Talk:Ilyushin Il-62

Underpowered?

AFAIK, the original Il-62 was seriously underpowered, owing to the NK-8-4 being the only available engine at launch time (it was meant to have the D-30KU or something like it from the beginning) and that the loss of a single engine during take-off meant no take-off, and possibly disaster. However, I'm not able to find a reliable source to confirm this. ProhibitOnions 10:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Easy enough to check that. NK-8-4 thrust x4 divided by loaded weight. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 01:48, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes; addressed in my last edit. The Tu-114 actually had a placard in its flight manual saying that no meaningful action could be taken in case of a single engine failing on departure, i. e., the crash was a certainty!

Who said that? It's totally wrong. Tu-114 was one of the most reliable airplanes ever built. And, of course, in the case of a failure of one engine, it could proceed with takeoff. --unpluggged 18:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the anon who wrote this was thinking of the Il-62 and mistakenly typed Tu-114 for some reason; the same editor added quite a bit to this article, and seemed quite familiar with it. You're right, the Tu-114 was a very good design (and he's right, the original Il-62 was underpowered). Regards, ProhibitOnions ^(T) 20:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Kirill and ProhibitOnions: I did mean the Tu-114 was underpowered. My source is the late Soviet designer Leonid Selyakov who worked at Tupolev from the early 1960s until retirement in the early 1980s, and from then on as consultant until his death. I knew Leonid. In his memoir book, Thorny Road to Nowhere ("Ternistiy put' v nikuda"), he cites the Tu-114 Flight Manual ("RLAe samoleta Tu-114"): "In the event of engine failure during the latter stages of the ground run prior to take-off, take-off cannot be completed. Selyakov had a personal reason to dislike the Tu-95 and -114, having worked on the M-4/3M competing programme. However, also see Gordon and Rigmant (Tupolev Tu-114) and other commentators both from within and outside the Tupolev camp. I am not aware of engine failures beyond V1 ["rubezh"] in Tu-114 service, and am convinced that in training no such exercises were carried out due to them being expressly proscribed in the FM.

Anonymous edits

There were some recent anonymous edits to the article that seemed to have been made to ridicule the assumption of industrial espionage, and to praise the Il-62 beyond what is appropriate to an encyclopedia. They also introduced some posibly useful aviation information, suggesting they may have been made by a pilot. I toned down the advocacy, and removed some comments about the Il-62 being a commercial success (which hardly applies in a communist economy) vs the VC-10 being a flop, but others might want to take a look.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 13:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, point taken. The espionage slur really irritates me. No proof is ever offered (not that it is as regards the Tu-144). What's more, here the two aricraft are genuinely very, very different (superficial similarity notwithstanding)

Maybe. But no-one says the plane was a copy of the VC-10, just that espionage probably took place, which was quite likely, as we now know there were plenty of Soviet moles in the UK, and that there were other cases where it can be shown (the Tu-144). Unlike in the present climate, where anyone who wants to can get detailed plans of the 787 or A350 while they are being developed, the VC-10 was initially developed in secrecy, and not simply because of the Cold War, but because there were plenty of rival companies still thinking of building big jets (especially in France and the US). My guess is that some early VC-10 plans probably were transferred out of the UK, and what the Soviets learned from them was that the most advanced aircraft then being planned had a four-engined T-tail with uncanted wings. Hence, the Soviets knew that a plane in this configuration would not only be viable but probably the most up-to-date design, as it was in many respects.

That's the likely extent of the intelligence-gathering, as the layout of the two planes is obviously very similar but the technology is quite different. Unlike the VC-10 the plane was built to be low-tech and durable, and its aerodynamics were not changed during its long production run. (Meanwhile, the VC-10 was quickly killed off by BOAC's ever-changing specifications; the demands for a long-range plane that could also meet "hot and high" landing requirements made it heavier than it needed to be and correspondingly less fuel-efficient than the 707, so no-one else bought it.) OTOH, the USSR had plenty of oil and was not a market economy, so the Il-62 suited its purposes well enough. However, the engine technology wasn't quite up to the task, as you point out, and the center-of-gravity issue led to a number of design oddities in the Ilyushin, like a big water tank in the nose, and the famous fourth wheel.

There's an interesting thread here [1] discussing the Il-62, and one of the contributors describes a friend of his taking part in a minor act of aviation espionage. Hard to verify, of course, but an amusing read.

FWIW, I think I have flown on an Il-62 (as a kid flying into Bucharest), but not a VC-10, though I did see the one parked at the aviation museum near Birmingham. I was supposed to fly on an Air Koryo Il-62 a few years back but got bumped to a Tu-134 instead. Still a great plane, with its round portals, but I was disappointed... OTOH, there's an Interflug Il-62 parked near Leipzig-Halle Airport where you can have coffee on board. Regards,  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 18:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that spying may have helped prove the concept, but hardly more than that. By the same token, Sir George (Edwards) may well have wished he knew the Il-62's secrets. And he _did_ try out a saw tooth which is still on view at Brooklands for all to see. Spying of all natures and of everything was a Soviet obsession and no doubt they tried. Hard! But as to whether they got anywhere meaningful, hard facts would seem to indicate not.

Thanks for the referral to a.net. Yes, amusing but sadly not terribly enlightening.

In fact, I am a VC10 fan in a big way and don't much like the Il-62. It just irritates me to see hearsay repeated by authors who are less than rigorous; if they had facts, I'd be the first to be delighted to read them. In a way, I almost want to provoke just such a response -- hard facts of spying on the VC10. So noblesse oblige and all that... :)

Aviation.com mentions an espionage plot regarding the VC10 and Il-62: "...reputedly leaked a carefully altered set of VC10 blueprints to the USSR..." But there is no source . http://www.aviation.com/travel/top10-notablepostwar-1.html (Click on number 5)WasAPasserBy 01:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Technological wonder?

This phrase is kind of amusing: "The Il-62 also uses conservative technology whereas the VC10 was a technological wonder." Now, those are strong words, possibly reflecting the opinion of the author, so some kind of citation is needed, don't you think? Or at least it should say "...the VC10 was considered by many to be a technological wonder". It's like asking "Who is the world's best author?" as a factual question... --Unsound 14:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur. The wording isn't NPOV, and should be fixed. Itsfullofstars 23:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep, that phrasing was added by the person with whom I had the conversation above. While there's some truth to it, it should be rephrased or removed. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 13:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Description and Equipment section

The Description and Equipment section could use some work. First, it was a sub-section of the History section, but that didn't seem correct to me so I moved it out. Secondly, the grammar is very terse and doesn't flow. Its a difficult read (to me, at least), with a lot of unwikified aviation jargon that laymen won't understand. I added a couple of wikilinks for empennage and semi-monocoque, as a start. Itsfullofstars 23:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I want to extend a Thank You to ProhibitOnions for tidying up that unwieldy section! - Itsfullofstars 17:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Glad to be of help. Regards, ProhibitOnions ^(T) 19:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality

I have seen some mention of neutrality being questioned in this article on this talk page - what does anybody think of this? I think some parts seem to be written with bias, particularly things regarding the VC10-Il62 Similarities. Could somebody confirm this to or not to be NPOV? vwozone 21:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of T-tail dynamics

The discussion of T-tail dynamics tries to pack too many thoughts into too few sentences, resulting in a bit of confusion.

For one thing, if the centre of gravity really is "aft of the main gear" as the article states, there would be no need for power assist to steer the nose wheel, as the nose wheel would carry no weight. What the article should say, is that the centre of gravity is "less far forward" of the main gear than in most other designs, making this design more "aft-tippy".

Secondly, to get away with a smaller (and lighter) tail plane during rotation, it needs to be more aft-tippy not just on its static pitch fulcrum but also on its dynamic pitch fulcrum, which means, not only on its main gear but also on its lift centre, i.e., its wing. However, this has some implications for the design's aerodynamic stability in higher speed flight, which should be discussed. The article speculates about moving ballast fore and aft, but should be more explicit about the connection.

Grandmotherfrompeoria (talk) 20:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)