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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 82.68.11.50 (talk) at 09:46, 5 March 2009 (→‎1GB limit: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Size doesn't matter

The term "netbook" is a portmanteau of Internet and notebook - it has nothing to do with size as evidenced by the rapid trend towards large devices such as the 13.4 inch MSI X320.

Those of you who insist that size and weight are in any way relevant to netbooks (except in a historical sense) by reverting anything in anyway related to the larger devices should stop. If this is a problem for you then you might find the subnotebook article (which does pertain to size) a better outlet. -- samj inout 13:37, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So if it's not size, what does distinguish a netbook from a subnotebook, or indeed a laptop? Is there any industry consensus on this? Letdorf (talk) 23:04, 23 February 2009 (UTC).[reply]
A netbook is more like a single-purpose device which sheds "legacy" hardware including optical and magnetic drives and "abundant" resources (cpu, memory). Laptops are general-purpose and as such are like computing swiss army knives, complete with general purpose operating systems like Windows. Previous assumptions about price and cost have been broken by large screen (e.g. 13.4") netbooks running out to the late-hundreds of dollars. Asus, arguably the pioneer of the space, recently dropped sub-10" models altogether. -- samj inout 23:35, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Some netbooks run Windows and have hard disks, some laptops don't have optical drives. Even Ubuntu could be called So netbooks are just low-performance laptops? Letdorf (talk) 17:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC).[reply]
There's definitely a grey area in the middle which you can be sure will be increasingly exploited by manufacturers, but for the most part it's pretty obvious. Other examples include the presence of an internal 3G card or the use of flash memory (which, with only 100k or so write cycles, is definitely not designed for general purpose OS use). And then of course there's the operating system which is more like a basic launcher than a general purpose tool (when was the last time you consulted the OS except to fix something that didn't work as it should anyway?). I'm not aware of a definitive list of netbook features but such a thing could be an interesting addition if and when it appears.
A low powered laptop on the other hand will typically have XP or Vista, a celeron chip, barely enough RAM to boot the OS and will more often than not be virtually unusable. At the other end of the scale, subnotebooks (air? vaio?) tend to be surprisingly powerful but can be staggeringly expensive - I'd probably be more inclined to put the Psion Netbook into the subnotebook category. Both are general purpose. -- samj inout 19:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But laptops can be bought configured with internal 3G cards or SSDs too. My point is that, if you don't consider physical size/weight to be the defining attribute, the whole netbook/subnotebook/laptop thing does becomes a very grey area. Letdorf (talk) 18:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Well less bits means you can have a smaller box (perhaps lighter and/or thinner) but they do range from very small to quite large (and growing) so trying to pigeon hole as you might a MID/UMPC them is conflicting with reality. -- samj inout 04:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Netbooks are designed to be a small form factor laptop. Do not mistake this for the physical size, as this can be misleading. What this means, basically, is that the device contains a lesser amount of hardware. Specifically, netbooks are designed to have, as their name may imply, only the hardware specifically needed to browse the internet. Cheer, ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 19:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For me small form factor applies to desktops only and is all about physical size, small motherboards, less bays, etc. From the article "Small form factor (SFF) computers are housed in smaller cases than typical desktop computers.". While I'm sure you could scratch up a couple of references to support it, I'd be wary of introducing the term here. -- samj inout 19:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of instances in IBM and Microsoft literature that refer to such terms, even in my own collection of programming and computer engineering texts. It would be confusing in the article, so I have refrained from making reference to it in the article, but it is nonetheless used independant of the type of computer involved. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 20:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how one could interpret "small form factor", other than referring to physical size! I also can't think of any hardware that would be specific to "browsing the Internet" - web browsers are pretty indistinguishable from any other application software as far as hardware goes. Letdorf (talk) 18:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Right but the context is almost always desktops so trying to apply it to laptops will cause confusion moreso than clarity. Hardware can absolutely be tuned for Internet browsing - less CPU, more memory, less disk, more pixels, less 3D, more networking, etc. -- samj inout 04:20, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Less disk space maybe, but less CPU? Are you saying playing a YouTube video (a pretty common web-browsing activity) needs less processing power than, say, wordprocessing? More pixels are always welcome, but most netbooks have far fewer pixels than mainstream laptops, and no more RAM either. More networking? LAN/WLAN interfaces have been pretty much standard fit for most desktops and laptops for years now. And 3D graphics aren't really that useful for lots of applications. Letdorf (talk) 12:31, 26 February 2009 (UTC).[reply]
All these things are observations from the current group of netbooks. The point is that there are both hardware and software customisations that can be made to tune for this specific purpose. Installing Office, say, on a flash based netbook could well *dramatically* reduce its useful life, and would likely not run very well anyway. Regardless, it's our job to report on trends, not make them. -- samj inout 13:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmmm...what do you base your opinions about Flash SSDs on? Solid-state disk cites this article which suggests Flash SSD lifetime may be a non-issue nowadays. Letdorf (talk) 14:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Right, I was going to mention that but I didn't consider it relevant in a discussion about device size but in any case the rubbish that goes in netbooks is a different animal from that in high end disk drives you might find in a server or the macbook air. -- samj inout 15:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are you going to go on to propose that we merge the netbook and laptop articles? Surely we're better off to highlight the differences than focus on the grey areas in the middle. -- samj inout 15:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, I wouldn't suggest that, but my point is that I think we have to be careful not to include spurious and insignificant distinctions when trying to define something in an encyclopedia article. If something is not a well-defined concept, then it should be presented as such. Letdorf (talk) 16:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Solid state drives were used in the first netbooks (Asus EEE PC and Cloudbook and such) because they have a smaller form factor than say a 2.5" laptop drive, and use less energy, and for small capacities they are slightly less expensive than the smallest capacity 2.5" laptop drives you could buy. The latest SSD's come with intelligent techniques to extend the life cycle of the Flash storage, and as such lifetime of an SSD is now almost no issue, certainly not to the extend that using office software is a problem. Many linux based netbooks come with open-office included. There are netbooks that do NOT have the capability (flash player) to play youtube video's they are just for basic internet access, but what more defined the EEE PC was the absence of a CD-player, it wasn't needed, because Linux distributions are set up to install software from the internet (from software repositories), and the basic idea was that the whole thing was pre-packaged to include everything you would normally need for your daily use anyway, such as office software, PDF viewer, Browser, Word processing and spreadsheets, music and video player, basic "time spending" games etc etc. were all already installed, so you wouldn't need to install extra software anyway. What was NOT supported, was extensive 3-D gaming, and creating content with tools like Video editors or layout-editors or CAD software, the really CPU intensive and RAM hungry software. Laptops nowadays have the same amount of processing power and RAM as the typical desktop systems that were used for these tasks, and therefore the same price-tag. By leaving out these capabilities netbooks can be smaller, lighter, and get by with less battery capacity (bulk and weight) while still being able to power it for a reasonable amount of time. Manufacturers, seemingly scared of the "freefall of prices" (pejoratively often referred to as "race to the bottom") are trying to oppose the trend by trying to market more capable and more expensive "netbooks". we will have to wait to see if such attempts will turn the tide. Mahjongg (talk) 16:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nice summary. Fortunately it's consumers who define the marketplace moreso than the manufacturers and now they've got the taste for blood. -- samj inout 17:24, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, its only a pity they now think the crappy extremely limited "simple mode" linux derivatives are what now defines "Linux" for most uninformed users. Even more so because these implementations often did not allow easy switching to a normal more powerful GUI, and also didn't support any upgrading (by allowing default systems like Synaptic), so the possibility of installing software from repositories, one of the best features for netbooks, was instantly lost. They probably did not like the idea of supporting such a system, so they locked everything down. too bad. Mahjongg (talk) 23:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is bad for a general purpose device but not so much for a single purpose netbook. I'd rather give my [grand]parents, kids, etc. a device (like a set top box) they can't break. Those that care can easy enough install a general purpose operating system, within the limits of the hardware. Summary: this is a feature, not a bug. -- samj inout 12:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User:842U Blocked

As User:842U took it upon themselves to demote and rename the trademark section to something about a "genericized trademark" and then revert "citation needed" tags relating to the unjustified claim that the trademark is indeed "genericized" (without edit summary no less), despite having been warned half a dozen times, they were banned for two weeks for disruptive editing. I have archived their rants and old discussions so as we can start again with a clean slate. -- samj inout 04:22, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

842U's request for review was denied: "Based on the response of the blocking admin here: [1] I see a clear pattern of edit warring and other evidence of tendentious editing. You appear to have been warned multiple times for your problematic editing of the netbook article, and have refused to comply with these warnings to desist. Based on that, I am declining this request." -- samj inout 19:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have explained to 842U what led to the block and hope trust that they will return when unblocked. -- samj inout 12:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Psion Trademark

User:842U has consistently rejected the Netbook trademark but it really should be included here. There is no proof that "netbook" is a genericized trademark and there likely won't be for another 6 months so in the mean time the article should reflect *reality*, not what we want reality to be. The whole Psion trademark debacle should be covered concisely (eg the c&d letters, save the netbooks, dell, etc.) and Psion should probably get some credit for the Psion Netbook (even if it wouldn't necessarily be classed a "netbook" by today's standards). -- samj inout 05:03, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have the time to tend to this section right now so I'm tagging it with disputed-section so as we're not telling people psion's trademark actually is generic (even if it probably is). -- samj inout 18:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried to cut to the quick, so to speak, of the trademark status of the term. While it certainly is appealing to try to include comprehensive coverage of contentious issues, it is probably best to keep the section succinct and unbiased (not that a section should be biased to begin with!). To that end I've edited that contentious section quite a bit. Also, it's bad form to include inline "See also" links unless they are links to a "main article", so I have removed those. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 09:34, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

842U forced this distinction of "netbook" as a trademark for a product name vs category of laptops, yet the trademark *is* for "laptop computers". The distinction remains but it should probably go, as should the statement that it is genericized. The save the netbooks article cites expert legal opinion saying it is, which might be a good idea for this article too. -- samj inout 10:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Probably best to merge that information into this main article. Legal opinions can be noted, but we shouldn't be trying to present legal opinions (however well founded they may be!) as fact. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 11:02, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed 100%. -- samj inout 15:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: "trade mark law expert at Pinsent Masons" != "activists" :) -- samj inout 19:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I thought it was referring to the text of the Save the Nextbook people, my bad! But I think the reason for my edit still holds ground - we should be clear that this is an expert opinion and not necessarily a fact. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 19:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hows "Trademark experts have asseted that [...] sound? Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 19:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think "attest" is a bit strong... went for "Trademark experts believe". -- samj inout 20:33, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

UPenn reference

I'm confused! How does the reference support the assertation if it's not about environmental impact? Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 19:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, sorry removed the stale ref: The Net Impact of Netbooks? It Depends on Who Uses Them for What. There were a bunch of facts dependent on this ref before but they must have been stripped out :( -- samj inout 20:28, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure we could work it in, but it doesn't really support the assertation it was placed by! Hrm, on that note, do we have anything a little more academic to support the whole "more environmental" idea? I'm not entirely comfortable with asserting something as fact -- even if I know it to be fact -- with just a teritiary source. We should probably provide some references to support that instead of just saying "well I know it's true", you know? :-) Hrm, when I get back from work I'll research a bit, but feel free to add anything you find in the interim! Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 20:52, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I realise that people freak out whenever one tries to class something "environmentally friendly" but I don't see why we should insist on a higher standard of proof for this point alone. It's true that we can't just say "because it's $%@#ing obvious" so if you find something better then what we have then add away. -- samj inout 22:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Credit Psion

Just because Psion has a dedicated article for the Psion Netbook doesn't mean they shouldn't get credit for the term here. I would go so far as to say (given the high quality of the device) that some of the more positive reviews should be included, though I admit I'm yet to see a bad one. -- samj inout 22:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. -- samj inout 02:23, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Technology section

With the exception of the technology section (tagged with cleanup-section) the rest of the article is in pretty good state. If you're looking for something to do then the technology section would be a good place to start. -- samj inout 02:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A suggestion

It occurs to me that the external links we have may be better used as citations, as they are not so much general sites related to the article, but articles containing things such as history about the netbook, and so on. What do you think? ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 22:14, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anything which reduces the number of external links is good by me :) Any links we have should be very high quality and ideally non-commercial (e.g. not individual reviews, "buying guides", etc.) -- samj inout 05:43, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

History

So I'd like to see some debate on the "origins" of the netbook. Don't you think it really dates back further than just the OLPC project and at least to the Handheld PC? Both are attempts to make cheaper, more portable computing devices with technology that sacrifices speed for lower energy usage. Just a thought on how to perhaps flush out the history of them. I know the current "netbooks" have only been around for about a year, but surely there's more to their origins than what's currently up there. So what do you all think, is it important enough to devote time to? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonytnnt (talk • contribs) 05:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, its simple! The Asus Eee PC 4G was the first netbook, (in the sense we know of it today) all other current netbooks simply copied its design ideas. Its true the OLPC, (or rather the idea of a $100 laptop) was an inspiration for Asus to design the EEE PC, but only an inspiration. Asus did not market their system as a "netbook", but after some competitors made very similar devices the market started calling the class of these devices "netbooks". Mahjongg (talk) 11:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, the Asus was the first truly successful product. If Psion's numbers are correct they only sold 1/2 a dozen netbooks (as in 6 @ $1,299) in the first 2 years! -- samj inout 12:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1GB limit

Microsoft will only allow XP to be installed by the manufacturer on netbooks with no more than 1 GB of RAM, requiring Windows Vista otherwise. Does anyone know whether this is still valid? I couldn't find any official word on the MS website to cite. -- 82.68.11.50 (talk) 09:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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