Talk:Iraq War

U.S. officials on oil

This line from the introduction: "Other reasons for the invasion stated by U.S. officials included Iraq's" was followed by a set of flawed sources. I pointed this out but User:Nosfartu has reinserted the sources, and not only that but added a couple of others.

So let me analyse them:

• [1] Bloomberg is not a U.S. official (and not even a U.K. official).
• [2] Alan Greenspan wasn't a U.S. official when he made this comment. He became an opposition figure after leaving the Bush administration, that means his words don't represent that of the U.S. anymore.
• [3] At what point did Vladimir Putin become a U.S. official? (this one just made me laugh)
• [4] Brendan Nelson is not a U.S. official, but was an Australian official. He doesn't mention the invasion and was not around the time of the invasion.
• [5] Who is supposed to be the U.S. official here? Robert Woolsey? If so, he wasn't in the U.S. goverment since 1993, long before the Iraq war
• [6] As you can see an error was made in this report, the stanford daily corrected this, stating right at the top that they accidently attributed a comment a journalist, and not the U.S. Army General.
• [7] This is the same source as the second.

All in all, in none of the sources any U.S. official claims that they invaded Iraq "because of oil". So this exceptional claim can go. Grey Fox (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

There indeed was an attribution problem. The debate clearly belongs in the lead nonetheless. If there are still problems with the text, it would be better to edit to match the sources or propose a version here on talk rather than just deleting it.--Nosfartu (talk) 01:53, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I have no problems with theories like that to be discussed somewhere in the article, or even in a seperate page, but it doesn't belong in the lead at all. There's several policies against that too. Grey Fox (talk) 02:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, WP:LEAD says:

The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies that may exist.

The debate seems notable since it is being conducted by an aide to Tony Blair, a former chair of the Federal Reserve, a former President of Russia, an Australian Minister of Defense, etc.

If you could cite the policies you are speaking of, that would be helpful.--Nosfartu (talk) 02:08, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

If you could clarify how WP:LEAD and WP:BLP apply, this would be useful. Also, WP:REDFLAG and WP:FRINGE would not seem to apply to high level government officials and newspapers. For clarity, the currently cited sources are:

• Bloomberg quoting Sir Jonathan Porritt, head of the Sustainable Development Commission, which advises Blair's government on ecological issues, as saying the prospect of winning access to Iraqi oil was a very large factor in the allies' decision to attack Iraq in March."
• The Times Online quoting Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve, as saying "I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil."
• The Seattle Times quoting Vladimir Putin, former President of Russia, as saying "I believe one of the goals is to establish control of the country's oil reserves."
• The Washington Post editorializing in an article by Dan Morgan and David B. Ottaway that "a U.S.-led ouster of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein could open a bonanza for American oil companies long banished from Iraq".
• The Stanford Daily quoting Thomas Friedman, a Pulitzer Prize winning op-ed contributor to The New York Times, as saying “Of course it’s about oil, we can’t really deny that.”

--Nosfartu (talk) 02:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Since when do the wild allegations of an undemocratic president make a "controversy"? Should we also add what Robert Mugabe has to say? And as I said already, Australia did not make the decision to invade Iraq, and neither did the U.K. (they instead assisted the invasion). So all we have to make a controversy is the words of government critics and/or independent journalists. The theory that the US invaded a country just for oil is a fringe theory. If it should be discussed or not is one thing, I don't mind a seperate section for that, but it should not belong in the lead section. Grey Fox (talk) 02:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

An example I can give you is the article on George W. Bush. His introduction does not contain anything about him invading Iraq "for oil". This is limited to the Criticism of George W. Bush page. The same should happen here, these allegations belong to the Criticism of the Iraq War section/page. Grey Fox (talk) 02:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

It is a notable and well-sourced controversy which has been in the article for a fairly long amount of time. The George W. Bush article is really its own article with its own precedents. High level government officials and newspapers aren't the source of fringe theories though.

That being said, you might request the input of other editors via Wikipedia:Third opinion or Wikipedia:Requests for comment. Other editors will also naturally share their opinion over a little bit of time. This has been a part of the stable article for a while though, so there should be discussion before it can be removed. Others will read and share their thoughts.--Nosfartu (talk) 02:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

It has also been part of this "stable" article for a while how "according to U.S. officials" they invaded Iraq "for oil", and this exceptional claim turned out to be falsely sourced. I don't have much experience with third opinions so I don't know if they usually solve a dispute. We're most certainly dealing with a fringe theory because it contradicts not only most other high level government officials and newspapers, but also because the theory makes little sense. The allegation that the US invaded a country for oil means they invaded a country for money, and the costs of this war are far greater than whatever money oil would return to them. Grey Fox (talk) 02:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Small note, Greenspan meant something different then what most initially thought [8][9] Grey Fox (talk) 03:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Whether we think or whether the U.S. did invade Iraq for oil is irrelevant, because WP:V says the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. The debate has been well documented above, and has also been captured in multiple polls of multiple countries:

• BBC: When a poll by the BBC asked why Britain and America wanted to attack Iraq, the most popular response was: "To secure oil supplies"
• UPI: A total of 32.7 percent of the 6,909 U.S. respondents to a Jan. 16-18 Zogby interactive poll said Iraq's oil was a "major" concern and 23.7 percent said it was not a factor
• Washington Post: Forty-three percent of Baghdad's residents said they believed that U.S. and British forces invaded in March primarily "to rob Iraq's oil" while only 5 percent of those polled said they believed the United States invaded Iraq "to assist the Iraqi people."

There is a debate and it is well-sourced.--Nosfartu (talk) 04:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

There's also a number of other theories on "why the us invaded Iraq", such as 1) It's all about the Israel lobby 2) Bush was trying to avenge his dad 3) Because God told Bush. You wouldn't want to add all those either would you? No, because these are fringe theories and speculations without evidence. No poll result changes that. I've also seen polls that said many believe the 9/11 attacks were an 'inside-job', but it's still considered a fringe theory on wikipedia. WP:V does not apply here, because I'm not debating the inclusion of the material here, but only the inclusion of the material in the lead section. Grey Fox (talk) 04:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

So multiple public polls, government officials, and newspapers are all pushing a fringe theory together in some elaborate get together? How is fringe theory and speculation without evidence defined again?--Nosfartu (talk) 04:17, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

No they didn't attempt to push any theory, the job of those news agencies is simply to poll the war's popularity. It's unknown if opinion polls are reliable for this. Let me just quote another set of polls:

"Do you think Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq was directly involved in planning, financing, or carrying out the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001?"

• September 2003 responses: 47% Yes, 37% No, 16% not sure.
• January 2004 responses: 49% Yes, 39% No, 12% not sure.
• September 2004 responses: 42% Yes, 44% No, 14% not sure.
• October 2004 responses: 36% Yes, 51% No, 13% not sure.
• June 2007 responses: 41% Yes, 50% No, 9% not sure.

Even stronger results in favour of unproven theories. Yet, what's shown in this introudction is "Some U.S. officials also accused Saddam Hussein of harboring and supporting Al-Qaeda, but no evidence of any collaborative relationship was ever found.". So why not the same for the "oil theory"? "Some critics also accused the US governement that the main reason for the invasion were Iraq's oil reserves, but not evidence of this has ever been found." Indeed, this oil theory has been widely disputed as well, a few simple google hits led me to the a number of writers and experts stating how impossible this theory is: Gwynne Dyer [10], Jonah Goldberg [11], Brendan O'Neill [12] Ismael Hossein-Zadeh [13] Jerry Taylor [14] and this could go on and on. Grey Fox (talk) 09:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

More sources that it is a reliably sourced debate, and not a fringe theory. Multiple polls, newspapers, and officials are not working together to advance a fringe theory and I am curious what evidence, if any, you have to support your claim.--Nosfartu (talk) 17:02, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

"Multiple officials" from completely different countries don't have much say when it comes to alleged "secret motives" from US officials. Newspapers don't make these allegations, only several journalists writing for the newspapers (which are considered editorials). And as I already showed above wikipedia should not be written based on poll results. As for the proof you're asking for; that's impossible to "prove" Nosfartu, unless you can record brain waves. If you've read the sources you'll have noticed that the writers are not impressed by these allegations. Here's more, oil experts describe this "war for oil" theory as an "arab conspiracy theory"[15] and here another respected economist, Gideon Rachman, describing the oil theory as a fringe theory: [16] He also says that "it is an unprovable thesis." And indeed. It's impossible to know any hidden motives from US officials unless you were able to read their minds. Therefore it's undoubtly a fringe theory. Sure there's speculations and wild allegations from respected journalists, since yes respected journalist can also oppose military invasions and make their own guesses, but their arguments have also been countered and as such it's an unproven theory. All of this should be neutraly presented on pages like Criticism of the Iraq War and Rationale for the Iraq War, but not in the lead section of the Iraq War page. Grey Fox (talk) 18:06, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Being an official from a different country doesn't make your view part of a fringe theory. Multiple journalists writing in newspapers don't write about fringe theories. You should look up what a fringe theory is.--Nosfartu (talk) 18:29, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually they do. All the time. There's millions of journalists around, you can always find those that do. If you want I can provide you with the editorials of multiple journalists that state that Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden were best friends. So why don't we put that in the lead? It currently quotes only US officials, but not others. Same goes for journalists who believe that Saddam did possess WMD's, but that he transported them quickly to Russia or another nation. Why don't we put that in the lead? If you're allowed to put "war for oil" allegations in the lead, then I'm also allowed to put those allegations in the lead section.

As for me having to "look up what a fringe theory is". I already did, and let me quote for you. Examples include conspiracy theories and ideas which purport to be scientific theories but have not gained scientific consensus.' This can apply here as well. Grey Fox (talk) 19:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

This wouldn't really classify as a scientific theory. For Wikipedia, a fringe theory would usually be a "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources", which would not seem to apply here. Even if this meets the definition of a fringe theory, which it does not appear to, WP has the following policy about fringe theories:

Fringe theory in a nutshell:

In order to be notable enough to appear in Wikipedia, a fringe idea should be referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory.

Even debunking or disparaging references are adequate, as they establish the notability of the theory outside of its group of adherents.

The idea has been published by major publications, discussed by notable individuals, and has also been mentioned in some "disparaging" references which you have provided. This is really irrelevant anyways given that it is not a "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources". Numerous mainstream sources have been provided. I have started a discussion here to get input from others as well, and I would encourage you to add your thoughts.--Nosfartu (talk) 19:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

It may as well classify as a scientific theory, in the way that it alleges to know hidden motivations of individuals. Yes they say that a fringe theory is notable enough to appear in Wikipedia, but that doesn't mean it has to appear in the lead section, that's just absurd. Anyway what would you rather have; an introduction full of allegations from journalists and so-called experts not only about "war for oil" but also about "saddam-al qaeda links" as well as "saddam and wmd links", including those that dispute these allegations again, and so forth? Or just a plain introudction that sites fact, not theory, and leave the discussion for the body of the article in appropriate sections? Grey Fox (talk) 20:16, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd refer your comments to here where others are providing their input as well.--Nosfartu (talk) 20:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I've done that. To skip that for now, I recently removed part of the image down below in this article that says "An oil power plant in Iraq, which has world's second largest proven oil reserves." It said something like "some claim that oil was one of the reasons for the war" followed by three sources. I removed it with the intention to re-add it, but more neutraly with the addition of something like "but disputed by others". In the meantime you had changed the content though, to an infamous quote from greenspan. I think the version as it now is against the simple core policies WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE, because it only shows one side of the debate, and with the addition of the image it almost looks like an old-school propaganda poster. Also given the fact that Greenspan has eleborated further on his comments with arguments against this oil theory, are you fine with making it blank again, or changing it back to the way it was before that? Grey Fox (talk) 22:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

You had left the image in and simply removed the Greenspan quote. I readded a Greenspan quote from one of the articles you found, so I did not think this would be controversial. If there is still an issue, I hope you can clarify.--Nosfartu (talk) 22:09, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The original image said An oil power plant in Iraq, which has world's second largest proven oil reserves.[282][283] Some analysts have argued that the implementation of the Carter Doctrine and the Reagan Corollary played a role in the outbreak of the Iraq War.[284][285][286][283]. I removed the second section because I believe the text was too large and an excess amount of sources were cited which looks bad in imagebox'. I wasn't ready yet however, I wanted to change the text to something like Some have alleged that oil played a role in the Iraq war, but this is disputed by others.

However the image now says something completely different; it uses a cherry picked quote from greenspan. This isn't neutral however. Images can be used for propaganda purposes this way. For example why not use a quote from a US official denying any oil-link? Or instead a quote from greenspan in which he says that the bush administration was not at all motivated by oil? The way it is now violates the WP:UNDUE policy of WP:NPOV, which says "Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. and This applies not only to article text, but to images, wikilinks, external links, categories, and all other material as well. So, that's why I propose to change it to the following: An oil power plant in Iraq, which has world's second largest oil reserves. Some critics alleged that oil may have played a part in the outbreak of the Iraq war, but this has been disputed by others.. Grey Fox (talk) 23:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Attributing a quote to someone with a source you provided didn't seem controversial to me, but the wording you proposed is fine too.--Nosfartu (talk) 02:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

The correction at the top of [17] seems to refer to a quote about gas stations, and does not retract this part:

“Of course it’s about oil, we can’t really deny that,” Abizaid said of the Iraq campaign early on in the talk.

Where is the correct place to re-add that source? 69.228.196.41 (talk) 06:36, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Under Iraq's WMD controversy I think a paragraph could be added about other rationales for the war, including alleged Al-Qaeda connections, alleged spreading of democracy, alleged energy resources, etc.. It would be good to use all of the previous sources..--69.219.236.37 (talk) 21:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Based on this observation, I've replaced the discussion of all the minor reasons for the war. When you remove sources because of retractions, please make sure you are reading them correctly. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 07:47, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Problem with article header

In the article header, we read:

Prior to the war, Iraq's alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) was claimed to pose a serious and imminent threat to the security of the United States and its coalition allies.[35][36] This assessment was supported by the U.K. intelligence services, but not by other countries such as France, Russia and Germany.[37][38][39]

However, the last sentence is not at all supported by any of the footnotes at the end of it. Indeed, it is not clear that these footnotes have any bearing on the sentence at all. One is about the fact Russia opposed the war, but told Bush that Iraq had links to al-Qaeda; another is about how Germany opposed the war, yet co-operated operationally with U.S. intelligence; and the other, perhaps the most relevant, is about the release of a document by the British government. None of these links support the statement that France, Russia or Germany opposed the claim that "Iraq's alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) was claimed to pose a serious and imminent threat to the security of the United States and its coalition allies". They merely state that they opposed the war, which is clearly different, and so this section ought to be reworded. -- 17:41, 18 December 2008 82.21.103.1

It caught my attention as well, because what I always heard is that, despite the fact that these nations opposed the invasion, their intelligence officials also alleged Saddam had WMD's. Grey Fox (talk) 21:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

It would probably be best to remove this, note the countries were politically opposed, or note the first source's quote than a UN inspector said the intelligence seemed hyped.--70.224.16.81 (talk) 21:50, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is the full text of the joint declaration by the foreign ministers of France, Russia and Germany March 6 2003. There is some (retrospective) sources that claims that those countries intelligence service did not accept the curveball report. For example this one, this or this. I do think that these sources may replace the current ones without having to reword the article text. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the current use of the word "manipulated" is correct - a better word would be "exaggerated". He says that "question marks were replaced by exclamation marks" - isn't "exaggerated" a more descriptive word, in that case? Manipulation implies conscious misrepresentation; exaggeration can imply lying to yourself as much as to others. Blix seems to leave this window open. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.103.1 (talk) 01:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Either word seems alright.--76.251.249.252 (talk) 04:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Blix points out examples such as Blair changing question marks to exclamation marks. This is conscious misrepresentation not exaggeration. If Blair had left the question marks and only added text, or even if he had changed full stops to exclamation marks, then it could be seen as exaggeration but that didn't happen. Wayne (talk) 06:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Quoting someone like Hans Blix in the lead section is a bit too much, details belong down in the article. Grey Fox (talk) 08:10, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

No reason to make special reference to him.--69.219.236.37 (talk) 14:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

What "critics" say shouldn't belong in the lead anyway. Those are details that should be carefully worked out somewhere else. Grey Fox (talk) 16:45, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Hm. WP:LEAD says the lead "should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies that may exist". The context of the Iraq War would be the public claims which were made about weapons of mass destruction, and the notable controversy would be the fact that some critics charged the intelligence was false and this later turned out to be the case.--69.219.236.37 (talk) 19:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Can we remove the statistics about the dead people too and just list the war as won? That would make me feel better. I think we should include the U.S. being greeted and kept as liberators in as well.--69.219.236.37 (talk) 19:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

During a recent dispute we were advised to keep such details out of the lead. In anyway the lead as it stands is already highly critical. Grey Fox (talk) 19:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Grey Fox in this. The header still mentions the false premise of WMDs and alleged Al-Qaida connections, plus it includes the unexpected rise of the insurgency. The details about foreign diplomacy can actually be reserved for the article itself. --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:23, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Does the fact Iraq was fifth on the 2008 Failed States Index by Foreign Policy and the Fund for Peace really belong in the article lead? Does anyone who doesn't read Foreign Policy pay attention to this index? I move that it doesn't and they don't. I intend to replace this with a brief sentence carrying various actual statistics on things such as levels of violence, economic activity, power provision as of the end of 2008 unless anyone objects. Noung (talk) 12:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The Failed States Index is widely used by news organizations, political science researchers, etc so it is paid attention to and is in fact reputable. The idea is to give a high level overview of what is occuring, and to report what multiple sources are saying. Actual statistics may be more useful as long as they aren't coming from one of the other sources being used (DOC, ICRC, etc.) So I think actual statistics sound better in theory, but it would depend on what specifically they are about and who they are from. If you wait a few months, it may make sense to update with statistics from 2009. Hope this makes sense and we agree.--76.251.253.161 (talk) 01:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

A Google News search for "Failed States Index" gets just four hits. I don't deny that it's "reputable", but is it really a mainstream enough opinion to belong in the header? It's not like it's that widely used. I've never heard anyone mention it outside of Foreign Policy before I just went looking for it now. But whatever, I don't really care. -- Noung (talk) 22:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

You are only searching the past month, and a new failed states index hasn't been published for about a year so it isn't too suprising that it isn't being covered much right now. It is also used in academia and professionally. Anyways, the idea is to provide an overview. If you can find recent statistics covering access to power, water, etc. these might be relevant and they could replace the FSI.--69.208.133.204 (talk) 00:18, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The premise of the entry is factually incorrect

The most important flaw in this entry is the fact that there is not officially a war in Iraq.

"My fellow citizens, at this hour American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger.

On my orders, coalition forces have begun striking selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war. These are opening stages of what will be a broad and concerted campaign."

www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/19/sprj.irq.int.bush.transcript/

There has not been a declaration of war against Iraq, so it is factually incorrect and intellectually dishonest to title this entry "Iraq War", and lead off with "The Iraq War, also known as the Second Gulf War or the Occupation of Iraq,[33] is an ongoing military campaign which began on March 20, 2003 with the invasion of Iraq by a multinational force led by and composed largely of United States and United Kingdom troops.[34]"

There is no citation anywhere in the article that supports calling this activity a war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.98.49 (talk) 19:26, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

It matches the UN's defenition of war so all of that doesn't matter. Grey Fox (talk) 20:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

War:"a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air". To argue that it doesn't meet the legal definition of a war is one issue, but I hope you aren't suggesting that coalition forces, insurgents, and dead Iraqis are all over there just picking flowers.--75.2.37.86 (talk) 11:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

No - I am suggesting that there has not been a declaration of war against Iraq, so it is factually incorrect and intellectually dishonest to title this entry "Iraq War". Simple enough.

martinchill —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.98.49 (talk) 08:42, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember there being a declaration in the War on Drugs either, but somehow a lot of people still call it that for some reason. Topic_creation#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name says article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity. The main principle of this is that the names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists (in this case legal ones).

Point being what you are saying would be addressed in Iraq_War#Opposition_to_invasion, Legality_of_the_Iraq_War, or Legitimacy_of_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq if you added the information with reliable sources. If enough relevancy is established, then it could be briefly noted and attributed in the lead.--75.2.37.86 (talk) 15:10, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not an event or process is considered a "war" has more to do with the characteristics of said process/event and NOT whether or not the US Government defines it at as a war or declares war. The US Government didn't declare war on Russia ~150 years ago but the Crimean War is still considered fact. Bottom line: whether or not something is considered a "war" is NOT decided by the US Government. Nice try though. Fatrb38 (talk) 23:32, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

The numbers of civilians killed in the infobox

Shouldn't we remove the Lancet and Iraqi Health Ministry casualty surveys because they are out-off-date? They were conducted in June 2006, two and a half years ago. We should leave the Opinion Research Business survey because it was done more recently, just over a year ago. And also we should add the Iraq body count numbers estimate, so we could present a minimal and a maximum estimate of dead. The Lancet and Iraqi Health Ministry casualty surveys are already mentioned in the linked article Casualties of the Iraq war. So if anyone wants to research the numbers of those surveys they can see them at that article. Those two estimates have no real purpose anymore, because, again, they are not up to date. I will wait a few days and if nobody objects I will remove those two, leave the Opinion Research Business survey and add the IBC estimate. I think it's for the best, also to scale down a bit the infobox, it just seems to me it's to long, primarily because of this.BobaFett85 (talk) 04:46, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The IBC isn't really an estimate, it is a minimum confirmed tally. I think the Lancet and Iraqi Health Ministry are better until more up to date estimates are available.--76.251.244.66 (talk) 02:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Joint Committees

Paragraph 5:

Where Iraq exercises jurisdiction pursuant to paragraph 1 of this Article, custoday of an accused member of the United States Forces or of the civilian component shall reside with the United States Forces authorities.

Paragraph 8:

.. The Joint Committee shall establish procedures and mechanisms for implementing this Article, including an enumeration of the grave premeditated felonies that are subject to paragraph 1 and procedures that meet such due process standards and protections. Any exercise of jurisdiction pursuant to paragraph 1 of this Article may proceed only in accordance with these procedures and mechanisms.

Paragraph 9:

Pursuant to paragraphs 1 and 3 of this Article, United States Forces authorities shall certify whether an alleged offense arose during duty status..

Two joint committees have been or will be formed: (1) Joint Military Operations Coordination Committee, and (2) Joint Ministerial Committee. The Joint Military Operations Coordination Committee (JMOCC) will be responsible for coming up with a list of "major premeditated felonies", and for coming up with procedures of what to do if one of these yet to be defined "major premeditated felonies" occurs while off-duty and off base. The U.S. reserves the right to keep the soldier in custody, ensure U.S. due process rights, and to certify that the soldier was off duty in the event of a violation. The JMOCC has also yet to form to define any "major premeditated felonies" or procedures for violations.--71.156.95.246 (talk) 21:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

For informational purposes, this process would not seem to apply to contractors.--71.156.95.246 (talk) 21:08, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Please read Article 12, paragraph 2 of the SOFA. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 22:27, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

"Iraq shall have the primary right to exercise jurisdiction over United States contractors and United States contractor employees". I pointed this out above. There is however a completely different process (not yet) for soldiers. This was also described above (and may be found in paragraphs 8 and 9 of article 12 of the SOFA)--76.251.253.161 (talk) 23:31, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Why do you keep changing "major premeditated crimes" to "still undecided 'major premeditated felonies'" -- do you have a source saying they are still undecided? GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 00:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The JMOCC has yet to form. See above.--76.251.253.161 (talk) 07:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Until there are off-base, off-duty soldier or contractor arrests, why does it even need to exist? Please read WP:V, one of the most important policies on Wikipedia, which states, "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." That means unless you have a source saying that the procedures are "still undecided" (which could change at any time, or if and when pertinent arrests occur, or during precedent-setting adjudications afterwards) then you can't call them that: it's against Wikipedia's rules to do that. In contrast, "U.S. forces and contractors will be subject to Iraqi criminal law if they commit major and premeditated crimes while off-duty and off-base," is fully sourced because it's directly attributable to Article 12, Paragraph 2 of the primary SOFA document, as well as dozens of secondary sources you can find with a quick Google News search, several of which are already cited in the paragraph in question. For those reasons I am reverting your edits. Please don't take it personally. Please do make an effort to become more familiar with Wikipedia rules. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 08:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Paragraph 2 very clearly and explicitly applies only to "United States contractors and United States contractor employees" (and NOT U.S. forces, this is quoted verbatim). Please read paragraph 8 and 9 and then explain to me how U.S. forces and U.S. contractors undergo the same process (they don't at all, Paragraph 1 lays out the treatment of U.S. forces).--76.251.253.161 (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

And as laid out in Paragraph 8: "The Joint Committee shall establish procedures and mechanisms for implementing this Article, including an enumeration of the grave premeditated felonies that are subject to paragraph 1 and procedures that meet such due process standards and protections. Any exercise of jurisdiction pursuant to paragraph 1 of this Article may proceed only in accordance with these procedures and mechanisms." In other words, Iraqis have no jurisdiction whatsoever over U.S. forces until someone defines what a "grave premeditated felony" is, and right now no one even knows who is going to be on the committee to decide that (as outlined in the LATimes source above, if you would politely refer to it).--76.251.253.161 (talk) 14:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh, you are looking at numbered paragraph "2" from the State Department's translation. Look at paragraph 1, then, just after the unnumbered introductory paragraph. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 04:50, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Right. So I would agree with paraphrasing this:

Iraq shall have the primary right to exercise jurisdiction over members of the United States Forces and of the civilian component for the grave premeditated felonies enumerated pursuant to paragraph 8, when such crimes are committed outside agreed facilities and areas and ouside duty status.

The key to point out is that it says "grave premeditated felonies enumerated pursuant to paragraph 8", and the felonies and procedures for prosecuting them pursuant to paragraph 8 have yet to be laid out making it currently impossible to prosecute any U.S. troops. There are also a few other minor items in (numbered) paragraphs 5 and 9. So I'd be fine with paraphrasing this in a slightly different and mutually acceptable way, but I think it should be taken account of that U.S. troops would be held by U.S. forces, must be certified by the U.S. to be prosecuted by Iraqis, would be ensured due process rights of the U.S. Constitution, and (currently) wouldn't have anything that they can do which qualifies as a "grave premeditated felony" (when a list of premeditated felonies is made, we could adjust the text accordingly). On a side note, there was already an Iraqi family which was hoping to press charges under the agreement, and the case has been sitting idly.

If you don't support the reading on the article, I'd encourage you to make minor changes or make a proposition or two here on talk. I am for mentioning numbered paragraph 1, but only in a way which is pursuant to numbered paragraphs 5, 8, 9 of Article 12 and the rest of the SOFA. --76.251.253.161 (talk) 13:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I just found this as well. Congressional Research Service: U.S.-Iraq Withdrawal/Status of Forces Agreement: Issues for Congressional Oversight

• On contractors:

  As the term is defined in the agreement, “U.S. contractors and their employees” only applies to contractors that are operating under a contract/subcontract with or for the United States Forces. Therefore, U.S. contractors operating in Iraq under contract to other U.S. departments/agencies are not subject to the terms of the SOFA and are, arguably, immune from Iraqi civil and criminal jurisdiction as long as CPA Order 17 remains in effect.

• On U.S. forces:

  According to the terms of the agreement, Iraq is able to assert exclusive jurisdiction over U.S. forces, including the civilian component, for the commission of “grave premeditated felonies” while off-duty and outside agreed upon facilities and areas. It is unclear what crimes constitute a grave premeditated felony as the term is not further defined. Rather, the agreement calls for the creation of a U.S.–Iraqi Joint Committee to enumerate the grave premeditated felonies. Only after the committee enumerates the offenses, and also establishes procedures and mechanisms consistent with due process standards and protections available under U.S. and Iraqi law, will Iraq be able to assert jurisdiction over U.S. forces and members of the civilian component. Additionally, Iraq is required to give notice to the United States within 21 days of discovery of the alleged offense that it intends to assert jurisdiction. At that point, the United States may request that Iraq waive its right to jurisdiction, but Iraq is not obligated to relinquish its right.

If a member of the U.S. forces or civilian component commits an offense considered to be a grave premeditated felony, a determination must be made as to duty status. If the individual is determined to not be in a duty status, Iraq will be able to assert jurisdiction. However, if the determination is made that the individual is in a duty status at the time of the offense, the U.S. will retain exclusive jurisdiction. The determination of duty status is the responsibility of the U.S. authorities. If the Iraqi authorities believe that an individual was not in a duty status and therefore should be subject to their jurisdiction, they may appeal the determination to the Joint Committee, the same committee responsible for establishing the procedures and mechanisms for asserting jurisdiction, but the ultimate determination remains with the U.S. authorities.

--69.219.239.39 (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

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Something's wrong with the reference links

For some reason, instead of starting at 1, they start at 33. 67.184.14.87 (talk) 22:59, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The first 32 refs or so are in the infobox.--69.208.133.204 (talk) 16:27, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Victory?

Well, anyone who pays attention to the news knows that the U.S. will soon be leaving Iraq. And if the current government still remains and the country stabilizes, would it be fair to declare the war a victory for the U.S.-led Coalition? What are everyone else's opinion on that matter? Dunnsworth (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It is not really up to wikipedians to judge whether there is a victory or not. Rather wait for someone in the US administration to call it a victory, and then take it from there including all the various critical opinions that such a call would eventually lead to. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Right, there would be a consensus that the war was over. And this wouldn't necessitate that there was a "victory". There obviously wouldn't be tens of thousands of U.S. forces getting shot at while on patrol of Iraqi roads if the conflict were over though (i.e. peacekeeping is one of many military operations).--69.208.133.204 (talk) 16:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

We should recognize at this juncture that each of the motivations for the war is associated with a distinct victory/loss condition. Regime change has been a complete victory and is well on its way to being a fairly decent success, too. Ridding Iraq of WMDs was a pointless wash. Ridding Iraq of al Qaeda ties has been, sadly, a pretty resounding loss. Preventing Saddam's payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers has been a victory, so far. Gaining control of Iraqi oil is a loss except for the development contracts, which is good, because that was the least noble of all the goals, as you can see by how controversial it still is. Ending human rights abuses in Iraq was a tremendous loss, with millions down on their rights to life and a place to live. As for spreading democracy, it's too soon to tell but I'm very hopeful. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 03:23, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

What officials said

I'm not disputing what officials said the reasons for the war were; but your edits are playing down the extent to which control of Iraq's petroleum was a factor, GLPP. Why did you blank Wolfowitz's admission?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Since it's part of a retracted news story, it's been in some dispute -- I had to add the source back just a few days ago. Do you think Wolfowitz's statement is stronger than O'Neill's documents? I'd be much less opposed to something that didn't say that petroleum was the "main" or "primary" reason or factor. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 22:06, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't see how anyone would argue seriously that petroleum wasn't. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 22:29, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

They do per the citations later at the end of the sentence in question, and we must be neutral. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 22:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Let me rephrase that: I can't see how anyone who isn't part of or aligned with the Bush administration would argue seriously that petroleum wasn't. I have no problem with being neutral; but these people have a reputation for being economical with the truth. To take everything they say at face value goes well beyond any reasonable definition of neutrality. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 23:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

How can you construe Wolfowitz's statement as the "main factor"? There's just no linguistic way. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 13:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The retracted news story used this exact language so I see how it was done, but the story was retracted. This doesn't meet a reliable source, so I don't believe it should be used. There are plenty of others who have said the same thing, so let's use what they have said.--76.214.153.120 (talk) 21:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Lapsed Pacifist, the guide on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. What we think is the truth is irrelevant; what is relevant is what we can back up with reliable sources. Maybe someone should research and write a section on what has happened to the Iraqi oil industry under the occupation - who has profited etc. But probably in a different article. As for the Wolfowitz source, including it is madness - it is a misquotation which was later retracted by the newspaper. -- Noung (talk) 12:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The revised Wolfowitz retraction still firmly supports the statement that the oil reserves were a significant factor in deciding whether or not to invade. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 06:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Over or ongoing?

Despite the litany of near daily bomb and gun attacks by militants, Iraq is still substantially less violent than it was 18 months ago.... U.S. forces are increasingly taking a back seat to Iraqi troops under a new bilateral security deal that took effect at the beginning of this year, as violence edges downwards.... U.S. officials say that with the Iraqi military and police forces now over 600,000 strong, the U.S. military will be able to fall back to a support role under the agreement.[18]

Ongoing conflict or over? If ongoing, at what level do we call it over? GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 22:00, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Just look at a variety of sources and try to use their language. It might take them awhile to call the conflict over. This is why the news article says the "U.S. military will be able to fall back to a support role under the agreement". It is in a transition from ongoing to over, at least hopefully.--76.214.153.120 (talk) 04:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Here's something from one of the Wichita Eagle editors. It's done as a pro/con column with the pro side saying it's over in no uncertain terms, and the con side saying it's impossible to say, but: "There may yet be another war, a different war, in Iraq." That seems pretty clear-cut to me: there's no way to avoid the fact that the con side can't get any closer to calling it over without being a pro opinion. More views:

• Cell phone coverage up (US News and World Report)
• "As house prices rise, Iraqis find they can't go home again" (Christian Science Monitor)
• "Iraqi citizens enjoy normalcy in Rashid" (US Air Force photo set)
• "Iraq has taken charge in 13 of 18 provinces" (World Tribune) - including Anbar Province

Status changed to "Conflict ongoing in 5 of 18 provinces." GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 09:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

It is unclear that Iraq symbolically taking over security in a set of provinces means that the conflict is over (and just in those provinces). A war can't be going on one side of a street and then just completely stop on the other side since it happens to be in another province. Has violence stopped in these provinces? Is there a minimal U.S. presence in these provinces? Are U.S. troops still being fired at when going on their operations? We shouldn't forget about our soldiers who are working hard there just because some might like to call the conflict over. Explain to a parent that their son or daughter died in a conflict that is already over and you might be able to find that they disagree with you.--68.248.152.92 (talk) 14:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

According to the Army Times, President-Elect Obama may soon give the Joint Chiefs of Staff the mission of ending the war. He can't give them the mission of beginning to end a conflict which is already over. Trying to forget there is an active conflict over there is a disrespect to those who are dieing and their families.--68.248.152.92 (talk) 14:28, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The role of lobbying in manufacturing support for the Iraq War

Would it be appropriate to bring up the role of lobbyists (representing the military-industrial complex, or more specifically US corporations that would end up making large profits/revenue off of government contracts in the Iraq War/Conflict) in manufacturing support, especially among US politicians, for the invasion of Iraq? There have been documentaries on the subject (eg Iraq for Sale) and it is obvious that lobbyists play a very influential role in American politics. Corporations realized they would make large sums of money off of the war and donated campaign contributions to key politicians in return for these politicians "drumming up" support for invasion.

If you need specific references then it can be done. Either way let me know. Fatrb38 (talk) 23:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 10:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Iraq 2009 Quote

I'm confused as to why this quote is included in the section regarding Iraq in 2009: "Until now I have tasted no happiness. I think 2009 will be like the former years." The man who was quoted isn't an Iraqi official, defense force officer, or polotician. It appears that he is just a man off the street, therefore I am unsure of why his comments are included in this article. Tominator93 (talk) 22:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The quote would appear to be representative of Iraqis who are skeptical of how a transition in a heavily fortified and walled off portion of their city is going to translate in to any change in their lives, and is reliably sourced to the Los Angeles Times. It isn't clear why an Iraqi should have to be surrounded by armed U.S. forces to be allowed to be quoted (see systemic bias).--68.248.152.92 (talk) 04:51, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Withdrawal from Iraq?: Obama

Shouldn't there be something here about the future of American military presence in Iraq? After all, he does want to withdraw within 16 months, and it says that nowhere.