Talk:Paradise Lost

"On April 27, 1667 the blind, impoverished Milton sold the copyright of Paradise Lost for £10."

as copyright wasn't established until 1709, this would have

been bloody difficult for Milton to do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_copyright

Oh, I'd dearly like to add this quotation, but I don't suppose it would really be appropriate:

He said: "Oh, don't talk about rewards. Look at Milton, who only got £5 for 'Paradise Lost.'

"And a great deal too much," I rejoined promptly. "I would have given him twice as much myself not to have written it at all."

—Samuel Butler, The Way of All Flesh

And, of course, A. E. Housman: "Malt does more than Milton can/To justify God's ways to Man."

---

Someone, please take time to revert the blanket paragraph marker deletions by anonymous user. Revolver 00:52, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC) Recently, I updated the links to Project Gutenberg texts to link to the bibliographic records that are now availible instead of linking straight to a text file. I see it has been changed back. Is this unacceptable for some reason?

Blake quote

The Blake quote about Milton being "of the Devil's party without knowing it" is given, as it is often given elsewhere, as if Blake himself definitely believed it, but I think that's far from certain. Those words are ascribed to "the voice of the Devil" in the Marriage of Heaven and Hell. Blake was very much interested in presenting contradictory truths and states of mind in his work, so I feel it is simplistic to simply present it as "Blake thought this..." when his opinion of Milton was probably more multi-faceted than the words he puts in the mouth of one of his characters. TheEvilPanda 16:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Complete rewrite

I am working in a complete rewrite of this article, since there are many factual inconsistencies, misconceptions and misreadings. The mentioning of Cromwell as a means to justify's Milton's choice of protagonist (another misconception) is particularly innacurate, so is the view of Milton's conception of the Trinity. The section on Context is very weak; Legacy is lacking; and "See also" is very misleading, reading as if the documentaries are about Milton's poem. I expect to put a new version up within the week, and would encourage you to check and improve.

I would also like a re-write of this article, but my concern lies within grammar. I noticed too many grammatical flaws throughout the article, which merit corrections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.233.115.3 (talk • contribs) 10:45, April 13, 2007

Version of publication

"A second edition followed in 1674, redivided into twelve books" This is mentioned in the first paragraph, but the picture on the right showing the cover of the second edition says: "A Poem in Ten Books". Which is correct? Crowley 14:26, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)Crowley

The caption must be wrong, then. The main difference between the first and second editions is the number of books, ten on the first and twelve on the second. Sdicht 19:26, 15 Apr 2005

Removal of material

I see someone has removed material on "iconography." I understand that there are scholars who may prefer the article to be specifically about the poem Paradise Lost, but the greatness of the epic is measured by it's impact, which should be discussed. In fact the relevance of the iconography material should have been discussed before deletion! The essence of scholarship is the ongoing dialog among scholars which advances the understanding of a subject. I will not revert the article, but would like to hear the opinions of others on this matter. S. H. Ryke

Trinity

I don't think it is appropriate to present Milton's view of the Trinity as a factual matter, since it is the subject of considerable controversy, particularly since Milton's authorship of the Christian Doctrine (De Doctrina Christiana)--on which most work on JM's trinitarianism or lack thereof has been based--has been disputed by William B. Hunter and others. Better to represent it as a crux for scholars and as ambiguous within the poem itself. Chick Bowen 22:43, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Satan as hero

I see that someone has rewritten the bit about Satan being the hero. Given the academic discussions over this subject, I suggest that neutrality is kept in this respect. Some critics DO believe that Satan is the hero, while some others do not. The way it was before was more neutral, now it's just stating that he is a "true hero", and so on. Sdicht 22:43, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

there are a ton of errors in this section, mostly due to poor diction. Im working on rendering a more precise article. it should be noted that satan is can be viewed as both the anti-hero and hero of the epic, and that there exist arguments supporting both. Satan's status as a "true hero" is a very difficult assertion to prove and given the evidence for the argument of his status as the anti-hero, should probably be reworded.

Whether or not Satan is the hero of the piece of not is besides the point. What is pertinent is that Satan is undeniably presented in a more positive light than would usually be expected thus inducing William Blake's comment about Milton being 'of the Devil's lot without knowing it'. This then opens up a mass of highly interesting literary criticism about the reasons for this presentation of Satan. Some argue that Milton presented the character in such a way because his exegesis of the Bible led him to view Satan as such. Others believe, as I personally do, that Milton presented the character of Satan in the way he did to make the reader of his poem Fall along with Adam & Eve thus making them empathise with Adam and especially Eve and understand what was so attractive about Satan's argument which meant they allowed themselves to commit the ultimate sin. Many also view Milton's well-documented anti-Monarchist sentiments as a reason for his presentation of Satan. Considering this article is on the subject of one of the greatest, most epic and influential pieces of poetry in the English language there is a lamentable lack of content on the vast amount of literary criticism which it has inspired. This should be corrected and perhaps this comment can help begin the process. Robsonm 19:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

But the earliest person recorded as saying that Satan was the hero was Dryden, a monarchist opposed to Milton's republican sentiment. To the above commentator: if you believe that Milton thought Satan a positive character, you would probably believe that Milton was in favor of lying (Satan to the angels) mind control (Satan to Eve as she slept), rape and incest (Satan to his daughter), suborning an election, and condemning every single being on a planet that had caused him no harm to pain and death. Yes, some people can justify these actions: I live in a country whose administration supports torture and destruction of the constitution. "Necessity, the tyrant's plea." But given that the narrative voice condemns the (socially heinous) actions performed in the text, it would take extraordinary pleading to make the case that Milton supported those actions or the character that does them.

Because "Satan as hero" is secondary, I would urge elimination of the assertion in the earlier part of the article, confining all discussion to this section. 128.147.38.10 13:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not assert that Satan is presented as a positive character by Milton. I merely make the point that given the amount of atrocities which Satan commits throughout the poem, which the above commentator so helpfully lists at great length, the epic language and imagery which so often surrounds the character of Satan is somewhat surprising. I assert that Milton uses this technique of employing epic language to make the reader of his poem understand why it was that Eve so easily fell under his influence and di as he commanded: the reader finds themselves fascinated by the character of Satan and it is this which helps them understand why Eve acts in the way that she does. I am not in any way saying that Milton condones what the character of Satan does. Robsonm 15:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

In the article Satan is called a protagonist, surely there could be a better title, I looked up the meaning and the definition i suppose is true, leader of the story... not always good. However it needs to be clearer that Satan is the personification of evil. In the books, he is against God, trying to 'get back at him' or destroy him. God is omnipotent and the entity of good, surely he would be better listed as an antagonist... or maybe someone could find a middle definition if they do not wish to see God as a protagonist. ~ Mitsunari 11:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

You could call him a tragic hero. Jiakopa was (not) here (talk) 12:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that Satan's character analysis is tempered with some religious preconceptions, rather than what Paradise Lost actually says. For instance, it describes him as narcissistic five times in one short passage. In Paradise Lost, he is presented as very proud; but narcissistic is a different matter. The only proof that is given for this 'character analysis' is the fact that Death was a result of his incestuous union with Sin. But that's incest-- not narcissism. There are several other statements which are correct in general religious terms, but aren't supported by quotes from Paradise Lost. Satan is described as 'delusional' several times. Now, in Paradise Lost it was very clear that he was perfectly aware of what he was doing and what the results would be. The argument that Satan was delusional because 'Sin and Death can both be read as delusions of Satan’s mind' is weak. It suggests that he was hallucinating. Sin and Death might have only been symbols, but that doesn't mean Satan is mentally ill. It was Milton's choice to present them as anthropomorphic personifications (borrowing from Terry Pratchett there.)

There's an excellent article at http://www.essortment.com/all/satanparadisel_rsng.htm which suggests the following exercise: replace Satan's name with 'Robert', and then treat him as an ordinary character. Then you get rid of your preconceptions (yes, everyone knows that Satan's evil) and you can analyse him much more accurately, like any other character in a poem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.236.247 (talk) 08:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The critic John Carey wrote a great deal about Satan as a hero (I believe the Cambridge Collections is the best place to find this writing). He argued that many of Satan's soliloquies (particularly those in Books IX and X) were written separately and written with the accessibility of the dramatic, rather than the distance of an epic. Particularly compared with the angry/vengeful God (it is Jesus who is the more forgiving/attractive) who is quite distant and speaks little comparatively, this means that Satan becomes quite attractive. As Satan is certainly written in the form of an epic hero (soliloquies, etc), he is the only character with any depth: you see his thought process in a way that you see no other character's (until Adam post Eve's fall debates whether or not he should join her) and he tells of events that are not described through narrative in Paradise Lost - for example the angels' rebellion. Even if you disagree with this, it must be argued that he is an easier character to write: I'm sure Milton would have agreed we have better sympathies with Satan as we are sinful beings than we do with God as we cannot truly comprehend perfection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.44.47.85 (talk) 11:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the current lead ("the Romantics began to regard Satan as the protagonist of the epic") could do with improvement. I don't think anyone could seriously deny that Satan is the _protagonist_; the question is whether or not he's the _hero_. "Hero" would be acceptable in the lead sentence, IMO. 78.105.161.182 (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Redirects

With the three redirects to other items, the top of the article looks clunky. Would it make sense to replace these three with a link to a redirect page? i.e., searching for "Paradise Lost" brings one to this article, but clicking on the redirect link shows one the various other options? Mgriffin 16:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Description of Eve

A friend of mine brought this to my attention. In the description of Eve, when they mention that Eve is absent from the learning, it makes it seem like she is absent by choice. The only real time she is absent by choice is during the conversation with Raphael in Books 5 - 6. During the conversation with Michael and Adam in books 11 - 12 Michael puts Eve to sleep and takes Adam up to the hill so he can tell Adam about the sins of mankind and then the coming of Jesus / return to paradise. Eve learns through Adam and through her dreams (book 11/12). Should we revise this?

At one point she does say that she prefers to learn things as told by Adam. This is part of the whole misogynist claim. If she does so by choice at that point, one should check the poem carefully, but it does sound reasonable. - Sdicht

Vandalism repair

I've just completed an attempted repair of, what I took to be, some old vandalism from August 7, 2005. God (or Satan) knows whether I've done this correctly, not being up on my Milton scholarship. I'd appreciate it if someone who knows something about this, would please check my work. Thanks — Paul August ☎ 22:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it's better now. I think that academic current of Satan mimicking other epic heroes was fronted by Barbara Johnson but I'm not sure, I'll have to check on that. Nice going on Stanley Fish there. Sdicht 22:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Eve

"It is wrong, however, to think that Milton is denigrating women through his depiction of Eve." - Why is it wrong to think that? It may be wrong to say that Milton is deliberately denigrating women, but claiming that Milton's characterization of Eve was pure "social commentary" reeks of subtle revisionism to me. As with many other questionable claims this article makes, a citation or attestation is urgently needed. Wikipedia's job is not to analyze books, it is to report on noteworthy analysis of books reputable sources have made (which should be especially easy for a book as noteworthy as Paradise Lost). -Silence 09:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Spot on - I've deleted the offending sentence. A lot more could do with rewriting, too, as much of this article is very un-Wikilike. As other editors have observed, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not lit crit. I admit it's a hard balance to strike, because it's difficult to write an article of the length PL deserves without getting stuck into some criticism. However, the whole point of criticism is that it is necessarily NPOV. Bedesboy 09:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if it is worth mentioning but I would like to mention that the narrator, a fallen human, and Satan are the "characters" that usually depict Eve as inferior to Adam. In my reading, and in some of the literary criticisms I’ve seen, I noticed that Eve's position to Adam seems equivalent to that between God the Father and God the Son, distinct but equal. I don't think that Milton was necessarily immune from the social prejudices of his day but I see that, at least before the fall, Adam and Eve could be viewed as equal. Clearly this is not simply social commentary but Milton may have well been expressing some rather advanced ideas on the place of women. It may not be a wide-spread enough belief to warrant mention but I thought that it might be good to have this view available for consideration.

Contemporary References

I've parsed out individual references, it seemed far too jumbled to be of any particular use. However I took care not to change anything outside of format. -Loki's Valentine

Plagiarism

A part of this article seems to be plagiarized from Sparksnotes. From first glance, I can find one sentence that is directly copied from SparksNotes:

"Satan is far from being the story's object of admiration." http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/paradiselost/canalysis.html

I would suggest either adding Sparksnotes as a source or removing that sentence, as it infringes upon copyright terms.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.101.207 (talk • contribs) December 11, 2006

This edit seems to have introduced material from the Sparksnote link above, probably in violation of copyright. This needs fixing. Paul August ☎ 05:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've reverted to the last version prior to the edit above. And I've tried to restore some of the good material from newer versions. But alot of material has been lost. Paul August ☎ 06:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Characterization of God

The last two sentences of the introduction seem oversimplified and might even mischaracterize the poem. If the Father is sarcastic, there ought to be cited evidence of sarcasm (or perhaps a passage from the poem?), since sarcasm is such a heavy charge to level. The Father's "irascibility" is subjective (He is angry, but is He easily provoked to anger?). While the Son's sacrifice is clearly meant to be viewed as generous, "optimism" as a contrast forthe Father is an odd choice of wording given that Milton's Father is clearly omniscient.

One piece of criticism I've read noted the distance that we as 20th/21st century readers experience the poem from; the difference in our experience from Milton's contemporaries colors our experience and makes some of the quick judgments we might make about the characters questionable.

The text in question is: "He presents a Father who is good but irascible and sarcastic, and a Son who is generous and optimistic. The Son serves as a "vessel" for the Father's more good-natured aspect."

68.163.133.90 12:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The idea that Milton wrote his epic with Satan as protagonist is ridiculous. Equally inane is the idea that Milton was an Arian. Why is an article about one of the foremost works of English literature such a crapfest?

Is it ridiculuous? John Dryden thought so, at least in the term's technical sense (Preface to Fables). As for Milton's Arianism, there is ample historical and poetic evidence to support it, and he advances his disbelief in the coeternity of the Father and Son explicitly in Christian Doctrine V, which you may want to reread. Esquilax8 09:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This page reads like an essay written on "PL" for a college literature course

I have added several new tags to this article, because there seem to be several major and consistent problems with this page. Many sections (but especially the Characters section) give "analysis" that one might find written on an in-class exam for a literature course... almost NO sources are cited throughout this article. Although much of this page does offer thoughtful discussion, and it does offer interesting points, these points need to be supported with citations from scholars, literary critics, and historians. As someone who truly loves PL, I think we all need to make a concerted effort to bring this great epic work's article up to an acceptable level of quality. Rellman 01:42, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

See section below. Paul August ☎ 02:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

"Main characters" section removed as copyvio

I've removed the "Main characters" section since most of it is copied from: http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/paradiselost/canalysis.html Paul August ☎ 02:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Cultural significance

I had a go at framing the section on 'cultural significance' with some unifying remarks on Milton's intentions and effect on humanism in literature. I think this section deserved a bit more than the grab-bag of popular culture references that seem to inhabit it at present. Mercurius (talk) 20:35, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Classical Greek tradition

I disagree with the following section:

"The story is innovative in that it attempts to reconcile the Christian and Pagan traditions: like Shakespeare, Milton found Christian theology lacking, requiring something more. He tries to incorporate Paganism, classical Greek references and Christianity within the story. He greatly admired the classics but intended this work to surpass them."

The presence of Greek background is true, but it is not innovative.

Greek philosphy was brought into Christianity centuries before by Thomas Aquinas, who quoted Aristotle extensively in his SUMMA. Dante's DIVINE COMEDY uses mythological imagery even more than Milton, including Homeric-style invocations of the Muses. Pope Julius II even commissioned Raphael to paint a mural of the Greek gods and goddesses (PARNASSUS) for his study; it's still there. Michelangeo's LAST JUDGEMENT included the mythological image of Chiron conducting sinners into Hell (following Dante). In short, mixing pagan ideas into a Christian literary work was not at all unusual; the church's attitude seemed to have been that pagan symbolism and ideas were acceptable as long as they supported a Christian theme. CharlesTheBold 14:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It goes back even earlier, Saint Augustine cast Christian theology in a Neoplatonic mold in the 4th and 5th centuries CE.--216.127.193.103 22:15, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

An Unusual Milton's Birthday celebration

Thought you all might liie to know about this: Williamsburg Art & Historical Center Celebrates John Milton’s 400th Birthday

The UNRIVALED arts festival honoring Milton’s birthday and Paradise lost, the greatest poem in the English language September 27th thru November 2nd, 2008 Opening with the

THE GRAND PARADISE LOST COSTUME BALL September 27th 8pm to midnite http://wahcenter.net/exhibits/2008/milton400/ Williamsburg Resident (talk) 13:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for that but Wikipedia is not for advertising. It seems we've missed it anyway. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 17:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Notes on language

It seems strange that there are no sections on the character of Paradise Lost's language. Certainly, it is useful for a reader to know about certain facts like the fact that Paradise Lost often uses Latin sentence constructions.

Should I add a section on Paradise Lost's language? Is that alright? What do you think? I have a few books for reference on this area. --Xenonoxide (talk) 12:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good as long as your sources are of a good quality. I know John Dryden similarly constructed his sentences this way and it's interesting to see how Latin permeated the English language at this point in history. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 13:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

External link to digital facsimile of PL book 1 manuscript

Please consider adding the following external link:

http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/milton.asp

This presentation includes a digital facsimile of every page of the original manuscript of Book 1 (the only surviving copy dictated by Milton to a scribe). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morganlibrary (talk • contribs) 02:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Novels Project

Why is this in this? Unless there is some arcane EngLit theoretical justification, produced in the next few days, I will remove it. Johnbod (talk) 03:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Judeo-Christianity

Paradise Lost is the work of a Christian, with a Christian mindset, to call it anything remotely "Judeo-" is misleading. When I spoke to my English professor about it, he concurred. It should changed to "Christian".