Talk:Kostas Karamanlis

Could someone try to resolve the Caramanlis versus Karamanlis problem? It arises because traditionally English renders the Greek kappa as a "c" - hence Corinth, Constantine, etc, and the elder Caramanlis was usually written Constantine Caramanlis when he was in office. But his article here is called Constantine Karamanlis. This article is called Costas Caramanlis, but the text throughout calls him Kostas Karamanlis. We should consistently use either a "c" or a "k". Should we:

• Change Kostas and Karamanlis to Costas and Caramanlis throughout both articles? or
• Give up on the traditional spelling and call both articles Konstantinos Karamanlis and disambiguate them, with redirects from Costas Caramanlis, Constantine Caramanlis and Constantine Karamanlis?

Adam 03:08, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The tendency to render Greek "K" with "C" in English is actually valid for Ancient Greek, and I would argue that in this case it is not a direct rendering of the Greek names but of the latinized versions of these names e.g. Corinthus, Themistocles, Cleobulus, Cyprus, etc which contain C in place of K anyway. It is more appropriate to render all |K| sounds in modern Greek with "K" in English or indeed any language utilizing the Latin alphabet; this is what I have consistently done with my name at least throughout the years and all my compatriots do the same when they need to fill in their name in some application form in Latin alphabet. Lucius Domitius 14:08, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The 'k' is pretty standard for modern Greek, yes. In a few traditional place names like Corinth the old rendering is retained simply because it's so common, but in most others the 'k' is now used: for example Kavala, Kefalonia, Thessaloniki, etc. --Delirium 14:17, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Re SWISS SOLUTION. In Switzerland such problems are solved in line with the NOB principle. When Mr Konstantinos K. comes to live with us we ask him how he wants us to write his name. The choice is up to him. He can pick Constantin, Constantine, Konstantin, Konstantinos, whatever. And his family name we will write with a C or with a K, whatever he likes better.
As you can easily see for yourself in any Swiss Telephone Directory, this creates a certain amount of confusion. Nevertheless, in Switzerland we feel that it is Not Our Business to tell other people how to write their names. --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 11:37, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree it's not our business to tell other people how to write their names, but in this case can we ask Karamanlis how he wants his name to be written?! As far as I am concerned, I cannot understand why we should switch "K" to "C" since the spelling does not change. I believe that most of my compatriots whose names start with the greek "K" would prefer their name to be written in the same way in english as well, namely with the latin "K". I think that this solution is simple and rational and I do not understand all this fuss about C or K etc.
--Yannismarou 21:50, the 10th of March 2006 (UTC)

Re NOB. Yes, Yannismarou. Yes, we can ask Karamanlis how he wants his name to be written. All that Gene Nygaard would have to do is write Mr Karamanlis a letter telling him how much he admires him, and in two days he would get a letter in return that would leave no doubt as to how Mr Karamanlis wants his name to be written.
The problem is, Gene Nygaard does not want to know. He doesn't give a hoot about Mr Karamanlis and the wishes of Mr Karamanlis. And neither do you, Yannismarou. What the two of you want is a "simple and rational" solution for ALL Greek names. Well, Gene Nygaard gave you one. What are you complaining about, Yannismarou? --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 15:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I read an article about a prime minister, whose the title is "Costas Caramanlis", but its content speaks about a "Kostas Karamanlis"! Does this seem normal to you? Why am I complaining? I'm not complaining (at least, if I know well the meaning of the verb "complain"!). As far as I am concerned, I know how to write his name. But don't you think that this contradiction between the title and the content is problematic? And which is this "simple and rational" solution? Write the greek names with "K" in the title and then with "C"? Oh, yea! That's too "simple and rational"! And do you know what's more exciting with these "simple and rational" solutions? His uncle is not a "Caramanlis" but he is a "Consantine Karamanlis"! This solutions are not just "simple and rational", they are ideal, they reach perfection.
I read this article and I see at least two different ways to write the name of the same person and I find no persistence in the use of a concrete orthography. Well, if I don't get a convincing answer about this lack of persistence I'll keep "complaining", dear Bruno Zollinger. --Yannismarou 23:30, the 18th of March 2006 (UTC)

Re COMPLAINING. But Yannismarou, I don't mind you complaining (or whatever you want to call it). I was just wondering WHY you were doing it. I would solve the problem the Swiss way. But you and everybody else here wanted a simple and rational solution (your words, not mine). Well, you got one. Prime minister Karamanlis is now Caramanlis. Against all logic. And according to your own simple and rational solution outlined in your first post, every Mr Caramanlis would have to be spelled Karamanlis, whether he liked it or not. What's the difference, Yannismarou?--BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 09:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The thing is that there is NO modern Greek who prefers to write his/her name latinized with a "c" instead of a "k". In fact NO modern Greek uses this letter when conveying Greek speech into Latin alphabet. When on the web and in IM Greeks tend to use Latin alphabet instead of Greek to avoid the fuss of alt+shifting all the time, and there is NO modern Greek, I repeat, NO modern Greek who ever uses "c" instead of "k". Also in rendering street names into Latin alphabet in order to facilitate foreigners we use the same rule. That's pretty much it really, writing "Caramanlis" instead of "Karamanlis" is just plain odd, not to mention that speakers of certain languages could mistake the name for being pronounced as "charamanlis" or something. Lucius Domitius 11:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Re MODERN. You're absolutely right, Lucius Domitius, NO modern Greek who ever uses "c" instead of "k". NOT ONE. But what do you want to do about the millions of OLDFASHIONED Greeks? Force them to change their ways? And what am I to tell Miss Constantocopoulos next time I see her? That Lucius Domitius of Wikipedia thinks that she is not modern enough?--BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 08:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you wouldn't mind...Lucius Domitius 02:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Re HER ANSWER. She wants to know why you don't write your name as LOUKIOS. A good point, if I may say so. It would come much closer to how it was pronounced in Rome at the time--BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 10:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It is very funny the same topic comes back from time to time ... I still have the same question: Why is there no consistency between the article's title and the context? Oeo? Why? Oeo? I have not seen that in any other article and it still catches my attention. I think this is what we must first decide on. Which is the article's title we want? Would we like to call the article "Costas Caramanlis", then he must be written this away in all the paragraphs of the article (except for the first paragraph, where all possible writings should be metionned). Respectively, would we call the article "Kostas Karamanlis" (as I think we should!), then we must call him this way everywhere within the article. The present situation, an officially (by Wikipedia) called "Costas Caramanlis" to be everywhere referred as "Kostas Karamanlis"("Karamanlis - a nephew...Karamanlis was a member....Karamanlis was elected ...", but "Despite these scandals and setbacks, Caramanlis is still....") is schizophrenic.
And what about the inconsistency between the article of Costas Caramanlis and Constantine Karamanlis? Why is the first called "Caramanlis" and the other "Karamanlis"?
I am repeating the same questions, but I think I do not get thorough answers. Are these things so irrational?--Yannismarou 15:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Tell her "Lucius" is not a Greek name; I write it properly that way. The same reason I write "Jacques" and not "Zak". I am out of here this is getting too hilarious for a wikipedia talk page :S Lucius Domitius 18:35, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Re OUT OF HERE. I am sad to see you go, Lucius, but it will always be a source of comfort to me that you have come to realize that it is your own business how you write your name.--BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 08:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I am rousing an old discussion here, but according to the official website of the greek prime minister it is "Kostas Karamanlis". Case closed, court dismissed. :-) --Michalis Famelis (talk) 15:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Karamanid

His surname sounds Turkish. Is his family from Karamanids? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.140.214.67 (talk • contribs)

Sorry to move your comment around, but it is customary to add new stuff in talk pages at the end. Now, I don't think there is any connection between the Karamanlis family and southern Anatolia. They originate from Serres. Apart from that, I think that their name does have a turkish language root. However that is not uncommon, many greek surnames have roots in other languages as many originated from nicknames. My own as you can see can trace its ancestry in the latin-derived word "family" :-) --Michalis Famelis (talk) 15:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I can have a look in his archives, where I think there is something about his name.--Yannismarou 16:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Kara is Turkish for "black," and is a fairly common Greek name element. There is a Karageorgis Cruises shipping company - "Black George". Maybe one of his ancestors was of dark complexion. Adam 12:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is a Turkish surname, properly written Karamanlı (roughly =of Karaman) and pronounced Ka'ramanleh in Turkish. Many Greeks falsely believe that it comes from "Karaman Ali" but this is not the case. The meaning of the Turkish suffix -lı (notice it is the dotless ı) is actually understood by Greeks since it has passed in Greek loan words from Turkish, like μερακλής (meraklı) or μπελαλής (belalı). So perhaps he has some roots in Karaman, perhaps not, many Greeks were obliged to adopt Turkish surnames at the times, don't forget Greece was under Ottoman rule. --   Avg    00:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly applicable for the particular case, but let us not forget that "Kara" in Greek means head, leader, capital, crown etc. NikoSilver 18:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

As in Karavangelis? BalkanFever 01:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

That's probably from Turkish "kara" which means black. Kara (Κάρα) meaning head is an Ancient Greek word. It is used rarely in Modern Greek, especially in an ecclesiastical setting (kara is the head of a dead Saint).--   Avg    03:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It's also found in Serbian Karađorđević and Romanian Caramitru, so I think when used in a surname it comes from the Turkish. BalkanFever 03:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

He is Turkish of course, he cannot be a Macedonian even though he claims he is, his family comes from greek/turkish refugees from the karaman region in turkey, which settled in Macedonia. You say, many greeks were obliged to adopt turkish surnames at the times. That sounds very familiar to what the greeks had done with Macedonians? isnt it avg? :) :)Makedonia (talk) 13:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course, whatever you say. Dreams are free. Oh and funny that only Macedonia comes with a capital in your text. Also you might be interested to some links that I have where Greeks in FYROM talk about how they were forced to change their surname? --   Avg    17:30, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Aahhh i've seen them. those 400 greeks in Macedonia? They cannot really be seen as a minority, they are probably just bussinesmen working there. But of course you greeks try to claim the Vlach community as greek now and you have found some poor man who is willing to say everything on tv. Who know what the greeks have paid them for those statements. Anyway, even if there is a greek minority in Macedonia, we don't care, let there be a greek minority, we are full of minorities, we don't have any problems with them nor are we afraid to recognize their existence. In greece however, minorities are not recognized, they are being forced to act greek and the greeks are afraid of minorities. That's the difference my friend. greeks are xenophobic Makedonia (talk) 22:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Still don't see the capital G...? I guess you really can't expect an answer from a lower form of life?--   Avg    22:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you should answer the question. Oh wait, that's deliberate. BalkanFever 11:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That seems to be used quite systematically (generally, by ethnic Macedonians), funnily enough. Not trying to ascribe certain motives or anything, of course. ;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 17:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you got me BF, yeah his arguments were compelling and I try to avoid the discussion. --   Avg    16:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Haha unbelievable my New(pseudo?) Hellenic friend. Your warning is just as ridiculous as every other greek actions on my country, Macedonia. Forcing Macedonians to use capital G's now too? lol :P Maybe France will help you with this too, while the rest of the world laughs. Isn't it a personal attack that you don't recognize our language? Our history? Our nation? Our flag? Or am i confused here? Isn't it a personal attack that you call us FYROM and Skopians?? Or am i being wrong now?? Those attacks cannot even be compared to me not using capital G's :) I don't recognize greeks nor greece, just as you and your country do not recognize Macedonia nor Macedonians, which was again confirmed this week by your Minister Dora Bakoyannis. I'd rather call you New Hellenes.Makedonia (talk) 13:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

New Hellenes? Lol... That's how WE call ourselves :-) --   Avg    16:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Greeks generally do recognise Macedonia, both the province and the wider region. They (well, not all, let's not generalise thaaat much) just find the use of the name for the specific country problematic. The fact that you insist that it's "your flag" and "your history" doesn't help much in establishing any sort of cordiality. AVG is right btw, we do call ourselves Νεοέλληνες very frequently, a name that carries certain negative connotations, sometimes. 3rdAlcove (talk) 17:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Avramopoulos

Why does Mr Avramopoulos spell his given name two different ways in his two portfolios? Adam 12:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View

Under the 'Criticism' heading the article states that

There have even been claims by the center-right government that the fires are the work of terrorists. No evidence to make these claims credible has been presented. Furthermore, having failed to deal successfully with almost all political, economical, educational and social issues that occured during his 3.5 year government, his popularity had a great decrease from the very high point it was when Mr. Karamanlis was elected in 2004.

This is clearly biased, particularly the part about having "failed to deal with almost all political, economical issues etc." I have deleted the above portion of the article as it was not only biased but unsourced. Mr john luke 07:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

There have been 3 arrests for arson so these "claims" are indeed true —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.251.155 (talk) 12:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

hasn't he lost weight since that photo?

just saying:P--Leladax 03:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Cabinet

Magginas resigned recently; his post was taken up by Palli-Petralia.

Vandalism

2007 re-election

In the 2007 general election...

...He is a gay rights activist, and he is gay too. He likes balls and weiners

I'm gonna go ahead and remove this. Even if this isn't vandalism it doesn't belong to the 2007 re-election category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.122.4 (talk) 21:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Criticism

I believe that the "Criticism" part of this page is too brief and pointless. The criticism of Karamanlis governments spans to many more issues, other than the forest fires, which to be honest I dont think are his responsibility. There are corruption, inequality, incopetence claims on many areas of Karamanlis (in)activity as a prime minister. Public outrage in Greece has become more than obvious during the last 4 years. I suggest this part of the article to be rewritten to include mentions to matters like:

- The 2 eevaluations of the economy for political reasons. - The pre-electional promise of Karamanlis to stop corruption, and the subsequent rise of corruption, especially related to government officials. - The Vodafone scandal. - The social/pension system reform. - The education reform. - The uncontrollable rise of goods prices. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.79.120 (talk) 00:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I only agree with The social/pension system reform. and The education reform critisisms - The Vodafone "scandal" is retarted thinking he was the actual victim, the evaluations of the economy where EU mandated and the uncontrollable rise of goods prices is mere speculation, according to the IMF his administration has the best inflation rates since they started counting in 1980. [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.251.155 (talk) 13:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but this is all POV."The evaluations for political reasons",etc. is pure POV. The point here is to find RS with NPOV.Otherwise you could just step in in the site of PASOK and use it as a source.--Michael X the White (talk) 10:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The official PASOK site actually IS a reliable source. Saying that the major opposition party accuses Karamanlis of so and so is fine, as long it is stated that this is what PASOK believes and not proven in court or otherwise. Obviously the same applies to Papandreou and ND.--   Avg    11:15, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Avg. 23:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Basiljabber (talk • contribs)

Sure, as long as it is stated that it is PASOK claims and not "more than obvious public outrage in Greece".--Michael X the White (talk) 12:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

In which section can we write that he is a useless, lazy, lying and powerless old-school politician? 192.35.17.15 (talk) 14:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)