have to agree, but by the same token, then the positions of the other Portuguese clubs in the tournament are equally uncertain -- for example, if Porto are reinstated, then Benfica are out, so we cannot say that Benfica is "certain" to compete in the tournament. We may need some way to better represent these possibilities, especially if it will quell a potential edit war. —Ed Cormany (talk) 13:38, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

How about we put "Sporting/Porto", "Vitoria Guimaraes/Sporting" and "Benfica/Vitoria Guimaraes" instead, with the second options in each instance being the teams that would compete if Porto are reinstated? – PeeJay 16:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds great, if we link to the appropriate section and/or footnote. —Ed Cormany (talk) 00:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

German football newspaper kicker reports that FC Porto are allowed to compete in this year's Champions League, according to UEFA's director of communications and public affairs, William Gaillard. I guess the decision came faster then expected, now it just needs to be officially published by UEFA. Hockey-holic (talk) 18:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

From my understanding, UEFA are reserving the decision for the 2009-10 UEFA Champions League season. 76.71.2.150 (talk) 03:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Codes for results tables in the group phase

The list of confirmed teams in the group stage is shown on the main page, and we need 2, or 3 letter codes to try and make the result tables of last season :)

• Chelsea - CHE
• Manchester United - MU
• Lyon - OL
• Internazionale - INT
• Real Madrid - RM
• Bayern Munich - BAY
• PSV Eindhoven - PSV
• Villarreal - VIL
• Roma - ROM
• Porto - FCP
• Werder Bremen - BRE
• Sporting CP - SCP
• Zenit St. Petersburg ZEN
• Bordeaux - BOR
• Celtic - CEL
• CFR Cluj - CFR

please feel free to post your views below // Finns 18:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you need to use FCP to avoid confusion with Portugal. I can't see why anyone could possibly get the idea that the Portuguese national team is playing in the Champions League, especially over such a minor matter, and if you start trying to dodge conflicts like that, you're opening up the possibility for ruling out just about any of those codes as being "possibly confusable" with a different meaning for the same code. Not to mention that on the vertical column, the club names are listed, meaning it's virtually impossible to mistake Porto for Portugal, short of if you were actually trying to. POR worked fine last year, can't see why this year is any different. Falastur2 (talk) 18:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

We should use the same three-letter codes as UEFA, as shown by their main page on a matchday. – PeeJay 19:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a good idea. Nevertheless, if implemented, make sure to double-check for possible conflicts within the domestic league tables (use of r2 headers is assumed). Hockey-holic (talk) 20:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Three-letter abbreviations don't have to be consistent from competition to competition. For example, Manchester United may use the abbreviation "MNU" in the Premier League, but they are often referred to as "MU" by UEFA. If there are any other such differences between the abbreviation used by the club domestically and in the Champions League, we should ignore them and use the UEFA-defined abbreviation. – PeeJay 21:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I would change the following proposals: Olympique Lyon - OL (common abbreviation for the club), Zenit St. Petersburg - ZEN (the club is usually referred to as Zenit) Hockey-holic (talk) 20:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I have made some more changes, and we should be able to ready the full list next week! // Finns 19:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Note on Zenit St. Petersburg saying TH UCUP

Since we seem to get those repeats on adding and unadding the TH UCUP to Zenit at the moment, I would like to point out, especially to those IP editors, that consensus was reached on the topic last year not to add the note. Details see below (this is a copy from last year's talk page). Hockey-holic (talk) 14:17, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Sevilla - UEFA Cup Winners 2006-07

OK, I'm getting bored of continually reverting the article whenever this gets put back in, so I thought I'd better take some friendly advice from User:RichardRundle and bring the debate here (yes, I know I should've done that sooner, and I'm sorry). So, what does everyone else think. I know there have been others who have removed this info when it has been put back in, but I'd like to see if there's anyone who thinks that, despite its irrelevance, the fact that Sevilla won last season's UEFA Cup should be kept in the article. - PeeJay 18:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it should be put in either. If we put it in we'd rather as well add all the other cup/league competitions that clubs happened to win last year (which we won't). As far as continual reverts go, I think whoever's doing it is trying out their hand at trolling (one born every minute). We'll just have to put up with it. Aheyfromhome 18:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Why has the fact, that Sevilla FC has won the UEFA Cup 2006-07, no effect on Sevilla FC, no effect on the UEFA Champions League 2007-08, and no effect on the qualification for the UEFA Champions League 2007-08? --88.77.233.180 09:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Because it doesn't have any effect. Sevilla qualified for the Champions League 07-08 by coming third in La Liga 06-07, not by winning the UEFA Cup 06-07. Winning the UEFA Cup 06-07 was merely coincidental in relation to their Champions League 07-08 qualification. - PeeJay 09:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

After AC Milan is - "(automatic qualification as title holders)", therefore showing the reason why they are in the competition. So, adding "(Winner of UEFA Cup 2006-07)" after Sevilla FC could be very easily misinterpreted as meaning that they are in this competition as a result of winning last seasons UEFA Cup. OK so most of us know that is not the case, but anyone viewing the article with no knowledge of the topic, that is without a doubt, how it would read. Therefore, Peejay is correct, it is not appropriate to keep adding into it this article. In addition it does nothing to improve the article, and it could also be argued that if the article were to include details of last seasons UEFA Cup winners, then each club that has won the UEFA Cup, CL (or even the old Cup Winers Cup) should also have that information by their clubs name. But that is clearly neither relevant nor justifiable. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 00:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

New Coefficients or What?

It would be nice to see some explanations for teams automatically qualifying for the group stage or qualifying rounds. Teams such as CFR Cluj, Zenit St.Petersberg are included in the list of teams automatically qualifyed. Please some explanation for this would be helpful. rokkafellah (talk) 19:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Cluj and Zenit are in the group stage because they won the Romanian and Russian leagues respectively. According to the UEFA Access List, the winners of those leagues qualify for the group stage directly. – PeeJay 19:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The Coefficients for leagues determine where a club enters both UEFA Champions League and UEFA Cup. A club's coefficient ranking has no bearing on where they enter. A club's coefficient ranking determines if a club is seeded or not seeded, or in the case of UEFA Champions League and UEFA Cup Group Stage, determines what pot they are in. Kingjeff (talk) 16:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Dates of matches

The dates of these matches become ambiguous after the games have been played. Even as I write folks out there are scrambling to update and edit when the games for the 3rd Qualifying round are to be played - but once they've been played the viewer has to guess as to when the games were played. There has got to be a better way to save this information and display it. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 20:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we must add dates as comments which appears when you move mouse to the result of game, for example as in ru-wiki in ru:Шаблон:ДваМатча (I don't know is there such template in en-wiki or not).--Ahonc (Talk) 21:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

When the date of the games is noted which narrows the possibilities down to one of two dates, do we need to make it more obvious? You may think so, I'm not saying you're wrong to think so, I merely ask the question. I see the marking of dates before games are played as more informative to those who want to know when they are happening, while after the game is over, the exact date becomes less relevant - if you wanted to see the game you've missed your chance anyway; the score is the important thing by then. Falastur2 ^Talk 00:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. After the match, the date becomes almost irrelevant, and when the date is on one of two consecutive days, which are listed above anyway, it's hardly worth the effort to mention it. – PeeJay 00:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

You guys must be completely out of whack in terms of the historical exactness of this event. Isn't date of occurence a reference point for encyclopediac entry. While you boys think that it is irrelevent I beg to differ. I bet that when the entry for the Final will entered that that date will be quite exact (and the massive updates that will occur while the game is in progress)! Brudder Andrusha (talk) 00:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The approximate date of occurence is already listed above the table of results, so is the exact date really necessary? – PeeJay 07:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

There are no special links to areas documenting the Qualification Rounds, but for last season in UEFA Champions League 2007-08 group stage, UEFA Champions League 2007-08 knockout stage and the final 2008 UEFA Champions League Final all have dates exactly and even time of kickoff as well. And if I were to come back next year and asked you what day FC Dynamo Kyiv played against Drogheda United in Ireland - Could you tell me exactly (without going to a different source)???? Brudder Andrusha (talk) 11:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I would ask you why exactly you wanted to know this, then check the page history for what the page looked like when the date was still listed. Falastur2 ^Talk 11:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Obviously you are a masochist!!! I go to a page of source and then you want me to weed through thousands entries in the history log! Obviously date of occurence has little meaning to you. Consistancy through the tournament of exact reference dates of an event, IMO is important!

Again I ask you the same question - And if I were to come back next year and asked you what day FC Dynamo Kyiv played against Drogheda United in Ireland - Could you tell me exactly (without going to a different source)???? From what is entered on the page you have a 50% chance of getting it wrong!!!!! Thanks encyclopedia whiz! Brudder Andrusha (talk) 12:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Does the exact date actually matter that much? It's going to be one of the two days shown above, and I don't think that the date ever has a direct effect on the result. – PeeJay 13:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Is it so difficult to add the dates?--Ahonc (Talk) 19:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It would involve changing the {{TwoLeg start}} template, and hence every {{TwoLegResult}} template on every Wikipedia page that uses it. And all to incorporate the date? I don't think so... – PeeJay 19:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Well if thats the case that you are scared of changing a template to incorporate information that IMO is worthy of been displayed - Your philosopy on templates vs what should be on wikipedia is all wrong!!!! Brudder Andrusha (talk) 21:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you actually aware of how much work would have to go into such a change? Evidently not. – PeeJay 21:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

If it will be optional parameter (which used i.e. {{#if:}}) we'll not need to change every Wikipedia page.--Ahonc (Talk) 19:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

There is also alternative variant: we can write dates in text before table, for example: "Kaunas and Ventspils played their second leg games on August 5, other games took place on August 6".--Ahonc (Talk) 19:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Or "the second leg matches were played on 6 August, with the exception of Kaunas vs Ventspils, which was played on 5 August". – PeeJay 20:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Why not give one date - and since ECLeague games are usually played on the Wednesday and use notations similiar to ground changes for games that were move to Tuesday or any other day! How hard is that???? But the fact that there are folks out there that are resistant to modifications and additions because of skrewy templates and their inability to deal with them is all wrong! Resistance to change is futile! Brudder Andrusha (talk) 21:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I think Ahonc's idea was better than what you suggest. – PeeJay 21:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

His idea is good but it has far more keystrokes than

Bunghole United - Scrapper City 2-2 1-1^[1]

• Template:Fnb played Tuesday, August 5, 2008

Brudder Andrusha (talk) 22:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Andrusha, I may ask to lower your tone a little since it is very angry and sometimes on the border to insult. Regarding the topic: Although I agree to the opinion of PeeJay and his likes that it is unnecessary to show the exact date once AFTER the game has been played, I have to make a proposal.

I disagree and strongly! I have indicated that there is an inconsistancy between the way matches are displayed in the post qualification games and with those in qualification. Games in the post qualification have exact dates given.

I think you are mixing up things. (All following examples use the 2007-08 season.) The main article does not carry any specific dates except for, of course, the final. The sub-articles, on the other hand, do indeed have exact dates to the games, but they are also more specific on their part of the overall competition. Hockey-holic (talk) 11:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

You have not answered my question as to how I can reference an encyclopedic entry for the event and know the exact date of the that event took place.

I would propose to add a link to the official match reports for every game, as it is done for the knock-off rounds as well. This should satisfy both the needs of an encyclopedic reference and the exact date issue. Hockey-holic (talk) 11:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

What about using this template? It has the option to display data which can be revealed by a mouseclick. The question of this template using fb team templates is also non-existent since all teams (except San Marino, but I will create those once the divisional alignment of this year's league has been announced) within an UEFA top-tier league have one in the meantime. An example can be seen on the current DFB Cup competition article.

I admit that the proposed templates have their issues regarding two-legged competition games, but it would be better than checking 500 pages currently using the TwoLegResult template on errors should it be altered one way or another. Hockey-holic (talk) 22:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

As a member of RSSSF [[5]] for years, I must say the annotations for the date of the game in the UEFA/ECL area are much clearer and more consistant throughout the tournament.

With so many contributors here, unfortunately there is lack of foresight for change and a blockage around templates which seem to usurp barriers for modification from the plebes around here. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 03:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Most people think that templates actually make life more difficult than it should be. I do not agree as long as the respective template is self-explanatory on the very first sight. However, the documentation section of at least the fb templates could use some improvement, as it is nearly non-existent in large parts. If there would be proper documentation, people would have fewer to no difficulties using them. But that's another topic. Hockey-holic (talk) 11:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Andrusha, it's bad form to delete warnings addressed to you, and some of your language is becoming insulting. I'd also point out that there is an ever-present tendency in Wikipedia for editors to come up with an idea for change and refuse to believe that their idea won't be included. If we are being short-sighted in not agreeing to this change you have to admit that you are being short-sighted in advocating a stance that appears to be "we should add every bit of information imaginable to Wikipedia, regardless of consensus for or against". Wikipedia's mandate is not to compile every single fact ever known in an attempt to make websites such as RSSSF entirely outdated and unnecessary. We have guidelines on relevance, length of articles and such to make sure that our data is as concise as it is helpful, and you have to admit that adding footnotes as you suggested would be an eyesore in these articles - especially consider the UEFA Cup, where your proposed footnotes would see the early stages templates be followed by several screens of notes - the UEFA Cup First Round has eighty teams in it! I'm not saying that your idea of including dates for these games is wrong, although I oppose it, but advocating a stance of "change is good, we must edit Wiki to include all change, resistance is futile!" is not right for Wikipedia, and neither, might I add, is your attempts at pushing through poorly-developed ideas such as those footnotes purely because "resistance [to change] is futile". If you really want these dates added, then I recommend you try to find a consensus, and perhaps speak to a template maker to show us a proposal for a new template including these changes which will neither be an eyesore (with screens of data purely about fixture dates) nor will add un-Godly amounts of extra text. We do technically have a 40,000kb limit, after all. Falastur2 ^Talk 11:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

In fairness, I believe Andrusha is suggesting that we state the date that the majority of matches were played on in the section's prose, and then add notes to the matches that were played on anomalous dates, i.e. "the second leg matches were played on 6 August, with exceptions noted below". By the way, Hockeyholic, I really despise that {{fb match}} template, so I won't be supporting its use. – PeeJay 11:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

As it was just a proposal, I have no problem with that. :-) To be honest, I do not expect major changes for the main article anyways. Hockey-holic (talk) 11:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, a mistaking of intent there, I apologise. But I'm still not convinced that footnotes are the right solution to this. Falastur2 ^Talk 12:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

About notes

There is such note on the page:

Team 1	Agg.Tooltip Aggregate score	Team 2	1st leg	2nd leg
Sparta Prague	1–32	Panathinaikos	1–2	0–1

• Template:Fnb Order of legs reversed

When we click on ² we go to the Note 2, but when we click on Template:Fnb we don't go to the ² (because there is not id #fn_2_back).

I suggest to change these note to (for example):

Team 1	Agg.Tooltip Aggregate score	Team 2	1st leg	2nd leg
Sparta Prague	1–3	Panathinaikos	1–2	0–1

Notes

--Ahonc (Talk) 20:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this. However, I would also suggest that all of the notes be moved to the bottom of the page, in-keeping with the MOS. All footnotes should be in a section at the bottom of the page, between the "See also" section and the "References" section. – PeeJay 20:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Why are the legs reversed in the first place? — chandler — 22:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Zenit code

Seeing as we were trying to use the UEFA codes for everything, the Supercup match center uses ZNT for Zenit rather than ZEN // Finns 19:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Better change it then. – PeeJay 19:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

On TV It uses MAN and ZEN for me. — chandler — 20:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

That's probably a code used by the TV network broadcasting the game in your area. On ITV in the UK, the codes are "MAN U" and "ZEN", but the UEFA MatchCentre says "MU" and "ZNT". – PeeJay 20:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Are there official codes of teams?--Ahonc (Talk) 13:51, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Not as such, but for the purposes of an article about a UEFA competition, I don't think it's too outlandish just to use the same abbreviations as they do. Saves on a lot of petty arguments anyway! – PeeJay 18:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that codes are not important. Each code has a link to article about team. I think that's why we can used similar codes in different tables (for example, abbreviate both Olympiques as OLY).--Ahonc (Talk) 21:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Why abbreviate Olympique Lyonnais and Olympique de Marseille as OLY when we can differentiate between the two by abbreviating to LYO and OM? – PeeJay 21:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but it will be also understandable.--Ahonc (Talk) 21:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It's perfectly understandable as it is. That's the idea behind the codes. They're supposed to be immediately recognisable as referring to the clubs they are meant to refer to. Anyway, the common names for Olympique Lyonnais and Olympique de Marseille are "Lyon" and "Marseille" respectively, which makes "LYO" and "OM" perfectly acceptable as codes for those clubs. – PeeJay 21:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

And why does Lyon use three-letter code and Marseille - two-letter? If I'll make this article I'll unify codes (LYO, MAR, MAN, ZEN...).--Ahonc (Talk) 21:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you would. However, I'm sure there are others who would disagree with your opinion of what the correct code should be. Therefore, we should use the UEFA codes to avoid arguments, as I said before. – PeeJay 21:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Names

Is there any way we can try to keep using the same name for a club all the way through the article? For instance, Anorthis Famagusta are called exactly that for the qualifying rounds, but are just called Anorthis in the group stage. This can be confusing for many reasons, and I think that whichever name (shorter, longer, doesn't matter) we settle on should be used throughout. I also don't think it would be a bad idea that if we settle on the really short versions of names (like just Bayern for Bayern Munich), we should try to stick to as short a name as possible for the rest of the clubs, again for consistency. -- Grant.Alpaugh 04:39, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I have fixed the inconsistency in the naming of Anorthosis. Also, which clubs do you think should have their names shortened? All the names seem fine to me. – PeeJay 09:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

No, what I meant was that "Bayern" is to "Anorthosis" as "Bayern Munich" is to "Anorthosis Famagusta," so whichever one we go with, we should stick with for all clubs. Examples would be just calling A.C. Milan "Milan" or Inter Milan "Inter." I guess what I'm saying is that if we're going to go with the shortest unique name possible for some clubs (which is fine), we should do so for all of them. Hopefully this clarifies the issue? -- Grant.Alpaugh 00:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you're suggesting, but which team names would you change? How extensive would this change be? Basically, I think I'd be happier to change "Anorthosis" to "Anorthosis Famagusta" and "Bayern" to "Bayern Munich" than to change all the rest. – PeeJay 07:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I guess what I'm saying is that something like CFR Cluj, if it were like AC Milan it would just be Cluj if we're going to use Milan, etc. Basically I think we should decide if we're going to use prefixes, suffixes, and location indicators in the articles. If we're going to shorten Liverpool F.C. to Liverpool, then there's no reason to use Aalborg BK, since "BK" is just the Danish form of "F.C.," AFAIK. Also, if we're going to leave the "Munich" out of FC Bayern Munich, then I don't understand why we need to include the "St. Petersburg" or "Eindhoven" in what by all accounts should just be "Zenit" and "PSV." I guess what I'm saying is that we should not include things that are not part of the name of the club (like location indicators), or the functional equivalent of "F.C." (C.D., C.F, BK, IFK, etc.), whether they are prefixes or suffixes. I've tried to do this with the CONCACAF Champions League, and once you get going, the names become much more consistent, and the rest of the community usually catches on rather easily. I think it improves the readability of the article by increasing consistency. -- Grant.Alpaugh 17:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I think this needs to be done on a case-by-case basis - e.g. I'd always just use "PSV" as that appears to be the complete name of the club and the "Eindhoven" is just added by those who don't know any better, but use "Anorthosis Famagusta" as that is the name of that club, the Famagusta bit not as thier current location (which I believe is Larnaka), but as a reminder of where they played until 1974. I'd use AaB for Aalborg, as that's what I see most Danish sources use. I'm not too bothered either way about F.C./BK etc. - fchd (talk) 19:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Shakhtar Donetsk and Porto

Shouldn't Shakhtar Donetsk and Porto switch places? Shakhtar Donetsk has more away goals.