Talk:1948 Palestinian expulsion from Lydda and Ramle

POVFORK concerns

Tiamut, this article seems to be a POV fork of Operation Danny, perhaps unintended. I would recommend merging the info here into that article and asking an admin to delete this one. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 22:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for assuming good faith. I disagree that its a WP:POVFORK. Whle the Lydda Death March took place during Operation Danny, it's certainly not a synonym for it. Many other events took place during Operation Danny. We should certainly link back to that article from here, but I believe there is enough in the way of reliable sources to make this a notable topic in its own right. Plus, for those who want to link to this specific event, having a separate article that covers it alone in detail is useful. Tiamut^talk 22:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome. I agree with you that many other events took place during Operation Danny, but my point is that this event was wholly a part of Operation Danny, and should be a section in that article. If the section becomes too big, it can be summarized and spun out per WP:SIZE, but that is obviously not a problem at the moment. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

While it may have been a part of Operation Danny, I think including there would give it WP:UNDUE weight, considering that the details of other events that took place during that operation are not described at all. I'm also in the process of expanding the article further (as you can see). There is a lot to discuss, including the implications of this event in the wider conflict, which extend far beyong Operation Danny. I'd prefer to retain this article for now, have a summary section at Operation Danny linking to this and summaries for other events that took place during that Operation as well, also linking to their respective articles. I hope that you will give me some time to develop the article and see where it goes before making any final decisions about what should be done with it. I appreciate your collegial tone. Tiamut^talk 00:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

...and I appreciate yours. WP:UNDUE refers to viewpoints, not to portions of a topic, so I don't think that the policy would be invoked against you if you merged this into Operation Danny. I also think there are other problems with the article right now, for example I wouldn't consider Al-Ahram a reliable source. Anyway, your choice. I know how hard it is to begin an article from scratch, so I won't merge-tag this in the near future, but if somebody AfD's it I will probably argue for merging, unless I become convinced the other problems are critical, in which case I will argue for deletion. No particular reason you should especially care what one editor would do in that situation, but I thought it would be fair to be frank about it. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I can see the logic behind your position, though I disagree of course (otherwise I wouldn't have created this article in the first place :). I deeply appreciate your patience and your willingness to give the article time and space to develop before placing a merger tag and your honesty about what you would vote if it was nominated for deletion. I hope it isn't. I think its a notable, important topic and I'm surprised that it did not have an article devoted to the subject previously. I only noticed the absence when I was working on Salbit, a town some of the people of the death march ended up in before going to Ramallah. When Al Ameer son challenged the use of the word "scorching" in my description of the sun during the march, I countered that I thought my presentation of the event understated given the magnitude of what happened. Then I started looking for a wikilink so as to avoid piling all the information into Salbit (where its only remotely relevant). When I didn't find one, I started this article. Anyway, thanks again for your thought and for your quick forgiveness of my misrepresentation of your editing below. You're a good man/woman Jalapenos (I knew that from the Gaza war article, but its good to see it here too). Happy editing. Tiamut^talk 01:02, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

*Blush* thanks. I'm also biased towards you, you know, because you were the first to welcome me to Wikipedia, and you did so nicely. I'm a man BTW. Happy editing. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 08:40, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Now I'm blushing. :) Thanks to you too for your kind words and happy editing. Tiamut^talk 08:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

PS. I should probably let you know that I've nominated this article for the DYK page, though of course I hope your reservations are not so great that they would lead to a challenge to the nomination. Tiamut^talk 01:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Please do not use weasal words

Canadian Monkey and Jalapenos, I ask that you do not keep reintroducing weasal words like "speculates", "alleges" etc., in the text. Its enough to use "writes" and "Describes" and attribute any controversial material to its speakers. I've added another source for the estimate of the number who died.[1] Please do not keep attributing it solely to Finkelstein, he's not the only source (as you can see by the addition of Masalha and ther are others.) Tiamut^talk 23:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

As of now, I haven't made any edits to the article. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh goodness. I'm really sorry. I missed that it was only Canadian Monkey making those edits and not you. (He made them twice and I mixed up the talk page history with the article history thinking it was you the first time. Big mistake.) That you have only been discussing things in a very friendly fashion on this talk page is much appreciated and I'm sorry I misrepresented what you have done. Please accept my apology and regards. Tiamut^talk 00:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

It's really no problem at all. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

pov

the eyewitness section is highly reliant on single,partisan source. thelead presents as facts things which are claims by interested parties. NoCal100 (talk) 04:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. strange. I count five different sources in the eyewitnesses accounts section, not one. Three of them are survivors of the death march (partisan to be sure, but they are witnesses to the event and per NPOV, their views should be included. Among the other sources cited are a UN mediator and Benny Morris, hardly pro-Palestinian partisans.

Where does the lead present as fact things claimed by interested parties? I see a sentence that begins with "Surivivors describe ... " which is in line with WP:ATT, WP:V and WP:NPOV. Could you elaborate?

Also NoCal00, it's clear you just checked my contribs after I edited Ramot right after you. I hope you're not planning on wikihounding me for that. Tiamut^talk 04:19, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

the mediator was not an eyewitness to the march, and his comments are not relevant to that section, or even the article. more than 80% of the section is sourced to a single, partisan source.NoCal100 (talk) 04:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Even if true, I still don't see a problem with a section entitled "Eyewitness accounts" devoting 80% of its space to a single eyewitness account. There is another eyewitness account there that supports his. There is also the info from Benny Morris about the looting and hundreds of people who died that support these accounts. Don't forget too all the references cited in the first section, including the Oxford history book, a top-notch reliable source who confirms the general details of the Lydda Death March. Tiamut^talk 04:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

In short, I don't see how this a NPOV issue. It's really more a matter of style. Tiamut^talk 04:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

the "style" of pushing a pov by writing 80% of a section based on a single, highly partisan, source is not an acceptable style on wp. NoCal100 (talk) 05:01, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

As I said, the section is entitled "Eyewitness accounts". There are three eyewitnesses who are survivors of the event who are mentioned there. Its not unusual for a section entitled eyewitness accounts to give heavy prominence to eyewitness accounts. Tiamut^talk 05:42, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

PS. NoCal100, I'd appreciate it if you would remove the NPOV tag. The article was nominated for a DYK and received an initial approval from a DYK review volunteer about an hour before you placed the NPOV tag on it. I'd hate to have the tag in place when it appears on the main page. Clearly, the reviewer didn't see a problem with it and I think I've addressed your concerns here. Or is there still a problem? Tiamut^talk 04:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

yes, of course there's an issue here, and you've addressed none of it - you just stonewall. NoCal100 (talk) 05:01, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Whoa! That's a pretty serious accusation NoCal100. I think I've been pretty patient in responding to the concerns you've raised. To my credit in fact, given that you only found this article after checking my contribs after I edited right after you at Ramot and I feel as though your presence here is a pretty straightforward example of WP:Wikihounding.

Just in case, however, could you please repeat how this article fails to be WP:NPOV again and how it can be corrected so that I can try to deal with the problem in a way that meets with your satisfaction? Tiamut^talk 05:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Were you "patient" by WP:Wikihounding and reverting me at Ramot , or by running off to the ArbCom case to call for my sanctioning? Perhaps you can point out where you have responded to my concerns,other than to dismiss them.NoCal100 (talk) 05:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Again NoCal100, I'm going to have to ask you not to make serious accusations without basis. As I explained to you on your talk page, Ramot is on my watchlist and has been for a while. I saw you revert 3 times there in the last two days. Considering the Arbcomm case is open, that you were already warned by Elonka to avoid edit-warring there months ago, and there is a finding there with evidence to support it that you were engaged in edit-warring over the Judea and Samaria articles, I felt it was appropriate to note these facts, and voice my support for a restriction. That's not wikihounding NoCal100. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

I would note that instead of responding constructively to my request that you restate what your objections are regarding NPOV here and elaborate on ways that the NPOV problem you perceive can be corrected, you have chosen to accuse of me wikihounding. Baseless accusations are a violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. I suggest that you strike your accusations and instead respond to my question regarding how to improve the article to address your concerns. Tiamut^talk 05:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I was drawn here here via a link at User talk:NoCal100, which is on my watchlist. I looked through this article, and while the article is well-written and interesting, I also have some concerns about the article's neutrality. All the article's sources are known anti-Israel partisans. Nary is there any mainstream sources in support of the article's claims. Ideally, such outstanding claims should be supported by reliable and mainstream sources that have a reputation of neutrality.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to the party Brewcrewer! Regarding your claims that "All the article's sources are known anti-Israel partisans" and "Nary is there any mainstream sources in support of the article's claims," let's review the bibliography of the article, shall we?

• Ankori, Gannit (2006), Palestinian art (Illustrated ed.), Reaktion Books, ISBN 1861892594, 9781861892591 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)

Used solely as a source for the Artistic representations sub-section, she is an Israeli art historian.

• Benvenisti, Eyal; Gans, Chaim; Ḥanafi, Sārī (2007), Israel and the Palestinian refugees (Illustrated ed.), Springer, ISBN 3540681604, 9783540681601 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)

Used as a source for the Eyewitness accounts section, Eyal Benvenisti is Israeli, as is Chaim Gans. I don't know if they are "anti-Israel". Do you?

• Finkelstein, Norman G. (2003), Image and reality of the Israel-Palestine conflict (2nd, revised ed.), Verso, ISBN 1859844421, 9781859844427 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)

Used as one of two sources for the 350 dead estimate, Norman Finkelstein is a prominent Jewish academic who is highly critical of Israeli policies.

• Holmes, Richard; Strachan, Hew; Bellamy, Chris; Bicheno, Hugh (2001), The Oxford companion to military history (Illustrated ed.), Oxford University Press, ISBN 0198662092, 9780198662099 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)

Used as a source for the name Lydda Death March and the general details of the event, Richard Holmes (military historian) is an academic from Oxford University. I don't think he's an anti-Israel partisan. Hew Strachan is a promiment Scottish academic, also not an anti-Israel partisan.

• Prior, Michael P. (1999), Zionism and the state of Israel: a moral inquiry (Illustrated ed.), Routledge, ISBN 0415204623, 9780415204620 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)

Don't know much about Michael Prior. Do you?

• Ron, James (2003), Frontiers and ghettos: state violence in Serbia and Israel (Illustrated ed.), University of California Press, ISBN 0520236572, 9780520236578 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)

Or James Ron. Do you?

• Sa'di, Ahmad H.; Abu-Lughod, Lila (2007), Nakba: Palestine, 1948, and the claims of memory (Illustrated ed.), Columbia University Press, ISBN 0231135793, 9780231135795 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)

According to her page, Lila Abu-Lughod is a Palestinian-American professor of Anthropology and Women's and Gender Studies at Columbia University in New York City. The page says nothing about her being "anti-Israel".

• Thomas, Baylis (1999), How Israel was won: a concise history of the Arab-Israeli conflict (Illustrated ed.), Lexington Books, ISBN 0739100645, 9780739100646 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)

Don't know much about Thomas Baylis. Do you? Tiamut^talk 05:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Lydda Death March has now entered the queue for the DYK section on the main page. As I have responded in full to the concerns raised here to the best of my ability and as there is no evidence to support Brewcrewer's complaints or those of NoCal100's, I'm going to be bold and remove the NPOV tag. I would ask that before anyone replaces it, they explain why they are doing so in detail here. I would also ask that any identification of an NPOV problem be accompanied by concrete suggestions on how to address the problem so that we can move forward, rather than simply exchange opinions ad naseum on this page. Thanks in advance. Tiamut^talk 06:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I am restoring the tags, as you have not actually addressed any of the concerns. To name (again), but a few of these concerns:

• Article name: several of the sources (e.g Finklestein, Masalha) call it a "forced march". "Death march" seems to be a partisan usage. The Article should be renamed 'Forced March', and can mention that some Arab and pro-Arab sources call it a "death march"
• The "eyewitness" section contains several accounts which are clearly not eye witnesses (UN mediator, Morris, etc..). When stripped of those non eye-witness accounts we have a very large section devoted nearly entirely to a single, highly partisan account. This section also dominates the article as a whole, and as such, violates WP:UNDUE. The suggestion would be to trim this section to a 2-3 line quote from this source, and move (or remove) the non-eyewitness accounts to proper places.
• Sources: Highly partisan sources such as the al-Aharm article "commemorating 50 years of Arab dispossession" or AMEU should be removed, leaving only the higher quality sources.

• New material added since I last commented makes incorrect claims and attributes them to sources which do not make those claims (e.g: Al-Ramla and Lydda were not "renamed" Lod and Ramla, those were their Hebrew names, used throughout the mandatory period, and the source cited does not say they we renamed) NoCal100 (talk)`

Article name: Richard Holmes (military historian) and Hew Strachan are the authors of the The Oxford companion to military history (2001). These distinguished academics, neither one of whom are Arab, are the main source for the name Lydda Death March. They state clearly on page 64 "On 12 July, the Arab inhabitants of the Lydda- Ramie area, amounting to some 70000, were expelled in what became known as the 'Lydda Death March'." Another source cited using "Lydda Death march" is Baylis Thomas. This is not an "Arab" or "pro-Arab" name. Do you have a source to support this false assertion?

It is not WP:UNDUE to provide generous space to the accounts by eyewitness survivors. This article is about the Lydda Death March. People who survived are an important source for what happened that day. Their viewpoint is absolutely significant and relevant and per WP:NPOV it should be given adequate space. Bernadotte was a witness to the events in that he visited the refugee camp where they ended up. Morris is included there because his account supports the account by one of the eyewitnesses. It is very strange for you to argue on the one hand that eyewitnesses should not be given so much space and then on the other, complain that respectable academics like Benny Morris shouldn't be quoted in that section either.

The AMEU source is an account by one of the survivors. I think its good to have a link to that material since it is one of the only links available for viewing online. Al-Ahram constitutes a reliable source, I know of no reason to think otherwise. But you can take those to the reliable sources noticeboard if you want an outside opinion. I'm open to discussing this point further, but it really has nothing to do with NPOV, since those articles are not relied upon for any information in and of themselves.

The source cited for the claim that Lydda and Al-Ramla were renamed is = Monterescu, Daniel; Rabinowitz, Dan (2007), Mixed towns, trapped communities: historical narratives, spatial dynamics, gender relations and cultural encounters in Palestinian-Israeli towns (Illustrated ed.), Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., ISBN 0754647323, 9780754647324. I have no reason to believe that this information is incorrect. Remember that the relevant guideline here is WP:V. If you have another source that says what you say, please provide it. We can then attribute the Rabinowitz/Monterescu material to them and the opposing view to whoever it is that say that.

In short, your arguments are lacking reliable sources to support your position and I fail to see how they relate to the article being POV. Please remove the tag. Tiamut^talk 14:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Further, you do realize that the two people you cite as using "forced march" instead of "Lydda death march" are Nur Masalha (a Palestinian academic highly critical of Israeli policies) and Norman Finkelstein (a Jewish academic highly critical of Israeli policies): arguably the most 'pro-Palestinian' (scare quotes) sources cited here. Strange that. Your assertion that it is only "Arab" or "pro-Arab" sources who use "death march" is thus flatly contradicted by the facts. I assume though that you will be supporting the use of terminology as identified by Masalha and Finkelstein in other articles, since you seem to be arguing that their terms are more reliable than those used by Roger Holmes, Hew Strachan and Baylis Thomas. Or is it simply that in this particular case, you like the terms they use better than those used by the uncontestably non-partisan sources? Sounds a wee bit like WP:IDONTLIKEIT to me. Tiamut^talk 14:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I've just gone through the accounts of the events by Benvenisti et al, Gelber (not cited in the article), Karsh (not cited), Masalha, and Morris. I was going to restore the POV tag and comment on the article when I saw the exchange above. I think the article has serious problems in its current form, as follows:

1. Title: neither "forced march" or "death march" is appropriate for the title. "Forced march" means a march where soldiers are walking behind you and forcing you to keep going, and "death march" is a forced march where a large number of people die. None of the sources actually describe anything resembling a forced march. Masalha offhandedly calls it one, but the moniker is unjustified even by his own account of the events. An appropriate name would be "exodus" or perhaps "expulsion"-- the sources are in agreement that there was an expulsion, but do not agree on whether there was also a self-initiated flight. Even if there were a forced march, "death march" would be WP:WTA unless it had a wide consensus in the sources.
2. Lede: contains several important inaccuracies. Number of deaths is put at 350 per Masalha, but Morris speaks of "a handful, and perhaps dozens"; with such a discrepancy, the more mainstream scholar Morris should be given at least primacy. Number of evictees is put at 70,000, while Morris speaks of 50,000, Karsh 30,000 and Gelber 30,000-50,000. "Repeatedly shot over their heads to keep them moving" is taken from Rantisi's memoir, which is not a reliable source; the description is contradicted by Rantisi's own account in Benvenisti et al, where contact with Israeli soldiers is described as a couple of chance encounters, and is not supported by the other sources.
3. Sources: Rantisi's memoir and Abu Sitta's column in Al-Ahram are not reliable sources and should not be used per WP:V (but Rantisi's interview in Benvenisti et al is, since it appears in a scholarly publication). I would also recommend making use of Gelber's account, which is quite detailed.
4. Weight: Rantisi gets by far the most space in the article, including extensive quotes. This would be WP:UNDUE even without the reliability problem.
5. Omissions: the fierce street fighting waged by local Palestinian militiamen during the battle over Lydda would seem to be important context material. Also important is the order by Ben Gurion (which came too late) not to expel non-fighting residents, described by Gelber.
6. Style: occasional POV tone. For example, "long march into exile" in the last section: adds no information, and, since Lydda and Ramallah are about 20 miles apart, is misleading. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 15:40, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Let's start with the first, last. Ankori uses the phrase "long march into exile". I can atttribute it directly to her or change it. I don't see what the problem is myself, but I'm open to discussing different ways to phrase it.

Open to including sources on the "fierce street fighting". Can you provide them? Anyone who has reliable source material to add to the article is welcome to it themselves too. despite mountains of discussion here though, no one has done anything toward that end yet.

Rantisi is the most prominent of the survivors, has authored firsthand accounts (in AMEU and Al-Ahram) and is quoted the most extensively in scholarly sources (Benvinisti, among others). His account is recognized by the scholarship as the most prominent source for information on the details of what happened from the perspectives of the survivors. That's reflected int he weight given to his account in the Eyewitness section.

Please add Gelber's account yourself or direct to where I might find a copy. No problem with adding more, as I said above, either personally or via the additions of others. I disagree about the reliability of Ranitisi's accounts in Al-Ahram and AMEU. They are essntially the same as that quoted in Benvenisti. The benefit of including them is that they are some of the few sources that are accessible online for those readers who wish to investigate the matter further on their own.

Re: the lead. Number of deaths is put at 350 per Masalha, 350 by finkelstein and "hundreds" by Morris. Check the quote in the footnotes here and in a quote that was already in the article Lod before I recently edited it. So I don't see where you see a discrepancy. Number of evictees is put at 70,000 by the very reputable Oxford companion to military history (2001). While Morris may speak of 50,000, he disputes the expulsion order for Ramla (as noted in the text). Please provide the links to the material from Karsh and Gelber or add them directly to the article yourself. "Repeatedly shot over their heads to keep them moving" is taken from Rantisi's memoirs. They are a reliable source, only part of them is included in Benvenisti (the account there doesn't contradict so much as omit the full details of the account). This information is also clearly attributed to "Survivors accounts...." which is how the sentence wih this information begins, meaning that it is in line with WP:NPOV and WP:ATT.

Finally, as I said to NoCal100, those using "Lydda death march" are the British and Scottish academics and not Israelis, Palestinians or Jews. These guys have no bone to pick in this fight. I do not see a clear alternative to his name nor a compelling reason to ignore an authoritative source like the Oxford companion to military history which clearly states that these events became known as the "Lydda Death March". If you have another source that states that these events have become known as X, please provide it.

Hope I've fully addressed your concerns Jalapenos. Happy editing and a pleasure as always. Tiamut^talk 16:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay Jalapenos, I've attributed "the long march to exile" irectly to Ankori so that's out of the way. Canadian Monkey was kind enough to add some material from Efraim Karsh denying that an expulsion took place in Ramla (so that's a view that was not covered that is now). Estimates of the nubmer expelled have a range now from between 50,000 to 70,000 (the lower end figure coming Rabin's memoirs via Peretz Kidron, which Huldra was kind enough to provide). I added a tonne of stuff from Rabin into the Expulsion orders sections - lengthy quotes that give his thoughts at least as much space as the eyewitness survivors quotes in the section to follow. The only issue that I cannot address is that of the article name. I won't consider changing it unless we have an equally high quality source stating that these events are known as X to contrast against the very excellend Oxford military history source. So that's it I think. All major concerns dealt with, no? If there are any more problems, please let me know. I'm going to remove the POV tag given that numerous changes have been made to address what was raised. Tiamut^talk 19:19, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I just checked Canadian Monkey link about Karsh. Its not a reliable source. They are letters to the editor and one of them says Karsh makes no mention of Ramla and Lydda and its expulsions. So the conclusion that he says they did not happen is a little piece of WP:OR. Accordingly, I removed it. Do you have a better source for him? Tiamut^talk 19:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

And I also forgot to mention that the extensive quotes from Rabin partially address your concerns regarding the need for some context regarding the fighting backdrop. He mentions the villagers being armed, the need to protect the supply lines to the Yiftach, etc., etc. That provides someting toward the context you were looking for. No? Tiamut^talk 19:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and Rabin's memoirs confirm Rantisi's accounts that they were shot at throughout their journey (Rabin says for 10-15 miles) so I removed the attribution of that to the "Accounts from survivors...", letting it speak for itself given that key figures on both sides say it was so. I think it's safe to remove the POV tag. I don't want to offend anyone by doing so. But the article has radically changed as a result of the sources provided by Huldra, and sme other changes introduced since to deal with your concerns and I don't think most of the critique holds any longer. One thing I was thinkin is that we could move the AMEU and Al-Ahram refs to an external links section so people can read those accounts but we're not using them as sources in the article (a compromise you might find meets you halfway?) Tiamut^talk 20:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut, I appreciate your detailed response, but you haven't addressed my major concerns, and I still think the POV tag is warranted. Even the "long march into exile", which was only an example anyway, is still a flowery and inaccurate non-sequitur in the article, but sourced-- to an art historian. Regarding Morris, we may be referring to different books; I quoted above from The Road to Jerusalem. You are absolutely right in saying that I should edit the article instead of complaining. The problem is that I don't have Holmes et al with me, which is a reliable source that a lot of your stuff is coming from, so I can't evaluate it. I will make changes based on the five academic sources I have, though. This will include a title change to Exodus from Lydda, because the current title is (a) not standard - the sources I have do not use it at all, and Holmes et al saying that it "came to be called" that (presumably by Palestinians) is not saying that it is standard; and (b) inaccurate and misleading, for the reasons I stated above. There doesn't seem to be a standard name, but Exodus from Lydda fits the Palestinian Exodus trope, and less importantly, gets the most google hits of all the options I checked (including the current title). I want to expand on one methodological issue because it can affect a lot of other issues. Memoirs are not good sources, especially when compared to mainstream academic publications whose authors had access to the memoirs and could evaluate their veracity. This applies to Rabin's memoir, but even more so to Rantisi's, since he obviously has an ax to grind. This is basic stuff and can't be compromised on. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 21:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this page move, which seems to address one of the major points of contention, and was also mentioned by NoCal as one of his reasons for the POV tag. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

a few comments

Once again Tiamut has beat me to it; I had thought of starting this article for ages. Just a couple of comments (I`m really in a hurry, should not be on WP today at all..):

• I have the book by Audeh G. Rantisi (1990): Blessed are the peacemakers: the story of a Palestinian Christian, ISBN 0863470599 ......in case you need any quotes from there
• George Habash: the article does not presently mention him! And he was perhaps its most famous survivor. All I have read about him mentions the life-changing effects the Death march had on him. Look at the references on the Habash-page.
• In Pappe (2006): "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", p 167 say that the most detailed account of what happened in Lydda was published by the sociologist Salim Tamari, in 1998, in Journal of Palestine Studies.
• Some of the stuff relating to the censorship of Rabins memoir was related in "Blaming the Victims" (ed.: Edward W. Said and Christopher Hitchens), in 1988. I copied material from that book here:User:Huldra/Newstuff
• And now I got to run. Hope to come back tomorrow, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 16:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Love you Huldra, just love you. Everyone talks and talks and talks, but you're the one who delivers the good shit. ;) I'll take a look at all of this in the coming hours and days. Its gonna up on the DYK main page on May 2nd very early morning GMT according to the DYK queue. If I can get everything you added here into it before then, I'll be on cloud nine. You're a star. Tiamut^talk 17:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay. I added the stuff from Peretz Kidron in Said and Hitchens (totally invaluable resource that subpage of yours Huldra, thanks so much for that).

I also added a brief paragraph on George Habash. I cannot figure out which sources to put here from that article which support this specific information, so if you know, and can let me know, that would be awesome. I'll try to find the Salim Tamari article somehow. About Rantisi's book, perhaps Jalapenos do exist might like to see the quotes we have sourced to the AMEU or Al-Ahram sourced to that book directly. If you can find them there, that would be totally amazing.

Unfortunately, though I feel I've addressed many of the points raised on the talk page by those raising POV issues, I don't feel that we are making progress on that particular issue. Canadian Monkey just came by to drive-by revert to readd the tag, citing the talk page as evidence of a dispute. While I respect the points raised by Jalapenos, I think I've indicated my openness to addressing them if he provides sources to that end and I don't see the need to deface the page when there are no major issues that have not been addressed or that cannot be dealt with promptly if there are people willing to pitch in with solid suggestions and maybe perhaps even, dare I say it, edits of their own. Anyway, I hope this will all be cleared up before the DYK. I think this article is much better sourced that other articles on Death marches and many other articles on Wikipedia. But no one is going to believe the author of their own work eh? RfC comments would be welcome, but none are forthcoming. Too bad. :( Tiamut^talk 18:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Removal of sourced material

Tiamut has reverted an edit of mine, sourced to historian Karsh, with an edit summary that says "karsh doesn't evenmention[sic] ramla but rather speaks generally about a lack of expulsions - this is WP:OR and poorly sourced". As can be easily verified, Karsh is quoted in the given reference as saying "Contrary to Mr. Harris’s claim, parroted from his anti-Israel website, there was no expulsion whatsoever from Ramle". Karsh is head of Middle East and Mediterranean Studies at King's College London and a prominent historian of the Middle East - so it's very hard to see how this would be "original research" or poorly sourced. Perhaps tiamut can explain. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Well Canadian Monkey, I missed that sentence in a link to what appears to be a series of letters to the editor. Generally letters to the editor are not considered reliable sources. If it is Karsh saying this in your link, I would still prefer that we have link to a published work of Karsh's where he makes this statement than a link to a letter he wrote. But if you want to be pushy about it, I don't feel like fighting you on it, because Karsh is a reliable source, so you can put it back in. Please format it properly though, in line with other refs and place it at the end of the sentence you attach it to per MoS. I shouldn't have to clean up after you everytime. And please don't add OR sentences like "Historians disagree over whether or not ... blah blah blah ... unless you have a source that says that. ust let the facts speak for themselves. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 21:02, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

So, you did not read my source carefully (reading your comments in the previous section, it seems you read only the first letter, not Karsh's response to it), jumped to the mistaken conclusion that Karsh does not say in it what I quote him as saying, consequently reverted my edit with the false edit summary that "karsh doesn't evenmention[sic] ramla", and now having this pointed out to you is me being "pushy about it"? And you are now graciously allowing me to put it back it because you 'don't feel like fighting'? How about you correcting your own mistake? I encourage you to take to heart the message I left on your talk page, regarding the tone required if we are to edit this collaboratively. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

How about not being a *redacted* and heeding your own advice? Nableezy (talk) 22:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I've been editing this article in a collaborative way from the get go. How about you? Anything to add to the discussion beyond *redacted* and other personal attacks? Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I havent edited the article besides removing a tag placed by a notorious hounder, but as you have looked through my contribs you should have known that. Nableezy (talk) 22:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy to see you correct your earleir false statement that you did not edit the article. I hope you appreciate the irony in your describing your actions as reverting a "notorious hounder", when you had followed that very editor to this article in order to perform the revert, said revert being your only contribution to the article so far. So, anything to add to the discussion ? Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

A) I didnt follow him by looking through his contribs, you could say followed as in came after. B) Who did you follow over here? C) What exactly are you adding to the 'discussion'? D) Feel free to have the last word, I aint responding to further inanity. Nableezy (talk) 23:32, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't born yesterday, and don't mistake me for an idiot. What you did is obvious, and the edit trail speaks for itself. You have been at it for weeks now - and warned about it as early as 4/14 [2]. My contributions are in the article, and my discussions are available for all to see on the Talk page - you might want to glance at the top of this section to see who started this particular discussion and why. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I give up

I give up editing this article, when everything I have added from Pappe has been censored out, and the heading had been changed to "Palestinian view". (I did not know that The Economist was Palestinian) This is what has been removed, from Pappe (and it is Pappes language/wording):

The Economist of London also described horrific scenes that took place when inhabitants were forced to start marching after their houses had been looted, their family members murdered, and their city wrecked: "The Arab refugees were systematically stropped of all their belongings before they were sent on their trek to the frontier. Household belongings, stores, clothing, all had to be left behind." This systematic robbery was described by Spiro Munayar, who recollected:

The occupying soldiers had set up roadblocks on all the road leading east and were searching the refugees, particularly the women, stealing their gold jewelry from their necks, wrist and fingers and whatever was hidden in their clothes, as well as money and everything else that was precious and light enough to carry.

I´m not even bothering trying to insert:

The American Kenneth W. Bilby of the New York Herald Tribune was accompanying the Israeli forces in their attack, and reported seeing "the corpses of Arab men, women and children strewn about in the wake of the ruthlessly brilliant charge". Ilan Pappé describes Bilby, who wrote a book about the campaign, and a fellow American "embedded" journalists, as totally one-sided.

Goodnight. Huldra (talk) 23:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)