Talk:German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war

Soviet reprisals against former POWs

The statement that most liberated soviet POW's were sent to Gulag camps is false. Out of 1 836 562 Soviet POW's that returned from captivity, 233 400 were sent to NKVD administered camps. Source: Russia and USSR, Military losses, Statistical study, under general supervision of professor general-colonel G.F.Krivosheev (http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/chapter5_13_08.html). 12.7% of something hardly constitute MOST of something. Thus, I am changing "most" back to "some" and removing the reference that contradicts this highly reliable study. With respect, Ko Soi IX (talk) 08:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not good enough. The reference is itself reliable. What you should do is include both references and souces, not try to obliterrate one you don't like and leave the passage unreferenced. Paul B (talk) 11:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I will have to disagree. The reference does not show how they came to such a conclusion, nor even gives any numbers. If we had an article like that here, people would want a source for such a claim. Considering that it contradicts archival research done by Krivosheev's crew, I think that it should not be given undue weight. Personally, I would prefer it removed completely, because I smell cold war era BS. With respect, Ko Soi IX (talk) 14:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't speak Russian, so I had to read your source through translation software, but it seems like a tub-thumping patriotic site rather than an objective resource. Nevertheless I have included it along with the USHMM. Paul B (talk) 11:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It's written in Soviet-type language, even though it was published in first in 1993 (if not later). Also, what you wrote is not at all what I sited. There was nothing said or written about the majority of collaborators being unpunished. The point was, out of those that returned, most were NOT collaborators, and as such, they were not prosecuted. With respect, Ko Soi IX (talk) 14:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Well I could have phrased it better, that's for sure. I wrote "a minority of known collaborators". I meant 'a minority of prisoners; those who were known to be collaborators' not 'a minority of those who were collaborators'. Nevertheless the fact remains that you can't simply obliterate what a reliable source says and insist that your alternative source must be true. Paul B (talk) 17:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I now see that you didn't delete it but moved it. Paul B (talk) 17:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

So, what do you think, is it better now? Also, about Krivosheev. I probably misinformed you a bit with my first not so considerate changes; the research wasn't done by Krivosheev, it was carried out by a whole group of military historians, since the amount of work that had to be done was enormous. Krivosheev was the head of the research team, but referring to this work as done BY him is not correct. This is my mistake, yet I'm not too sure how to phrase it better. With respect, Ko Soi IX (talk) 18:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

From Rolf-Dieter Müller, Gerd R. Ueberschär, Hitler's War in the East, 1941-1945: A Critical Assessment, p.219: In the past, Soviet historians engaged for the most part in a disinformation campaign about the extent of the prisoner-of- war problem in order to squelch any discussion of the share of the guilt borne by Soviet leaders. In the official works published under the title of The Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union, prisoners of war were not discussed. The few studies that mentioned captured Soviet soldiers at all portrayed them only as putting up heroic resistance in the Nazi camps (Brodski, E. A. Vo imja pobedy nad fasizmom. Antifasistkaja bor'ba sovetskich ljudej v gitelrowskoj Germanii (1941-1945 gg.). Moscow, 1970) The first comprehensive study of Soviet prisoners of war, by EA Brodsky, was finally published in 1987, twenty-five years after it had been written (Oni ne propali bez ujesti. Ne slomlennije fasistkoj nevolej. Moscow, 1987). The memoirs of four Soviet prisoners of war, published under the patronage of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, were also prevented from reaching a larger audience (No 62). The memoirs of four Soviet prisoners of war, published under the patronage of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, were also prevented from reaching a larger audience (Ceron F. Ia. Nemeckij pleni-sovetskoe osvobozdene, Paris 1987). The first account of the repatriation problem available to Soviet readers was written by VN. Zemskov ("K voprosy repatriacii sovetskich grazdan 1944-1945 gody" Istorija SSR no4 (1990): pp 28 ff).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Right. If you want to correct something in this or "Soviet historiography" article, please do.Biophys (talk) 06:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I may; I have stumbled upon this topic thanks to a discussion at Talk:Siege of Brest (1941) and the stimulating as usual comments of certain editor there :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, the entry above does not bode well with you habit of going around with the encouraging "civility talk". --Irpen 06:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The first paragraph tells about 19% exPOWs in penal batalions, 14.5% in reconstruction battalions and 8% convicted. 19+14.5+8=41.5%. I have a little bit other data, but even these number tell us that bigger part of exPOWs returned to civilian life. In addition to that, reconstruction battalions was not a penalty, but a kind of military service. Taking into account that, for instance, only 3 of every 100 men born in 1923 survived by the end of the war, there was simply a dramatic lack of labour force. Those POWs returned to completely destroyed country, and no one was able to give them a possibility to recover. Please, keep that in mind when you wright something.
I added a final paragraph that contains data from Zemskov's paper in the American Historical Review, 1993, and from another academic source, they show slightly different but generally consistent numbers. However, it seems to me that this section has became a completely self-contradictory. Probably, that is what people call NPOW, but maybe it makes sense to rewrite it?
--Paul Siebert (talk) 06:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

A source

Can anybody check what year is the linked research of G.F. Krivosheev from? If it is late 80s or more modern, it is much more reliable than if would be published earlier (per above).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I looked at this link, allegedly to work of G.F. Krivosheev. This site is not a reliable source. As very common for unreliable sources, it does not provide any publication date, and it is not quite clear who is the author. I went to the main page of this site and found at the very top the following: "Россия, слышишь страшный зуд? Жидомасоны в Президенты прут." So, this site promotes the worldwide Jewish conspiracy theory and describes (in obscene expressions) Russian presidential candidate Andrei Vladimirovich Bogdanov as such conspirator... I doubt that Grigoriy Krivosheev is notable enough for WP.Biophys (talk) 00:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Biophys, it is always best to check before casting doubt, especially on the living person. This Google books search takes 10 seconds and does not even require a subscription. --Irpen 06:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Biophys, would you doubt Kozma Prutkov if you had his work available on a some kind of supremacy site? With respect, Ko Soi IX (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The book originally was published in 1993, than it was expanded and corrected for the "second edition", which was published in Moskow by Olma-Press in 2001. The latter is quoted from the www.soldat.ru site. Personally, for whatever it's worth, I have checked some random numbers with both the paper and some other on-line versions and www.soldat.ru is, in my opinion, considerably apt in hosting the book. The book itself is not perfect of course. With respect, Ko Soi IX (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Splitting the section

I think this section should be split off, the subject is notable and it is confusing to have to look for it (and find it in) "Extermination of Soviet prisoners of war by Nazi Germany".--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree; this could be only briefly mentioned here.Biophys (talk) 00:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

"140,000 up to 500,000 were executed in the concentration camps"

Wrote USHMM website. But I listed the cases, and it seems more like "about 140,000 period" (including the SS camp Birkenau). Wht do you think about it? --HanzoHattori 12:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, I fixed it. --HanzoHattori (talk) 22:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Other site of massacres

Some Soviet POWs also died at the Ponary massacre place.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Large scale edits by User:84.234.60.154

I reverted all of User:84.234.60.154's recent edits, including some sections that appeared to have useful references. The reason is that User:84.234.60.154 was deleting previously referenced material without discussion. For instance, User:84.234.60.154 changed the referenced death toll estimate of 2.8-3.5 million to an unreferenced estimate of 3.3-3.5 million. I invite User:84.234.60.154 to return his or her edits to the article but each one should be accompanied by a suitable reference. Binksternet (talk) 05:56, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

This seems to be referenced right now, and the estimates are similar. I think the article is visibly improved after his/her edits.Biophys (talk) 18:33, 24 February 2008 (UTC) Unfortunately, it was you who reverted work of another editor without any discussion: [1]. If you think that something is going wrong, please explain here what exactly you think is wrong and disccus this with others.Biophys (talk) 00:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Comparing Soviet POW deaths to German POW deaths

Why is this comparison being made? The Soviets didn't commit genocide and try to exterminate their prisoners like the Germans did. From what I've read, including notes of German survivors, the Soviets did their best with what they had. It looks like some sort of Nazi apologist POV push, trying to imply either that it wasn't "that bad", or the Soviets were "just as bad", neither of which is anything close to true. As it stands there's no rationale to keep this comparison. This article isn't about comparing numbers, it's about actions, the act of extermination and genocide. It's not right to compare unavoidable deaths to murders.LokiiT (talk) 05:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The Soviets also just were not taking prisoners in the first weeks of the war. At all. The medals were for the certain number of the KILLED Germans. This changed only when they needed them to march them through Moscow. Another example: After the Soviets took one city in Bagration, they killed 6,000 wounded the Germans left behind. And so on. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It took until the Battle of Stalingrad for the Soviet government to issue a remarkably forward-thinking official stance on the treatment of POWs. Divisions at the front were told in no uncertain terms to treat German POWs carefully and properly, to feed them and not make them march too far. A number of aspects of POW care were covered in detail. The edict had a very limited positive effect; most Soviet soldiers just didn't give a shit about caring for Axis soldiers, and continued to starve them, deny them medical attention, expose them to the elements, force-march them too far and to shoot them when they felt like it. One group of 125,000 Italian POWs taken at Stalingrad was marched, frozen, shot and starved until only 12,000 were left. Binksternet (talk) 20:25, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I inserted two phrases for the sake of WP:NPOV and because that is an encyclopedic content. A reader probably would like to learn the other side of the story. Thus, a very brief info in this article is fine. If we had something like Japanese prisoners of war in the Soviet Union about German POWs, that info could be placed there. But we do not have German prisoners of war in the Soviet Union.Biophys (talk) 21:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC) 1 million figure was given in "Black Book".Biophys (talk) 21:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not a neutral point of view issue because the number of German POWs who died has nothing to do with the extermination of Soviet POWs. The insertion of that figure falls under the category of original research, unless you can provide an article on this very topic that makes that specific comparison.

• "This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position....you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article"LokiiT (talk) 23:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

What OR are you talking about? That is your diff. You have deleted a text supported by two academic books and other reliable sources.Biophys (talk) 01:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I just explained it to you. It's original research/synthesis, the source doesn't make any comparisons between German and Soviet deaths in POWs because the comparison is meaningless. It just looks like a Nazi apologist inserted it to say "hey, look how many Germans died in Soviet camps, they're just as bad!" but as I already explained, the comparison makes no sense. When you insert that figure and make the comparison, you're making an "unpublished analysis". Do you understand what I mean? If not, please read through WP:Original research more thoroughly. LokiiT (talk) 02:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It was me who inserted this text for the sake of NPOV as explained above. Do you mean that I am "a Nazi apologist" as you said? Inserting a text about Gulag does not mean to be an apologist of anything. OR is something that is not in reliable sources. The inserted text is sourced. Anne Applebaum specifically compared Soviet and German extermination camps (the text about similar death rates), so this is not OR.Biophys (talk) 03:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I highly doubt the credibility of Anne Applebaum if that's the case, because there were no Soviet extermination camps. There were labor camps, and of course there were executions, food shortages and many tragic deaths, but there was no genocide taking place in Soviet camps like there was in German camps. Can you please cite the page that quote is on? But regardless, I have to stress my original point that the number of German POW deaths has nothing to do with the number of Soviets murdered in German camps, which is why it's original research.LokiiT (talk) 03:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You just said: "there were no Soviet extermination camps" Did you ever read Alexander Solzhenitsyn? How did he called them? "Istrebitel'no-trudovye". Translation: "extermination by labor". Sure, I can provide exact citation with page for Applebaum.Biophys (talk) 03:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Alexander Solzhenitsyn doesn't make up definitions of words and his opinion isn't authoritative. I could find you people who claim the Iraq war is a genocide, but that doesn't mean it is and that doesn't mean we should put that in wikipedia. LokiiT (talk) 07:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Word "extermination" was not included in text.Biophys (talk) 14:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

This is not original research. It's data documented by a known researcher. The only discussion taking place here is whether this information should be incorporated into the article, and, if "yes", how it should be incorporated. Binksternet (talk) 04:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

If you can incorporate this information better, please do. I though briefly mentioning this somewhere was appropriate.Biophys (talk) 04:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

" I could find you people who claim the Iraq war is a genocide, but that doesn't mean it is" It doesn't? http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4555000.stm --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not see how this is relevant, but your source (BBC article) tells: "A court in The Hague has ruled that the killing of thousands of Kurds in Iraq in the 1980s [by Saddam Hussein] was an act of genocide." . This is a sourced view.Biophys (talk) 14:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Which means there the war in Iraq was a genocide. No need to "find people", it's in court rulings. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I meant the current war in Iraq. But either way, my point remains that comparing genocide to non-genocide just shouldn't be done and I still hold that it was someones attempt to draw non-existent parallels between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, much like the black book of propaganda attempts to do. I'm satisfied with the current version though, the numbers can stay as long as they're in context with history and not just a blind comparison of a series of digits serving to imply falsities. LokiiT (talk) 16:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Shortening title

How about "Nazi crimes against Soviet POWs"? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I think this is shorter and better.Biophys (talk) 02:11, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

OK then. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

It is worse since it hides the word extermination which it was extermination it explains it all it was extermination to exterminate Aheadnovel55 (talk) 17:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

To the German-language editors

Do a German Wiki version. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Who was the author?

The following segment has been recently inserted: According to the study by the Russian Academy of Sciences, out of the 5,917,000 repatriated Soviet POWs and civilians, 3,246,000 returned to civilian life, 1,645,000 were conscripted and 338,000 were found guilty (most of them were released by 1953); about half a million remained in Western countries.[43].

This is actually a collection of articles by different people ("sbornik"). What article has been cited (with pages please), and who was author of the article? This is not "According to the study by the Russian Academy of Sciences" if I understand correctly.Biophys (talk) 20:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this segment seems to be off topic. We are talking only about POWs here. Only ~1.5 millions of the repatriated people were POWs. So, the "total" statistics (POWs + civilians) is hardly relevant. The entire "Reprisals" sections could be a separate sub-article.Biophys (talk) 20:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

If you read Russian, try to look for Zemskov's works. He did several archive studies, some of them dealt with the POW's fate (see, for example http://scepsis.ru/library/id_1234.html). This author is quite tustworthy, because, for instance, he published some of his results in high reputable Western journals (see, for instance,Getty, Rittersporn, Zemskov. Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence. The American Historical Review, Vol. 98, No. 4 (Oct., 1993), pp. 1017-1049, ref No 42 in this article). According to Zemskov's data majority of ex-POW's were re-drafted and only 15% of them were detained in NKVD camps (226,127 out of 1,539,475 total). If you think those data to be more relevant, please, feel free to replace. By the way, this number is quite reasonable, because considerable part of those 226,127 could really collaborate with Nazis (so called vlasovtsy, for instance)) --Paul Siebert (talk) 05:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

But this does not answer my question. Can you please provide a proper reference for the currently cited segment? Also, we should probably place this material to Soviet POWs article that is now a disambig. page. Note that Getty is a "revisionist historian" who wrote ridiculous things about Stalin's purges. As about Zemskov, let me respectfully disagree. His studies are based on numbers that have been prepared by the KGB itself. These KGB data represent a deliberate falsification according to some researchers, while others still use these data, because they do not have anything better (Soviet military and secret services archives were never open, even with regard to old historical documents).Biophys (talk) 13:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Among the "conscripted" were also these in the penal and forced labour military units. It's also punishment. An American POW would usually get a hero's welcome. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 06:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

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The Black Book of Communism

I'm not one to sugarcoat atrocities committed by the Soviets or any of the allies, even for being biased in their favor, yet the reference to the Black Book of Communism in the last sentence of the summary, seems inappropriate. It is contextually relevant true. But it so deviates from given statistics, an order magnitude higher, that it doesn't seem likely that it's any more than a fabrication. 76.111.80.228 (talk) 04:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

There's a similar situation with the middle paragraph of [Soviet reprisals against former POWs]. 76.111.80.228 (talk) 05:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)