Talk:Paragraph

Typography C‑class High‑importance

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[No heading given]

"A paragraph is 4-5 sentences that are all about the same thing."
enuff not to be a stub any more? Some of the ideas need rephrasing to make them clearer. Paraphrasing will make the narrative more convincing.

As it stands its disjointed and lacking direction and focus. From an mature person's POV it's salad days.

More examples of paragraphs in action please. Edgar Allen Poe regularly wrote paragraphs that ran for more than one page.

James 21:17, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

"ORIGIN French paragraphe, from Greek paragraphos ‘short stroke marking a break in sense’." from Oxford dictionary. Is Wiki or Oxon correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.177.15 (talk) 11:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Asterisms etc

Since I see no mention in the article yet, I'm going to add what I've been able to learn about asterisms to separate paragraphs. My knowledge is very shallow so I hope people will correct it. — Hippietrail 16:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Hippietrail. Essentially yes, most published books (novels and prose fiction in particular) use asterisms to indicate a narrative break or change of scene. The only quibble I have is with the phrase "most". Its a bit weasley, and would be better off as simply "published books use...". Here's a quick rewrite:

Published books, especially novels and prose fiction, use a typographic device to separate certain paragraphs further where there is a narrative break or change of scene. Extra vertical space is added, typically containing an asterisk, three asterisks, a special stylistic dingbat, or a special symbol known as an asterism.

Your conditional "especially when co-ocurring at a page break" complicates the description, and is an optional detail readers can pursue in either Typography or Typesetting, if we put it there.

I appreciate the addition and value it, but the problem we're now facing is the Paragraph article is drifting into typography. Same applies to the section on HTML paragraphs---that's a technical typesetting thing, not literary, and also belongs in Typesetting or Typography.

Arbo 17:52, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought maybe your Asterisms bit does belong in Paragraph. Leave it in (it can't hurt too much for the moment), update it with my cleaned-up version or your own.

Arbo 18:03, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments Arbo. In fact I just found the term yesterday via Google and Wikipedia after wondering for years what the things are. I'm still fuzzy on whether "asterism" refers to a) the symbol, b) the extra space separating some paragraphs, c) the sections or subchapters formed by such, d) the practice of doing this, e) is there a special term when extra division occurs at a page boundary, f) if a special symbol is only used when the division occurs at a page boundary will this be called an asterism whereas those division mid-page will go by some other term or no term.

I had a quick look in a few novels lying about in various languages. My French Harry Potter uses blank lines with no symbol, no doubt in the same places as the English original. Doesn't indicate whether these are used in native French titles. Of 3 Spanish books, 2 never use an extra blank line or symbol anywhere, the 3rd does use them and uses a custom symbol whether at page-end or mid-page. There seem to be many variations and I do not know if any have peculiar names in the publishing or printing jargon etc. — Hippietrail 00:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The OED (Oxford English Dictionary) and Bringhurst define an asterism as the typographic symbol----the three asterisks. The white space and text before and after the asterism doesn't have a special name, and I've never heard of names for special cases (e) + (f).

Technically a break with no asterism symbol is not an asterism. Book typographers refer to that treatment as simply a "break" or "section break".

So is a break containing the symbol also an asterism? Your wording above makes it seem so but the defs make it seem otherwise.

Just the symbol is the asterism. A break without the symbol is not an asterism, just a break or section break.----Arbo 04:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Let me just make this 100% clear since there is still ambiguity: a break without a symbol is not an asterism, but a break with a symbol is also not an asterism, only the symbol itself is an asterism. Right? — Hippietrail 18:48, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

100% correct. Not an annoying question at all :^) Feel free to ask more questions. Arbo 09:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Section" was my first guess but I didn't know if that term also has its own specific definition in publishing which might be different. So a "section break" has the same name and function whether or not it contains an asterism right? — Hippietrail 17:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite. See above.

There is a second, commonly used kind of asterism----a manual asterism, consisting of three asterisks spaced apart on one line.

* * *

Yes I tried to cover this when I said "..., three asterisks, ...". — Hippietrail 17:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To find out the names of the many variations (if they do have names) in publishing or printing jargon, visit http://www.typophile.com and post on the General Discussions forum. Ask for book typographers to answer the question, as graphic designers, typographers working in graphic design and typeface designers aren't neccessarily experts on this (some are, some are not).

Thanks. I've created an account. Now I just need to find where to post my question. — Hippietrail 17:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

General Discussions ----Arbo 04:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is drifting further into typography. If we add specific details about asterisms we're really talking about the typography of asterisms :^)

Arbo 09:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. I can't discuss the other terms on their own pages until I know what the other terms are. We can ramble in the talk page but not in the article (-: Thanks for your help. — Hippietrail 17:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

History?

There's nothing about history in this article. When was the paragraph invented, and by whom? I seem to recall it was invented rather late... I looked at this article to find out more and was disappointed to find nothing. John Baez 02:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

XHTML

"In XHTML, the p element marks a block of text as a paragraph - the opening tag <p> marks the beginning of a paragraph, and the closing tag </p> marks the end of a paragraph. The paragraph consists of at least three sentences."

What is this about three sentences? Krum Stanoev 13:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

order of importance

What is order of importance in logical order?? need it for homework...hehe...

Turning to Wikipedia to settle a question about paragraphs, we are unable to reach a concensus. Copied below is the first paragraph of the article

"A paragraph is a self-contained unit of a discourse in writing dealing with a particular point or idea, or the words of an author. The start of a paragraph is indicated by beginning on a new line and ending without running to the next passage. Sometimes the first line is indented, and sometimes it is indented without beginning a new line. At various times the beginning of a paragraph has been indicated by the pilcrow mark: ¶ "

One issue is what is a new line? Another is we are unclear as to what "ending without running to the next passage".

A little background. I was discussing an email from a coworker and referred to the second paragraph. In this case I used a blank line to delineate the paragraphs. My coworker immediately went to what I considered the third sentence of the first paragraph. The previous sentence ended at the right margin and the new sentence/paragraph started at the left margin. My coworkers position was that a new line was used. I however, cannot see any positive indication that this is simply not a continuation of the paragraph.

So what is a new line defined as. Also what is "indented without beginning a new line"? What does this look like.

I cannot make a recommendation as to how to clarify this intro paragraph but would like to be able to look at the article and get the clarification we needed. --Stan5184 18:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Structure"

I edited the "Structure" paragraph (at 10:50 on 11/30/07), but I wasn't logged in at the time (darn cookies). I corrected what amounted to a combination of prescriptivism and contradictory redundancy (note this is not a criticism of the editors who have worked on this page; it's natural for a paragraph that's been worked on by dozens of people to develop eccentricities). If anyone has any comments or would like to discuss I'd be happy to hear from you. Richardpaez 03:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Insufficient documentation (lack of source citations)

See templates. See WP:CITE. --NYScholar (talk) 12:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other languages?

Do other languages have the same conventions for what makes up a paragraph? In other words, are paragraphs a form of organization determined by English convention, or are they an expression of the universal way the human mind organizes information? A section on the history of paragraphs, as suggested above, might also help answer my question. 138.78.98.196 (talk) 05:17, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]