Talk:Ulster Special Constabulary

Reputation

never losing their reputation amongst Republicans for brutality and partisanship,

I've just done some minor cleanups and the above chunk was a little orphaned. It's unsupported as it stands, but rather than sticking a citation tag on it I thought it would probably benefit from being taken out and written up into a full section on the force's activities and reputation. I don't have the knowledge to do it, but some coverage would be useful for the article. Tom Harris 19:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello, well I dont think it would be hard to cite sources to back it up as a statement of fact. The question is why is what republicans think of the B-Specials or the reputation of the B-specials amongst republicans remarkable in the current version of the article? I dont think it is. Fluffy999 21:53, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't suppose it is, unless as part of the police it's important that they enjoyed a poor reputation amongst part of the population they were serving. The current text is strong on their history, mergers and structure, but perhaps could be a bit stronger on their activities and their place within a broader historical Northern Ireland? As I said, I'm not a specialist; I'm impressed by the work you've done on similar articles, so I'll defer to your judgement :-) Tom Harris 19:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it was just a bit of prior POVism that went unnoticed until you came along. Many of the articles in the Northern Ireland sphere are prone to vandalism etc. Considering the service of the USC they deserve more detail as you said. Thanks for your nice comments :) Fluffy999 19:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I will not be responding to messages left on my talkpage or on pages for articles I have worked on. Will no longer be contributing to wikipedia. Thank you. Fluffy999 13:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I would dearly love to track down the source of the Anderson quotation: I have trawled through all the books referenced, and even a few others not referenced (such as Anderson's biography and various histories of Ulster). Is it from Government correspondence, and if so, where can it be found? JustinLA 10:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Tweaking

I've tweaked the article slightly to make just a couple of sentences read better and I've also included a link to the Hunt Report. I'll try to look in again soon to add more of the much needed citations.

GDD1000 (talk) 22:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I have added some fresh information with citations and tweaked what seems to be POV in a couple of cases.The Thunderer (talk) 17:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

By inserting Discipline, whilst good, was based on goodwill and administration was poor[..]They had however done a good job, despite the criticisms made against them????? You inserted only more POV. Freedscouser (talk) 03:40, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Point of view

Ok, I don't know much about wikipedia guidelines but I do know about neutral point of view, and looking in the article I can see that thethunderer has recently altered the article to the point where it has become severely slanted.

Am I alone here?Freedscouser (talk) 03:48, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I would very much agree with you on this the way it is worded now is as if Catholics were queueing up yo join but were afraid due to intimidation. Far to much weight is being used here and on other articles on the book wrote by an ex UDR member which in my opinion is far from neutral. The same would be said if an IRA member wrote a book about the UDR and it was being used as gospel. Time to start to balance out these articles. BigDunc^Talk 11:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I have made a couple of small edits this needs a lot of work due to as I stated above the amount of weight given to an ex UDR members book. BigDunc^Talk 12:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

You two have got this wrong. "The Thin Green Line" by Doherty bears out what Potter says. The important factors to note here are this:

1. Nationalists policiticians of the day did not want Catholics joining in with anything involved with the state.
2. Unionist politicians did not want Catholics joining in state institutions.
3. Some Catholics did join the USC.
4. The IRA threatened Catholic members of the USC.
5. The USC became Protestant only by dint of these FACTS.
6. Scarman and Hunt both commented that, generally, the B Specials did a good job but were deployed badly, were insufficiently trained and on occasion, badly led.

As far as I can see the objection here isn't about what the B Specials were or weren't, what they did or didn't do but largely to keep the synthesis pointing towards a deliberate anti-Catholic policy by the USC itself. That isn't the evidence which is emerging. The two books I've use so far agree and while you two might argue that Potter is ex Royal Artillery and ex-UDR, Doherty isn't, nor is he ex-RUC or B Specials. Other evidence will be available along these lines and I will find it and when I do I will include it. I don't care if it shows the B Men as brutal Protestant thugs or as impartial policemen. Whatever the evidence is it will be included. It's time to stop the politcal gerrymandering of these articles to achieve a Pro Protestant or Pro Nationalst POV. It's time for straight facts. If you don't like them then include more evidence which suits your POV and let the reader judge from factual evidence what the performance of the USC was. If you want to include evidence from books by IRA men then do so. If they're published then they are sources, and that gos for the Potter book too - it's not up to you or me to decide whose books are relevant. The Thunderer (talk) 14:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I've reworded the section on Recruitment again. Maninly because this interminable item from the BBC in 1969 was used again. What was speculated by the BBC in 1969 isn't relevant to the 1920's and to me looks slanted. It's enough to point out that Nationalist and Unionist institutions were against Catholics joining - let's use real and relevant facts here gentlemen please and don't exclude any because they hurt your own POV. That goes for me too.The Thunderer (talk) 14:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Quote

Thunderer could you give me the exact quote that backs up this assertion regarding Catholic members of the force, ...there were some in the force, even in Londonderry. Thanks BigDunc^Talk 17:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll look it up for you when I get home Dunc. About half an hour. I don't think it's an exact quote but it's very close.The Thunderer (talk) 17:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's the exact quote from p82, the Thin Green Line, it is referring to the increase in RUC force establishment needed to cope with the rising violence of the 12th of July period, 1969 and refers to "outbreaks of violence in Belfast and Londonderry", an Orange Hall being "attacked" by a "Nationalist mob" in Dungiven (one man died but the paragraph doesn't say how) and Specials firing shots over a crowd's head as they were leaving a dance and the increase in tension following these incidents:

"Another increase in force establishment was announced but the immmediate need for more manpower could only be met by mobilzing still more Specials, which led to further Nationalist criticism. One of their constant shibboleths was that the Ulster Special Constabulary was a sectarian organisation that allowed no Catholics in its ranks. This was not true: although most Specials were Protestant there were some Catholics in the force, including some in Londonderry."

Armed with that quote would you have any suggestions as to the wording? The Thunderer (talk) 18:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Changing a referenced quote

Thunderer you have changed a referenced quote please undo this edit as I have no intention of getting in to an edit war with you. BigDunc^Talk 13:38, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

You have misread the sentence. The word "Specials" was in twice and looked grammatically incorrect, the sentence still reads the same.

As for your request for a quote at your "citeref". Yes I do have a quote and will include it later when I am at home and able to quote the correct page from the book. It isn't a problem.The Thunderer (talk) 13:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

There you are old chap. Citations provided, item reworded to conform with the citations and a further incident provided of when Specials were suspected of murdering Catholics. Plus some added information on attempts to recruit Catholics to police Catholic areas and why it didn't happen. Now you can't say fairer than that, can you? I'm doing your dirty work for you by poisoning my "own" well. (using the term "own" very loosely as it isn't my article - despite assertions to the contrary by some - ahem). The Thunderer (talk) 18:48, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

And again I am reverted

I compromised and left in the text in on the USC article, but removed the links and I rearanged the paragraph so that it states that one quote says no Catholics and Scarmann says that it was hard for Catholics to join and then the rebuff from the RUC history. The Thunderer just reverts it again. And as I said last night as soon as I make an edit it is reverted now are we going to see your quick action that you applied to me applied to The Thunderer. Or am I just to be left feeling that it was victimisation.BigDunc^Talk 11:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

You weren't reverted and the note beside the change makes it clear why the change was made. The way you had written it looked as if Doherty was disagreeing with Scarman, which isn't reflected in the quote I left at your request on the talk page. Your edit of this morning is intact but I changed the grammar so that it shows Doherty's information in contrast to Farrell's but Scarman's comments come last as they aren't related to the two authors quotes. If I'm guilty of anything it's a simple matter of not leaving a note on the talk page as to why I had changed the grammar. Anyone looking at my change of this morning and reading this will see immediately why I made it. The Thunderer (talk) 11:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

So know it reads there were no catholics, yes there were, and it was hard for them to join and yes I was reverted as normal with any edit I make on one of your articles, a revert is ...any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.

No, it doesn't read there were no Catholics. It reads that Farrell alleges there were no Catholics (which needs changed slightly, because it wasn't just Farrell's assertion), then it goes on to say that is challenged by Doherty in his book and that there were SOME Catholics. Finally, in that paragraph, is the information that Scarman reported in 1969 that he felt it woould be unlikely that Catholic applications would be approved. It needs some information added to it which you had removed to restore the fact that it was almost totally Protestant to tie in with all three sources and make it read sensibly. The Thunderer (talk) 13:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

It's changed now - if you would discuss these issues beforehand we wouldn't have problems like this, nor would we have to go back in and rewrite the same piece several times. It doesn't say anything different now to what it said in the first place without the Farrell quote so why you felt it necessary to qualify the fact that there were no Catholics by including it is beyond me. You've achieved nothing except pipelinks to Farrell and Doherty's pages. The Thunderer (talk) 13:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Yes to your version you haven't changed it back to the way I had it, it still reads no catholics yes there is and Scarman saying hard for catholics. The paragraph doesnt flow goes from one angle to another and back. So as I said Black Kite any edit I make is instantly reverted. IMO the fact that it is disputed is the reason I put in the ref from Farrell, and why Thunderer had to add extra links saying that the author of the RUC is history is catholic is just an attempt to say look a catholic is even saying it. The link to the authors article states in the first line who and what he is and there is no need to add it here too. BigDunc^Talk 13:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

And now here he is changing a referenced quote from specials to others, come on please. BigDunc^Talk 13:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I have asked him on the article talk page to undo his change to the referenced quote which so far he has not done. BigDunc^Talk 13:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually I have. The Thunderer (talk) 13:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not back to my version. You included the information on Farrell and I've kept it in. All I've done is change the synthesis so it doesn't look as if Doherty was calling Scarman's word into doubt, which he wasn't, nor was he doubting Farrell's word. Doherty's assertion is that there were some Catholics in the force which goes against the general assumption of the time (and since) that there weren't any, which even I wasn't aware of. Scarman's quote is important because he failed to see how any Catholics could get into the force. That's what my original version said. All you have done is add Doherty as evidence of what my version was already telling the reader. In the context which you have now introduced it is important that the reader be aware of Farrell and Doherty's pedigree because Farrell was PD who were calling for the disbandment of the Specials BEFORE Burntollet. Farrell could be Protestant for all I know, although unlikely to be so. Doherty on the other hand is a Derry Catholic, born and bred, yet he asserts that there were some Catholic members. It is most important from an encylopedic point of view to keep the subject matter balanced and neutral from personal POV. Your next move to introduce a section on "Controversy" would seem to indicate that you want to tell the reader all the bad points about the USC, now that's well poisoning again but I'm prepared to let it stay because I have loads of quotes from Doherty about how effective the Specials were, how good they were as a counter insurgency force and WHY (most importantly) all the complaints against them would be from Catholic Nationalists who refused to take part in the apparatus of the state and who wouldn't join the USC because their leaders told them not to and the IRA threatened them. So inevitably that section will finished up just as balanced as the rest of the article but richer for the content you have paved the way for. And no, I haven't changed the quote. I just changed the word for grammatical purposes. It's still obvious that it was Specials who were alleged to have carried out the attack. I'm actually helping you now. Have fun.The Thunderer (talk) 13:48, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

What you were telling the reader is that there were catholic members I included a ref that disputed that, and as regards Doherty you added him not me. And I see your new word of the week is well poisoning very good word that but the specials well and truely did that themselves I didn't make up the facts about the murders they commited and lots and lots more along with the 2 incidents I mentioned. So should I remove this section and we can all look at them with the same rose colored spectacles that you wear. BigDunc^Talk 14:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

What I was telling readers is in the page history:

There was a general assumption that the B Specials were Protestant only. This was not true. Although Protestants were in the overwhelming majority and it was difficult for Catholics to join, there were some in the force, even in Londonderry. I later qualified this by including the Scarman quote to illustrate how difficult it would be for Catholics to join. I don't have an issue with you putting in facts about murders committed by B Specials. I wouldn't dispute they happened but I do have a source which says there was an official policy against reprisals because of the outcry against reprisal actions in the South West. The fact of the matter is: you are trying to show the B Specials, as you did with the UDR, as a totally discredited force with no attempt to show any balance or reasoning. The facts however speak for themselves; that the USC was an effective counter insurgency force which generally performed impartially. It is correct to show instances when they didn't do their duties properly (or took the law into their own hands) just as it is equally correct to show when they did. It is not correct to try and paint them blacker than black because that is a Nationalist only POV but it would be admissable to say that the Nationalist opinion of them was very low and any reasoning for it, as well as including the propaganda against them by Republican groups because they were so effective. I have partially dealt with that by putting a statement under "Disbandment" which says Since disbandment the USC has assumed a place of "almost mythic proportions" [39] within Unionist folklore, whereas in the Nationalist community they are still reviled as the Protestant only, armed wing of the Unionist government "associated with the worst examples of unfair treatment of Catholics in Northern Ireland by the police force". [40]

If your intention is to twist the synthesis on the article to make them look as if they were totally anti-Catholic with a policy against Catholics from the word go then forget it, that isn't going to happen. I trust we understand each other? Well poisoning is a very appropriate term to describe what you try to do to these articles and as long as it continues to be appropriate, I will use it. The Thunderer (talk)

Flavour of the article

Points for consideration

Gievn recent events I would like to submit some points as a possible concensus for material to be included in this article to avoid any further bickering over content.

The reader using this article for encyclopedic purposes must be made aware of:

1. Distrust between the Protestant/Unionist state of Northern Ireland and the Catholic/Nationalist Irish Free State and the influences brought to bear on both communites by political and community leaders as an extension of their policies.
2. The socio-political influences of the Irish Uprising, Tan War and Civil War.
3. That Catholics were viewed with suspicion by Protestant/Unionists - and why, and its effect upon recruitment and recruitment policies for the USC.
4. That Catholics were discouraged by church and political leaders from taking part in the apparatus of the state and that threats were issued by the IRA to deter them.
5. That propaganda was used against the USC and that some complaints and allegations made against them were mischievous.
6. Incidents in which Specials took the law into their own hands - proven as well as alleged.
7. Incidents in which the Specials acted improperly as uniformed servants of the community (opening fire in civil disturbances, undue use of force, acting as part of a mob - anything like that).
8. Occasions when the USC acted properly and impartially as servants of the community.
9. The success of the USC as a counter insurgency force.
10. The inherent differences between the Belfast constables and those in the rest of the Province.
11. Leadership, command and control issues, good and bad, whether USC or RUC.

The article should be presented as a verifiable record of this force of Special Constables which can be used for encyclopedic purposes.

It should not contain material which is deliberately slanted to make it look as if the raison d'etre of the force was to be anti-Catholic or pro-Protestant and to do that it is an absolute priority that the reader always be aware that Protestants were in support of the force and why, and that Catholics, especially Nationalists and Republicans were opposed to the force - and why.

Any editor with any knowledge of Irish affairs is likely to have an opinion or (in some cases) a natural prejudice in favour of one point of view or another. For once it would be nice to see those opinions and views set aside in favour of good, hard, verifiable facts and a non POV article.

If I've left anything out it isn't deliberate and can be added in by someone else as part of the article concensus.

May we have discussion on this? The Thunderer (talk) 09:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Attitudes and image

I have established this new section as I feel that the opinions from newspapers and other sources are partisan and are not reflecting the true circumstances of the formation of this police force or militia (whatever you want to call it). It is imperative that we keep the article in perspective and as it's likely to become quite large over time - now that it's getting attention - it is prudent to have a layout. If we can manage to keep POV material separate from the actual machinations of formation then we would be achieving something. The Thunderer (talk) 21:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

That is your opinion. --Domer48_'fenian' 21:52, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

You have just deleted material which is properly sourced and referenced. This is another instance of edit warring. I suggest you get a 3rd opinion. Failing that I shall seek protection for this article too and that is not productive. The Thunderer (talk) 22:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you get a third opinion, because to date "I feel that the opinions from newspapers and other sources are partisan and are not reflecting the true circumstances of the formation" is not good enough. --Domer48_'fenian' 22:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing to stop me expanding the article and introducing formatting to keep the various sections clear and concise. Why are you trying to prevent me from doing so and why are you deleting material which has an inline citation? The Thunderer (talk) 22:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Get a decent source and you migh stand a chance, one that is both WP:V and WP:RS. --Domer48_'fenian' 22:20, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

This has now been reported at ANI. I will not countenance another edit war. The Thunderer (talk) 22:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I've suggest ArbCom, might as well go to the top of the house. Okay, checkuser shows no evidence of abusive sock-puppetry, I suggest otherwise. --Domer48_'fenian' 22:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Please stop edit warring. The Thunderer (talk) 22:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm accusing you of abusive sock-puppetry. Now your comments and your edits support this accusation. Your a self confessed sock, and ArbCom should address it. Now I've done with you for the moment, lets see were ANI suggest. --Domer48_'fenian' 22:38, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

This has been dealt with. Your continued pursuance of this wild goose chase gets no one anywhere.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not a sock and I honestly think you should consider civility before saying things like that please. The Thunderer (talk) 22:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Editors should be reminded that they should debate the issues, not the editors. Not only is making such accusations entirely not conducive to resolving disputes and building consensus, but it suggests (correctly or incorrectly) that the factual basis for one's stand is weak and hence isn't even conducive to maintaining one's own position in a debate. If one's argument is strong and based in fact (or an earnest effort to determine facts, as I realise with many of these things the facts themselves are quite hazy and unclear due to the political and partisan issues involved and their translation into the sources available) and in Wikipedia policies/guidelines, one doesn't need to create offense or throw allegations around - the argument should then stand on its own merits. Orderinchaos 10:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The facts themselves are quite clear to be honest. It's when elements of partisan attitudes get introduced that things start to become hazy. I think it's enough to note the facts without introducing all this guff. The Thunderer (talk) 11:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Should this section not be expanded from a few comments made in the 1920's to include more viewpoints up to the 70's? Gavin Lisburn (talk) 13:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that would be perfectly appropriate. The Thunderer (talk) 13:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

History section

I have placed material from a section titled “Attitudes and Images” into the history section. Reading the history section, one would not have considered there was any tension or fears about the establishment of this force. I have included both Irish and English newspaper reports to illustrate there was concern not just in Ireland. By not including this information in the “History” section, we lose context. --Domer48_'fenian' 13:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Additons 1/11/08 Onwards

The article is being improved using material from Hezlett (listed in the bibliography). Every attempt will be made to keep the material non POV. Would all editors note that Hezlett was not a B Special, nor was he (or any of his family) in any political party, and he was not from the British Army. I invite assistance and discussion on any points which any editor may find relevant. I would appreciate proof-reading and grammar assistance.Thunderer (talk) 11:51, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

He was however a part of the British military and the book " The "B" Specials, a History of the Ulster Special Constabulary (1972) was later dismissed as merely a defence of policing in the province." --Domer48_'fenian' 12:59, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I intend to us Arming the Protestants: Formation of the Ulster Special Constabulary and the Royal Ulster Constabulary, 1920-27 by Michael Farrell, ISBN-10: 0861047052. Any comments welcome. --Domer48_'fenian' 13:21, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

He was in the establishment. My intention is to keep this article simple and free of the usual POV pushing, tit-for-tat bickering which normally goes on. Watch my editing style and see what I mean. All help welcome.Thunderer (talk) 13:52, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, so Hezlett is probably not the best book to use, having been dismissed as merely a defence of policing in the province, according to the Telegraph? --Domer48_'fenian' 14:00, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I can see where you're coming from and to that extent I agree. It is up to me to use the salient facts from the book in a way to enhance this article (it's not a rewrite) but to keep out anything which I think is any kind of a defence of the policing or establishment. There is much in his book to be ignored but he did have access to the records of the USC as he was invited by them to write the book (obviously because he would have been known to produce a favourable image). It's the extra facts I'm looking for which will, to some extent, improve the factuial reliablity of the article. I'm happy to discuss anything which you find unpalatable on an ongoing basis.Thunderer (talk) 14:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

This would have to be referenced, as it is obvious he is not talking about himself. It should also be noted that the book has been dismissed as merely a defence of policing in the province, according to the Telegraph

"When reading Hezlett it should be noted that, although he was not connected to the USC, politics, the British Army, or any of the "loyal" orders, he was an establishment figure, being a Vice Admiral in the Royal Navy. Predictably, in the world of Irish politics and inter-communal strife, he will be regarded in much the same way as the USC in that his writing will be favoured by supporters of the establishment but condemned by those who oppose it."

I would suggest in a situation like this, additional secondary sources would need to be used to support the information. --Domer48_'fenian' 15:34, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know that it needs to be referenced. You can ref it if you want but I don't see the statement as opinion or controversy. I think a statement like that takes away the heat from the article and shows that there is no attempt at slanting or synthesising it to affect the readers' opinion. It's also much more beneficial to you and I if we avoid putting in anything in the form of opinions (qualified or not) which try to re-inforce the views of either community in Ireland. If we keep the article generically aligned to the fact that there are always two schools of thought in Ireland and that they are diametrically opposed then we help the reader understand the issues of all Irish articles better. That's why I'm deliberately staying away from anything which enhances the reputation of the USC and I hope you refrain from putting in anything which is detrimental to their image. Pull me up if you think I'm straying towards POV.Thunderer (talk) 15:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Apologies, I meant attributed, as its important when writing about opinions held on a particular issue, which they clearly do. Since the author’s perspective is clearly sympathetic to the USC, this also should be noted.--Domer48_'fenian' 20:00, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be POV to express is that way but if we leave it noted that he was an establishment figure who would have been favoured by other members of the same establishment and opposed by those who weren't. I think that sums up the Irish question reasonably without expressing support for or condemning either side. Just a straightforward narrative which notes the issues, as it does, but concentrates on the force itself (in the context of the decades that it was employed during). I have given a ref to Hezlett's foreword which includes the statement that he was a Vice Admiral in the Royal Navy.Thunderer (talk) 22:43, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Could you possibly tell us who wrote the forward? Is it not important that we say that the book has been dismissed as merely a defence of policing? Who commissioned Hezlet to write a history of the Ulster Special Constabulary? I think these questions are reasonable, and on a contentious issue, were information is likely to be challenged by contradictory opinions, may need more context to qualify the nature of the source. --Domer48_'fenian' 23:09, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Hezlett wrote the foreword himself - sorry, I should have said that. I think that the "defence of policing" allegation would vary depending on who was writing an article. Hezlett wrote the book at the request of the USC Commandants so obviously they weren't expecting a hatchet job. I'm not after his opinion though, I only want the facts. I'm deliberately avoiding putting anything in which is opinion. If I find it interesting enough to include his opinion I'll make sure it is attributed to him. BTW I've been supplied with scans of some very interesting original documents from the Socialist Workers Party and the Trade Union movement in NI. Very crude, typed flyers from the early 70's concerning internment. Would you like copies?Thunderer (talk) 00:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to leave it now until tomorrow because of the time and because of the number of changes I've made. I'd be obliged for your opinion on anything which you feel isn't correct or badly worded.Thunderer (talk) 00:03, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Hezlett wrote the foreword himself? I'm really soory but I don't understand. If you read what I placed above you migh see my confusion? I'll place it here again, just to be helpful:

"When reading Hezlett it should be noted that, although he was not connected to the USC, politics, the British Army, or any of the "loyal" orders, he was an establishment figure, being a Vice Admiral in the Royal Navy. Predictably, in the world of Irish politics and inter-communal strife, he will be regarded in much the same way as the USC in that his writing will be favoured by supporters of the establishment but condemned by those who oppose it."

Is Hezlet speaking of himself in the third person? --Domer48_'fenian' 00:12, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

No, he speaks in the first person. I have reworded it to suit the purpose of the statement. Would you like to call in the mentors at this point for a little guidance for both of us? Thunderer (talk) 00:19, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Could you place the text here as it appears in the book for us to review? I still have a concern as to the reliability of the book in such a contentious area. I base this on the Telegraph first obviously, but also the views expressed by the author and the fact that it was the USC who commissioned the book. This is a view you share yourself when you say of the USC commission, “obviously they weren't expecting a hatchet job.” So if you could just provide an exact quote from the book that will obviously help. --Domer48_'fenian' 00:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Jaysus that's a lot of typing at this time of the night but here goes:

When I was approached by the ex-District Commandants of the Ulster Special Constabulary to write their history, I was already engaged on another book on a very different subject. I decided to change horses in mid-stream and comply with their request because I believed that the B Specials were the victims of political circumstances following a mendacious propaganda campaign. I thought it important that the truth should be written in the hope that the record could be set straight. My position is therefore of an advocate whose purpose is to put his clients' case. This does not mean that this book is counter-propaganda; it is what I believe to be a true history in which I have been guided by the extract from Polybius quoted on page v. I made it absolutely clear to the ex-District Commandants that I would only undertake the book on the condition that everything in it was my work alone, and it would not necessarily be a reflection of their own views. With a subject that is bound to cause controversy it is as well to declare my position. I am an Ulsterman and proud of it. Having said that I would add that I am a United Kingdom Ulsterman who has spent his entire working life outside the Province in the service of the Crown, as did my father and grandfather. We all however, unlike so many people of the North of Ireland, returned to live in the Province. For three generations we have not been members of a political party or of the Orange Order, Royal Black Institution, Apprentice Boys or any similar body, mainly because of the servicemans's dislike of politics. I describe my nationality as 'British first' and 'Irish second' in the same way as someone on the other side of the Irish Sea could be 'British' and 'Scottish'.

How'd I do?Thunderer (talk) 00:54, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

My own 2p worth. Whatever the reliability of this book, Michael Farrell's book is not RS. He admits the bias of his books himself in the preamble. He is not a neutral observer, he was described by Terrence O'Neill as an "extreme catholic", for example.Traditional unionist (talk) 11:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

As long as the book is just being used to establish facts and not to introduce elements of "The B Specials were a shower of anti-catholic gits". If you've reviewed any of my recent changes you'll see I'm staying well clear of that sort of nonsense.Thunderer (talk) 12:26, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I think we can all agree then that Hezlett is not a neutral reliable third party source. I think if we look at the text provided and the text in the article, it is clear that the text dose not directly support the information as it is presented. For example: “Predictably, in the world of Irish politics and inter-communal strife, he will be regarded in much the same way as the USC in that his writing will be favoured by supporters of the establishment but condemned by those who oppose it.”

TU would you like to expand on Michael Farrell's book, and quote from it were he admits the bias of his books him self in the preamble. Would you like to start another section, and I will not add any text by Farrell until we resolve any concerns you may have. --Domer48_'fenian' 12:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Google books doesn't have a preview of the Orange State, but his admission of bias is, I think, on page 12 of it.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the text provided gives enough context for the statement I have included. You're never going to find a neutral author amongst the Irish but as long as the books are used just to establish dates and salient facts then there is no harm done. Problems will only arise if we start to include opinion from these authors and particularly opinions which either laud or damn this gendarmerie. Thunderer (talk) 12:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the word "moderate" to describe Catholics who joined this paramilitary group. It is against every Wiki NP:POV policy. Please do not re-insert it. Sarah777 (talk) 13:15, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

It is a quote as per ref. Complain to Sir Arthur Hezlett next time you have your Ouija board out - reverted with reason given.Thunderer (talk) 13:23, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

My complaint is not with Hazlett; it is with the sloppy (?) editing that allowed his propaganda appear as part of the article text rather than as a quotation. I've fixed it now. Sarah777 (talk) 13:34, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Your anti-Hezlett opinion is noted but you should be aware by now that such text in italics is a quote. Talk about sloppy editing - what about sloppy reading. Specsavers is good I hear. In future please discuss changes such as this on the article talk page first of all then you won't embarrass yourself again by making untoward assumptions about the Imperialist anti-Irish British writers.Thunderer (talk) 13:41, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Thunderer; the word "moderate", which I removed as a weasel was restored by you claiming it was part of a Hazlett quote. The sentence containing the word was not in italics or in quotation marks. Until now. Sarah777 (talk) 13:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

“Predictably, in the world of Irish politics and inter-communal strife, he will be regarded in much the same way as the USC in that his writing will be favoured by supporters of the establishment but condemned by those who oppose it.” Is not the views of the author, but your own. Now on "establish dates and salient facts" I would draw your attention to this text you added:

“ Because of these differences which were (and still are) well aired in the media of the time, there was a general unwillingness of Catholics in the North of Ireland to take part in the organisation of the USC. The political and church personalities of the time discouraged involvement and as a result the USC became overwhelmingly Protestant from its inception, although a number of Catholics did join. ”

This is disputed by various sources, and devoid of context? Then there is this.

“ The units were organised on military lines up to company level. Platoons had two officers, a Head Constable, four sergeants and sixty special constables. ”

Is it not true that they were organised on UVF lines?

“ The Belfast units were constructed differently to those in the counties. The districts were based on the existing RIC divisions. The constables drew pistols and truncheons before going on patrol and were considerable efforts made to use them only in Protestant areas. This did free regular policemen who were generally more acceptable to residents of all areas. ”

Who were the regular policemen, since they replaced the RIC? As you can see, omission and contradiction. Is this not just Hezlett’s opinions, and did you not quote him as saying “it would not necessarily be a reflection of their own [USC] views," or anyone else’s for that matter? I have suggested above and below that if supported by secondary or third party sources it should remain, however if it is challenged by a number of sources it should be removed. --Domer48_'fenian' 13:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Continuation

The UVF were organised on British military lines, so was the Special Constabulary except in Belfast. The UVF were largely subsumed into the C1 category. In this context though it wouldn't matter how they were organised because if they had all been on police lines it wouldn't have mattered as there was a command structure. The USC was a reserve force but not called as sych because the RIC already had a "Reserve" category. So "regular" in this context means the regular police force. They are well referred to as the RIC and RUC throughout the article. I'm starting to get the feeling now that we're just arguing for the sake of it. If my editing isn't clear then I'll change it but the facts are there. There may be omissions but that'll be my fault because I'm not including everything Hezlett wrote. Nothing's being omitted intentionally and if you feel something needs to be added to qualify something then let's see if we can do so (that's you and I, not my imaginary colleagues). As long as it doesn't degenerate into A -v- B. Thunderer (talk) 13:57, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

It is my intension to remove the above mentioned text per our policy on WP:OR, as the comments and opinions of editors should not appear in Article text. I will however allow the oppertunity to address this issue, but bearing in mind it is a couple of days since I raised the issue. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Michael Farrell

TU is this the text you mention: Italics added by me.

“ This book attempts to fill the gap in the literature on Northern Ireland, by telling the story of the establishment of the Northern state and its sub history up to 1975. It is an attempt to supply a historical and political perspective to the current struggle which should remove much of the misunderstanding and confusion about what is happening here.

It is not a, impartial book (I don believe such a thing exists): it is written from an anti-imperialist and socialist stand-point. But as far as possible I have let events speak for themselves.

”

I don't think it is an "admission of bias" but pointing to an established fact. The book was described by Literary Review as “By far the most valuable account of the roots of war in Northern Ireland.” In The Times, Robert Fisk, said it was “A detailed well-sourced history.” Could you possibly draw my attention to negative reviews? Would you agree, that if the information is supported by secondary or third party sources it should be included? --Domer48_'fenian' 13:13, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

That all depends. If that information is in substance a criticism of the Ulster Special Constabulary then no, it shouldn't be included. What we want here is a non-POV article which notes the Protestant/Catholic sentiments but doesn't explore them.Thunderer (talk) 13:25, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Who is this "we" you speak of Thunderer? Sarah777 (talk) 13:36, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Is that important to you Sarah? Is this a hint of Imperialist Anti-Irish British POV tag-teaming paranoia we see? Do you think I have a team of Orangemen standing by to slant all the articles LOL. Thunderer (talk) 13:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Nah. Just that as you seemed to take an quirky esoteric view of how the article should develop I was curious whether you were using the Royal "we" or whether you were referring to a group of people with quirky preferences for this article. Sarah777 (talk) 13:58, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

If Farrell is support by independent secondary or third party sources I think it should be included even if the information is in substance a criticism of the Ulster Special Constabulary. Would you not agree? --Domer48_'fenian' 13:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Could editors please remain civil, and remember the 1RR rule as it has now been breached. This will result in sanctions and possibly page protection depriving everyone the oppertunity to edit the article. Thanks--Domer48_'fenian' 13:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

You're too nice to report him Domer! Let's wait for Rock to clip him around the ear:) Sarah777 (talk) 15:36, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Ach report my arse the two of you LOL. Domer, I know you too well. You're gagging to get something in here which is POV aren't you? Now, I'm not going to agree to that, no matter how cleverly you disguise the wording. To raise this article a class we have to concentrate on the facts of the unit itself, not the opinions of people who write about it. I'm actually not convinced that some of the material I had included earlier (some weeks ago) should stay so I may self revert. I would dearly like to see a clinical and straightforward refernce piece and I'd be delighted if you could help me do it.Thunderer (talk) 16:31, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I intend to use the Farrell book, as no reasonable argument has been put forward. I would add that Farrell has been quoted by respected academics that have specialised in this subject, and I intend to use them also. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:11, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Please stop

I’m going to walk away from the article for the rest of day, as it is not productive at the minute. Please try to remain civil, and the revert warring will have to stop. Read over WP:TPG and come back with a bit more positive and constructive proposals. The issue of what is and is not a reliable source will have to be addressed. --Domer48_'fenian' 13:59, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

If any Farrell quotes are used which suggest that the USC in any shape or form was anti-Catholic/Nationalist then that is POV. To raise the status of the article it has to remain free of all POV. Edit in facts, not Farrell or Hezlett or Doherty, or anyone else's opinion. This article must NOT turn into a collection of Loyalist -v- Republican views of the USC. As for the 1RR rule, the history is evident. Sarah reverted something which was referenced and by doing so she removed part of a quote. It's fixed now so it wasn't an edit war. If however she had discussed the matter here before doing so there would have been no need for the reversions. That's the lesson. Discuss (as you and I are doing) before deleting. If you're walking away for the moment then that's fine. There's going to be nothing done by me on this article which might provoke any kind of reaction from you. You may not agree with some of my points but as long as you continue to discuss then we'll find a way forward. I may not do much on it myself today because I have domestic tasks to perform.Thunderer (talk) 14:05, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I removed something that appeared in the text as part of the article - with nothing to indicate it was a quote - I'd clip your ears myself if I knew where to find you! Sarah777 (talk) 15:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

As far as I could see the piece was reffed properly. None of us is perfect however so if you see something like that which you think I may have inadvertantly dropped in I'd really appreciate it if you'd bear in mind that I'm trying as hard as I can to keep the article free of POV. If you draw it to my attention then I can quickly examine it. I also appreciate other editors like you reading through what I've written because, while it may seem ok at the time, sometimes a fresh eye can see that the grammar or synthesis isn't in keeping with the non POV approach. As for clipping my ear, where would you find 40 fit men to help you at this time of the day? ;) Thunderer (talk) 15:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Never had a problem finding fit men :) Sarah777 (talk) 16:03, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

You never found me - and I looked gorgeous in uniform ;) Thunderer (talk) 16:18, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Moving forward

I hope editors will reflect on yesterday and agree to move forward in a more constructive vein. If editors agree to use the WP:TPG mentioned above it will allow for productive editing.

I have some concerns to date which will have to be addressed. The first is, not to attribute motives to my intensions, such as "I know you too well. You're gagging to get something in here which is POV aren't you?...I'm not going to agree to that, no matter how cleverly you disguise the wording." This is contary to both WP:TPG, commenting on the editor and not the edits, and against our policy of WP:AGF.

The other concer I have is your view of certain types of information. Such as "If any Farrell quotes are used which suggest that the USC in any shape or form was anti-Catholic/Nationalist then that is POV." Farrell meets both our policy of WP:V and WP:RS. To exclude negative information on the USC runs contary to a balanced article. I will be using Farrell as a source, and will support the information with secondary and third party references. The information will illustrate that the force was anti-Catholic/Nationalist as to suggest otherwise would distort the article. --Domer48_'fenian' 09:01, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I would not agree to such a move. This should not be a forum for political or personal comment by authors. Nor is it the right place to note all these criticisms of the USC. The article should stick to the bare facts, be as concise and readable as possible and have no POV comments. I'll give you a for instance - for instance, let's say you put in that there were 100 B Men at Burntollet. I will immediately counter that by saying there were only 2 and one was an observer, the other lived nearby. I have a ref for that. That then becomes a set of allegations and counter allegations which detracts from the article. If you want to use Farrell to damn the USC then I can use Hezlett to praise them and counter whatever Farrell says. If you introduce another author I will introduce Doherty. Tit-for-tat according the wiki guidelines and the only real casualty is the article. I would suggest a modicum of common sense. Use whatever facts Farrell gives to show timeline features but leave out his criticisms of the force as I have left out Hezlett's praise of them. The Protestant/Catholic issue is already well noted. End of! Thunderer (talk) 11:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Not the constructive approch I was hoping for, rather negative, but I will assume good faith and overlook your suggested intensions. While editing I will look for balance and be aware that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints. I will therefor use the best and most reputable authoritative sources available. --Domer48_'fenian' 13:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

You need to be aware that it's not your views I'm challenging. I'm opposed to your interpretation of wikipedia guidleines with regards to unit histories, whether they be police, army, navy or whatever. In my considered opinion there is way for you to get this information across on other articles without it being used here where it will only serve to include POV which shouldn't be in a unit history. If I was opposed to your views I wouldn't have e-mailed you to offer documents which might be of assistance to you. An e-mail which, like all the others I send you, you haven't replied to. Courtesy isn't just for the talk pages, it should be applied in general and dialogue, on and off the pages, serves as a means of getting to understand the other editor better. I've said it before that I would enjoy sitting down to a drink with you to debate various aspects of Irish history because we could both learn from each other and I think in real conversation we'd get to appreciate each other's views better. In the meantime I am going to continue to press you and admins to prevent the inclusion of any material which praises or damns this police force. It needs to be clinical while noting the facts. Thunderer (talk) 13:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have a concern about a specific edit I make, please use WP:3O, Reliable sources noticeboard or article RFC. Like I have said above I will use the best and most reputable authoritative sources available. I hope that addresses your concerns. --Domer48_'fenian' 13:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I have concerns about every edit you make because you always introduce material which is POV and which supports an Irish Republican viewpoint. Prove me wrong - don't be putting in material which isn't relevant to a unit history. Start up an article called "Irish Nationalist views of the Ulster Special Constabulary" and link it as a sub page. That's the correct way to do it as per Milhist. Thunderer (talk) 13:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Per my previous comment. --Domer48_'fenian' 15:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Formation

"The 10,000 strong Royal Irish Constabulary were armed with pistols and rifles and were a paramilitary force/gendarmerie of a type not seen elsewhere in the United Kingdom. This was in account of the peculiar circumstances in Ireland at that time and in particular because of the frequent outbreaks of civil disturbance against the government."

This sentence will have to be addressed. The Irish War of Independance could not be described as "peculiar circumstances" or a "civil disturbance against the government?"

The use of Hezlett will have to be considered as wholly unreliable, based on the following:

In April 1920, Captain Sir Basil Brooke, future Prime Minister of Northern Ireland,[6] "organised "Fermanagh Vigilance", a vigilante group to provide defence against incursions by the IRA.[7] Other groups were formed throughout the province to patrol and defend various areas. [8] This worried the government in Dublin as sectarian rioting between Protestants and Catholics was commonplace in the major cities of Belfast and Londonderry and they did not want to see groups of armed vigilantes taking tha law into their own hands.[9] There was an immediate and illicit supply of arms available to these Protestant organisations; those which had belonged to the pre-war Ulster Volunteer Force.[10]"

This is total POV. There is absolutely no mention of the mass expulsion of Nationalists from the ship yards, the burning of their homes and forced from their communities. I can do one of two things, clarify the information, which will mean contradicting it, or completely remove it and replace it with a reference which is both WP:V and WP:RS, by respected academics. This book by Hezlett has been dismissed and is still being used here to reference very controversial information. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

No need to mention that cruft. There's nothing which needs to be addressed along those lines except for those who want to push POV, Irish Republican style. You want to put stories in about riots in the shipyards - start an article on it. This one is about the Special Constabulary. Anyway, this article covers the period to 1970 - you shouldn't be editing it.Thunderer (talk) 20:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

You have removed a template without reason, the template was a "refimprove" one, why would you do that? Please replace the template and help with the referencing. There is no such policy as "cruft" and please remaine civil. The is nothing preventing me from editing this article, so please lets work together on it --Domer48_'fenian' 20:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thunderer, I'm starting to detect WP:OWN in your approach to this article. Please restore the template. And your over-reliance on the Hazlett propaganda piece and removal of any attempt to put his writing in context is not consistent with WP:NPOV Sarah777 (talk) 20:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

No Sarah - I'm not editing the article at the minute because mediation is going on which Domer is involved in. I strongly and respectfully ask that he refrain from editing, along with me, until we've sorted out the issues under mediation. That's all - it's not POV - I promise. Nor is there any propaganda. I've put a disclaimer in on Hezlett. Thunderer (talk) 20:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Is this article subject to some mediation process? Sarah777 (talk) 20:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

No Sarah it’s not, but it is an ideal opportunity for us to work together. This comment was not helpful, reflecting the observation you make above, likewise the edit summary on this article or the comments. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I would like to move forward with my suggestions above. The section I have outlined is not an accurate reflection of the period, so I intend to re-write it using sources which are both WP:V and WP:RS, and to support this information with secondary and third party sources. Could editors put forward any issues in particular they feel need to be included? --Domer48_'fenian' 20:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I have sought an outside opinion hereon the Reliable sources/Noticeboard on the Hezlett book, and since there is a question as to it’s accuracy I intend to add counter-statements cited to other books. The web page http://www.royalulsterconstabulary.org/history3.htm which, as a "self-published" sources, means that they are reliable for some types of statements but not for others (see WP:SELFPUB). This would certainly mean they can not used to support information which is challenged by sources which are both WP:V and WP:RS. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I would like some suggestions for addressing this issue, and will leave it for a bit longer. However, it has been left now since the 6 November. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:44, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Lead Section

The lead is completely misleading, not supported by any references or the article. I’ve provided two quotes from which clearly contradict the opinions contained in the lead. Feed back from editors would be very welcome, and suggestions would also be helpful. Should Editors need any additional references which may be needed for clarity please feel free to ask, thanks.

“In its anxiety to re-establish a militant basis for resistance to republicanism which could operate independently of the British, the Unionist leadership had been obliged to concede a portion of its power to the orange section of the working class. Having done so, it strove to confer institutional and official status on the arangement. Popular Protestant practices of workplace exclusivism became linked to efforts by Carson and Craig to reconstitute the UVF and secure British government approval and funds for it and UULA-based constabularies in Belfast. One Unionist argument in trying to persuade the British to finance the constabularies was that, unless such organisations were officially sanctioned, wild and enraged protestants would take the law into their own hands. Since ‘the younger and wilder the better’ was in some areas a criterion for membership, this was ironic.”

“The formation of the state had been anticipated by the formation of one of its most critical apparatuses — an Independent paramilitary force whose populist flavour of Protestant self-assertiveness was not to be diminished by its new status The official endorsement of this spirit was to shape both state formation and Catholic attitudes to it.” Northern Irelan 1921 / 2001 Political Forces and Social Classes, Paul Bew, Peter Gibbon, Henry Patterson, Serif (London 2002) , ISBN 1 897959 38 9, pg.19

“The strategy of class alliance pursued by the Unionist middle class together with the diplomatic strategies of the British government were responsible for the establishment of a Northern Ireland state with a sectarian-populist flavour…It was not simply the establishment of a sectarian Protestant force, the B Specials, as an integral part of the security system of the new state which is worthy of note, although this was remarkable enough, but the issues of control which logically followed. It is indeed most unusual to find a regional government in possession of a paramilitary police force over which the central government had so little direct influence, and even more remarkable to find that efforts to establish a certain professionalism in the force were constantly blocked.” Northern Ireland 1921 / 2001 Political Forces and Social Classes, Paul Bew, Peter Gibbon, Henry Patterson, Serif (London 2002) , ISBN 1 897959 38 9, pg.19

I hope this reference illustrates the issue, and explains why the need for the citation tags. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Image Removal

I have removed fair use violations from this article because they are only fair use in the articles about the people in the pictures. BigDunc^Talk 20:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Removing

My information and efforts on this article are obviously annoying the republicans - so I am removing it so that the republican cabal can rewrite the article in a good old Orange Bashing style to tell the world what a shower of gits the USC were.