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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 194.125.35.200 (talk) at 15:10, 31 October 2008 (→‎(Short) Statement by Sarah777). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Please note: the following sections, which were in the nature of a discussion, have been moved to the talk page: Discussion on the intro, Up and running! and WP:UNINVOLVED admin involvment.

The Ireland disambiguation task force is a workgroup of Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles), initiated for the purpose of centralising discussion on issues surrounding the use of the name "Ireland" in article names and within articles. A positive effect of this taskforce will be to free Ireland-related talk pages of much of the discussion and polling on 'Ireland naming issues' that has taken place on them over a long period, which can prevent discussion of other main-page issues. Problems have arisen because:

  • Many editors object to Republic of Ireland as a name for the article on the Irish state,
  • The alternative name Ireland is also used for a larger geographical entity (often called "the island of Ireland" or "the whole island of Ireland"),
  • Many editors oppose names based on disambiguators, such as "Ireland (state)" and "Ireland (island)",
  • The use of pipes, especially "[[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]]", which can sometimes circumvent the problem, is open to abuse, or allegations of abuse.
  • The problem is compounded by the fact that the Ireland article contains much material that belongs only in the article about the state, and that information in other articles that should link to the article on the Irish state link to the article on the island of Ireland instead.

Statement of the facts by Matt Lewis

The word "Ireland" can commonly mean either;

1) Ireland the sovereign state, also known as Republic of Ireland.

2) Ireland the island, which contains the following two political entities;

3) Ireland the country which encompassed the entire island before 1801.

The use of the word "currently" below is not intended to signify that change is likely to occur, but is used in areas where change has been suggested.

Current approach on Wikipedia

The current approach on Wikipedia is to have an article for the modern state called 'Republic of Ireland', and have a separate article called 'Ireland', that covers all the entire island's geographical and historical/cultural/political information from pre-history to the present day.

The Republic of Ireland article has been consistently pipe-linked as the word "Ireland" over the last 6 months, although it unfortunately must be noted that many of these changes (though not all of them, by any means) were performed by one person acting under several 'sock puppet' accounts. The pipe-link change has been accepted in places, although in others it hasn't.

Republic of Ireland (the modern state)

Republic of Ireland is currently the article name for the Irish state, and has been for five years. Although a change from this 'status quo' has been proposed at varying intervals in this period since the article's creation, no consensus has been found to move away from the existing approach.

Both 'Ireland' and 'Republic of Ireland' appear to fulfill the requirements for common names of the Irish state per Wikipedia's guideline on WP:COMMONNAMES. On the whole, more people globally use "Ireland" to refer to the state (which has been its official name since the new constitution in 1937), while “Republic of Ireland” is often used in the United Kingdom to disambiguate either from the island or from Northern Ireland, and is still the official legal name in UK domestic law.

In the Belfast Agreement of 1998, each government agreed to call the other by the name it calls itself, so the two states are given as "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" and "Ireland". It must also be noted that "Republic of Ireland" is recognised and sometimes used within the republic of Ireland too, even though "Ireland" is the more official name within the Irish government. The national Irish football (soccer) team is known as Republic of Ireland as per a FIFA ruling on the name.

The Republic of Ireland article currently includes a "Culture" section that includes people who precede 1921, the date the state was formed.

Ireland (the geography and history of the island)

Ireland is currently the name of the article for the island, as both a geographical entity, and a political entity: ie it covers the geography, politics and culture throughout the islands history. The name and purpose of this article is also often challenged.

There are currently many anomalies within the island of Ireland article and its sub-articles. While many of the "Main article:" links point to their respective ROI and NI sub-articles, some of the sub-articles clearly cover the island as a whole, while some are clearly ROI articles entitled "Ireland" - which may or may not have NI's information included. Some NI-only links lead to 'redirect pages' that seamlessly lead onto the equivalent ROI articles.

The meaning of "Ireland" often changes from state to island - often within a single article, and within templates too.

This Ireland disambiguation task force/cross-usage tables highlights the various naming anomalies that currently exist throughout the ROI, NI and island related articles.

Current articles in use

  • Ireland - currently used for the island as a geographical entity and its entire political and cultural history
  • Republic of Ireland - currently used for the Irish state's article, which includes its post 1921 political history, and some of its pre-1921 cultural history
  • Northern Ireland - the UK country in the northeast of the island of Ireland

Current disambiguators in use

Various phrases have been used to help disambiguate the term Ireland, both as an island and a state. As many people on Wikipedia are unhappy with the name "Republic of Ireland" for the state article, various options have been used to 'hide' it within an article's prose or text.

Pipe links hide the destination in the text (ie the word "Ireland" can be made to point to the "Republic of Ireland" article).

Note on Ireland-ROI pipelinking: Many editors have asserted the right to use the name "Ireland", as this is the name of country according to its constitution and is in common use there. Opinion is divided amongst editors on whether "Ireland" pipe-linking to ROI is acceptible: in some articles the change has been accepted, in others it hasn't. Many editors are happy the name "Ireland" being presented on the article page, including those who prefer the title "Republic of Ireland" for the state article (they are happy with the pipe-link).

Redirect links point to an actual page that immediately redirects to another article (ie the "island of Ireland" page currently redirects to the "Ireland" article).

For the Irish state:
For the island:
For the pre-1801 country:

Other recognised approaches

Other encyclopedias, like Encyclopaedia Britannica, choose to use ”Ireland” for the name of their state article. This includes all stages of the country's history, and its geographical information too. Britannia use the phrase "republic of Ireland" (small 'r') for the modern Irish state. Its Northern Ireland article is fully self contained too, which includes having its own geographical information.

"Non-forking" proposal

This opening proposal and its immediate discussion has been halted pending further taskforce-related discussion. Existing votes can be altered, but no new ones please. It is halted as an act of good faith to people who felt it was "forum shopping" (which is strongly denied by the proposer). It is possible that this proposal could become redundant, be re-started, or simply be re-opened from where it left off (with all contributors contacted). For the moment it is on pause, and is archived here.

Statement by Scolaire

Ireland

The "Ireland" article is and should be an article about the whole country of Ireland, not just about the 26-county state. A country is not the same thing as a state (the wikipedia Country article notwithstanding). To me, Ireland is a country, and the country goes from Fair Head in Country Antrim to Mizen Head in County Cork i.e. the whole island. I mean this only in the sense that if I take the train from Dublin to Belfast, I don't feel as though I'm leaving the country, whereas if I take the boat to Holyhead – which is closer – I do. The geography of Ireland is the geography of the whole country – there is no great river or mountain range separating north from south. The history of Ireland is the history of the whole country, which was one country before the Norman invasion, and still one country after the Act of Union; the current two states are less than ninety years old, and even the famous "two nations" are barely 150 years old. The economy of the country is more or less the same north and south, albeit economic policy is directed by different governments. The same languages are spoken on both sides of the border, including Ulster Scots. In other words, an article about Ireland should be an article on the country of Ireland, not the state named "Ireland". To name the article "Ireland (island)" or similar, or to make it, as some have put it, a sub-article or "fork", is to make the whole less than the parts, and that, for an encyclopædia, makes no sense whatever.

Republic of Ireland

On 17 September 2008, asked about plans for Fianna Fáil to organise in Northern Ireland, An Taoiseach, Brian Cowen said, "I am concentrating...on the strategic review of our own organisation within the Republic."[1] This was reported on the inside pages of the Irish Times. There was no comment made on his use of the term, nor was there any report of raised eyebrows at the Fianna Fáil party meeting, nor were there any letters to the paper to protest. This is ample evidence that the term "Republic of Ireland" is still common currency among Government ministers, politicians and people generally to distinguish the state of which Cowen is head of government from Northern Ireland. In all the discussions and debates I have not yet seen any reliable source showing where an Irish politician, or even a respected journalist, said straightforwardly that its use is unacceptable, objectionable or even debatable.

In a discussion on WT:IMOS there was a quote from Lord Dubs referring to "the welcome disappearance of one small but significant difference in practice between the British and Irish Governments" whereby the British Government had called the Irish Government “Government of the Republic of Ireland". I was (not unreasonably) accused of hair-splitting when I said that the quote applied only to the name by which the government was referred to, not the name by which the state was referred to, but in fact the distinction is important. Ever since the start of the Troubles the Irish Government had been trying to establish that it had a legitimate interest in determining the conduct of affairs in Northern Ireland. The use of "Government of the Republic of Ireland" by the British underlined their position that it was a "foreign" government, rather than an equal partner in the Peace Process. That attitude, and not the perpetuation of some "derogatory" name, is what changed after Good Friday. Here again I have yet to see a source that says that the British Government used, or was accused of using, "Republic of Ireland" to further a political agenda that was against Ireland's interests.

So, while I am on this task force because I know a significant number of Wikipedians object to this term, I still find the argument that it causes strife in the real world unconvincing. If we are going to change the name of the article, we need to be clear that we are doing it for a valid reason.

Note also: it is already accepted by everybody here that "Ireland" is used by most people most of the time when disambiguation is not involved, I'm pretty sure. Evidence of its use does not advance the argument against "Republic of Ireland", in my opinion.

The Constitution and the Acts of 1948 and 1949

Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland says that the name of the state is "Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland." Unambiguous, you would say. But it has to be read in the context of the original Article 2, which said, "The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas." De Valera, in framing the constitution, was saying that the state was the whole country, and that its name was Ireland. The Republic of Ireland Act 1948 was an attempt to resolve the ambiguity created by the Constitution and the External Relations Act 1936 – de Valera had consistently said that the state was a republic but had declined to introduce legislation to give effect to that statement. Fianna Fáil opposed the 1948 Bill because "its enactment at this time would seriously impair the prospects of uniting the six counties of Northern Ireland with the rest of Ireland."[2] They believed that the Republic must be achieved by re-unification before it could be declared. They never objected to the term "Republic of Ireland" per se. Why did the Bill call it a description and not a name? Because it couldn't be called a name without a constitutional amendment i.e. a referendum, and the Taoiseach, John A. Costello knew well he couldn't carry a referendum; he could barely hold on to a majority in the Dáil! Costello explained the difference by saying, "If I say that my name is Costello and that my description is that of senior counsel, I think that will be clear to anybody who wants to know." But of course if you apply that reasoning to the wording in the Bill you will come up with the statements: "Mr. Costello is a senior counsel. Ireland is a The Republic of Ireland." The second statement is meaningless! So it wasn't that kind of a description that was intended at all – it was a name, by another name. The Constitution Review Group, established by the Irish government in 1995, "considered whether the Article should be amended to include ‘Republic of’ in the name of the State." It did not recommend it because it was "satisfied that the legislative provision (section 2 of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948), which declared the description of the State to be ‘the Republic of Ireland’, is sufficient."[3] There it is in black and white: the effect of that section is to add "Republic of" to the name of the State.

The Ireland Act 1949 was intended to deal with the consequences of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948. By it the British Government agreed that the term "Republic of Ireland" could be substituted for "Eire"(sic) in the UK. So the term was not foisted on the unhappy Irish by the British in pursuit of a political agenda, it crossed the water in the opposite direction. The 1949 Act caused a storm in Ireland because of its provisions regarding the status of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom (thus fulfilling de Valera's prophesy). It's provisions relating to the term "Republic of Ireland" were wholly uncontroversial.

One of the most frequent arguments against "Republic of Ireland" in these discussions is that "it's not a name, it's a description." While I accept the sincerity and respect the obviously strong feelings of those who make the argument, in the end it's only an opinion, and it's not backed up by the sources.

Conclusions

In my view, in any restructuring of Ireland articles the country of Ireland (i.e. the whole island of Ireland) must remain the primary article. In any re-writing of that article, only that information that manifestly belongs in the state article alone should be removed. And the name of that article should be "Ireland". A disambiguation page should be named "Ireland (disambiguation)", and such a page would also include, for instance, the surname "Ireland". In naming the article on the Irish state, account must be taken of the objection of many Wikipedians to the term "Republic of Ireland", but at the same time, any assertions concerning objections to the term in the real world, or the lack of legal justification for its use, need to be backed up by reliable sources.

Irish nationalist objections to the use of "Ireland" for the 26 counties

The objections to "Republic of Ireland" by Irish-nationalist editors on WP seem to be visceral (perhaps even irrational). Here, however, is an alternative nationalist view from the real world:

Sinn Féin MLA Barry McElduff: "I suppose I am doing it to challenge partitionism – this notion that the 26 counties [Republic of Ireland] constitutes Ireland. I find it very offensive. Even in the EU I hear people talk about Ireland and Northern Ireland. Sometimes they talk about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. I’d call it geopolitical speak." (http://www.irishnews.com/appnews/540/5860/2008/7/29/593862_352672074045Lessonsgi.html)
Mooretwin (talk) 09:23, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Short) Statement by Sarah777

The claim that the "country of Ireland" is the whole island is not accurate, and that claim was abandoned by Irish nationalists as part of the Good Friday Agreement 10 years ago. Wiki claims that Northern Ireland is a "country"! If so, how much greater the claim of the South? The need to occasionally disambiguate the whole island from five sixths of it does not justify relegating the name of the Wiki article to a description used solely for disambiguation purposes. Ireland is a Republic, and the common, legal and internationally recognised name of the Irish Republic is Ireland. Calling the Wiki article 'RoI' is akin to calling the six-county article "The North"; a dab that Brian Cowen would also use in everyday speech without any fuss being raised. If Ireland the country were to expand to encompass the full extent of Ireland the Nation, it would add only half of the North; nobody seriously denies that the Protestant Unionist community in the North are not part of a different nation - least of all themselves! Sarah777 (talk) 00:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Brief comment: "Republic of Ireland" and "The North" are not equivalents. "Republic of Ireland" is a statutory name. "The North" is a mere colloquialism. Mooretwin (talk) 09:37, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No. RoI is not a statutory name. Sarah777 (talk) 14:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Er, yes it is! Mooretwin (talk) 15:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Er, no its not.194.125.35.200 (talk) 15:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Short) Statement by Waggers

This is drawn from my personal experience, not from references etc., but in my experience if someone from England is visiting Northern Ireland, they will say "I'm going to Northern Ireland"; if they're visiting the Republic, they will say "I'm going to Ireland". It's certainly true that "Ireland" could, and sometimes does, refer to the whole island as opposed to the state, but in my experience the word "Ireland" is used more for the country than the island. "Ireland" is the most common name for both, which would imply disambiguation is the best course of action, with the articles being "Ireland (island)" and "Ireland (state)" or similar. If that's not to be the case, then Sarah's [now withdrawn] proposal to have "Ireland" being the state and "Ireland (island)" for the island makes much more sense to me than the current arrangement (provided of course there's a suitable dab link at the top of the Ireland article).

That's my view on the article naming. The usage of the term Ireland within articles is far more complex - for example the sentence "X is an organisation covering the whole of Ireland" isn't clear enough, and the "Ireland" there would have to be clearly qualified (and not just by a wikilink to the relevant article - the qualification should be in the text itself): "X covers the whole state of Ireland" / "X covers the whole island of Ireland" or similar. But we probably need to agree on the naming before we get into that kind of detail. Waggers (talk) 09:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note - as User:Nuclare has pointed out on the talk page, if someone is visiting both parts of the island they're also likely to say "I'm going to Ireland", so what I've said above doesn't help that much! Waggers (talk) 13:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

commentMy experience is of English people refering to the whole population of the island as Irish whether they be Adams, Reynolds or Paisley, they're Irish.--Peter cohen (talk)

"Irish" is a different thing to "Ireland" - "Irish" is about culture and heritage, which for the most part is shared across the whole island. That doesn't equate to what people mean when they say "Ireland". Waggers (talk) 13:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement and (semi-)formal proposal by DDstretch

Having had my attention drawn to this anew after the withdrawn proposal to move Republic of Ireland to Ireland, I feel tis short statement and (semi-)formal proposal is in order here:

  1. There is disagreement about which article (the one about the country called Ireland, and the one about the island called Ireland) should have the article name "Ireland".
  2. It seems that this argument can be resolved completely by abiding by the guidelinnes as laid out in WP:DISAM.
  3. Reading the guidelines, and applying them to this problem, it appears that we have two possible entities which have the same name, and from reading the dispute, it seems neither can claim complete primacy over the other.
  4. Consequently, under section 3 of the guidelines we see that: "if there are two topics for a term but neither is considered the primary topic, then a disambiguation page is used."
  5. Therefore, I suggest that Ireland be made a disambiguation page, containing links to the article about the country and the article about the island.
  6. Details of what the titles of the specific country and island articles should be can and must be discussed later and separately. The main point now is to realise that wikipedia gives explicit guidance on what to do in these circumstances, and we should simply follow those guidelines without descending into the unhelpful kind of arguments involving accusations about each others motives, country of origin, or anything else, here or on any related article.
  7. So, the issue as I see it here, is whether or not to follow the guidelines in implementing Ireland as a disambiguation page. No other issue is relevant at this moment. If not, then editors may be asking "why not?" So, good justifications as to why not may well be expected.

Thank you.  DDStretch  (talk) 12:17, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Thank you DDStretch, seems eminently sensible. RashersTierney (talk) 13:05, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Waggers (talk) 13:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is, of course, we can't make Ireland a disambiguation page until we've decided where to put the existing content. Waggers (talk) 13:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. That is why it is only a semi-formal proposal. Once basic agreement that Ireland should be a disambiguation page is obtained, then there is an obligation to change the name of the current occupant, and I would say that the later decisions should not be able to reverse the decision to make Ireland a disambiguation page. When to implement or deploy any decisions is a bit flexible. The obvious solution may be to move it to a temporary home, accepting that its final place may be altered after further discussion. I think this solution will have the effect of concentrating the minds of people a little, and divert them away from the unsatisfactory interchanges that have plagued this entire area for far too long, or we can take this as being an entirely "in principle" type of discussion. For now, I think it is better to have this semi- formal proposal as being a statement of the basic principles that should apply here. The specifics of the implementation can come later.  DDStretch  (talk) 13:39, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. There already are Ireland (state) and Ireland (island) pages, even if they are (currently) redirections. So Ireland as a disambiguation page seems correct. Bazza (talk) 14:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would be a travesty is the Ireland page were to be relegated to being a disambiguation page. For the vast majority of people around the world - and within Ireland itself - Ireland is an island comprising all 32 counties.[citation needed][original research?] To give equal prominence to an alternative use of the word Ireland that refers to an entity covering only a part of Ireland, and which has been in existence only for 87 years compared to several millennia for the other usage, would, in my view, be wrong. The Ireland page should remain as it is. The current Republic of Ireland page should remain, in my view, as the objection to that name appears to be a visceral one rather than a rational one. If, however a decision is made to rename the Republic of Ireland article to, say "Ireland (state)", then that page should co-exist with the current "Ireland" article. If such a solution were arrived it, there must then be a pay-off whereby "Republic of Ireland" is able to be used in the texts of other articles where appropriate, without attacks by Irish-nationalist editors. It would be ludicrous, for example, for a reference to an article about Northern Ireland not to be able to refer to the Republic of Ireland: use of the term "Ireland (state)" within prose is ugly and unsatisfactory. Mooretwin (talk) 14:53, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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