Talk:Physician

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Would

Would the title of this page not be better as "Doctor of Medicine". As far as I am aware "Doctor of medicine" would be what people in the US first thought of if they were asked to describe who a doctor was, and (and here I have to admit I have to go on US dramas) people describe medical doctors as "doctors" more than they do physicians. Also in most other parts of the world physician has a more more defined role. Therefore the title most appropriate would surely be "Doctor of Medicine" as this would differentiate between someone who holds a doctorate. Judderman85 15:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An "internist" refers to a physician who practices Internal Medicine. I changed D.O. from "Doctor of Osteopathy" to "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine", which is the official title according to the American Osteopathic Association. A dentist is not a medical doctor or doctor of osteopathic medicine. Dentists attend dental schools which grant the D.M.D. or D.D.S. degree.

Question: Is a dentist a specialization of physician?--User:LA2

Not in France (only the first year of studies is common to both professions). But there are specialized physicians (stomatologists) and surgeons (chirurgiens maxillo-faciaux) whose job overlaps more or less with that of dentists. Apokrif 11:25, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Other than the fact that we are naming types of doctors rather than medical specialties, this page duplicates medicine.

User:LA2: Yes, but we need a page that's titled "surgeon" because we want to document that a person was surgeon and the surgeon page could point to famous surgeons. So that page is part of a structure of physicians (this page), at the same time as it points to the art of surgery, which is part of the medicine structure. Which other way could we accomplish this? The words exist in our language (surgery and surgeon), so people will find need to link to them. We already have the same parallel structure with scientist and science and their subcategories.---- If you want a page for surgeon, then you have to add a link to this page like Surgeon

A physician is a rather American term. (From a historical perspective I don't see anything wrong with it, but it has largely fallen into disuse in Australia, and I suspect the UK as well.
Per se, I don't think a physician is someone "licensed" to practice medicine. A physician is someone qualified to practice medicine (the profession is much older than government registration of its members.)
The term "licensing" is an Americanism. We have the same thing in Australia, but its called "registration" here (I think its the same in the UK).

--- SJK

Yep, registration with the General Medical Council in the UK Derek

In Australia, we have a medical registration board in each state. --- SJK

Traditionally at least a GP is not a specialist; they are non-specialists, i.e. generalists. (Nowadays medical education is offering specialist training as a GP, but I still wouldn't say they count as a specialist -- for one thing, they don't get to charge anywhere near as much.)

Also, whats an "internist"? -- SJK

Minor spelling matter - I changed practice to practise, and it got changed back. As far as I'm aware, a doctor practises in a practice, by analogy to advise and advice. No? -- Khendon

Khendon - you are right - I accidentally lost your change due to an edit conflict between me & you. I think I've corrected it now. --- SJK

If you live outside the US that's true. Inside the US you practise in a practise. -- Derek

   No, in the US you practice in a practice. Practise isn't a word in American English.

What does this mean? (in the French section) "he can make replacements of liberal phsicians" Thortful 01:04, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Doesn't this article cover at least part of the same ground as doctor?

That article should be merged with this one, since this is a more appropriate title. --Jia ng 02:53, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The second paragraph clearly shows that "doctor" is a more appropriate title than "physician", since the latter is used in far fewer countries than the former.

Unneccessarily Americo-centric. JS.Farrar 17:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Doctor in the United States can refer equally to both a physician or a holder of a doctorate. It is common in America for one person addressed by another person as "Doctor" to have to explain to a third person in the conversation which one they are.

Also, please keep in mind that American English speakers are a supermajority (more than 2/3rds) of native English speakers (see English language), so reversing the current arrangement would confuse and frustrate a far larger number of Wikipedia users. --Coolcaesar 05:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As may be. Are we recording human knowledge, or insular Americans' prejudices? JS.Farrar 18:34, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm simply trying to point out that your argument fails for lack of universalization in the Kantian sense---it breaks down when one considers how each individual user (based on the probability of whom that user would be) would actually react to the proposed change. --Coolcaesar 22:36, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this article is confused between the American use of the term physician to mean medical practitioner, and the British (and other) use of the term physician to mean what in the US is called an internist. I think the article should be split, with one entitled Medical Practitioner for the American use of the word physician, as Medical Practitioner is a non-ambiguous term which applies to all, but only all, doctors who have passed MB ChB/MBBS/MD/DO/etc, and indeed (in Britain) is the legal term for what is popularly called a "medical doctor". A separate page should be created for internist/physician which explains the other use of the word physician. Obviously both pages should link to one another. Ceiriog 13:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

France

Overlaps with General_practitioner#France: generalities about the first six years of medical studies should be addressed only in Physician.

Restructure

Currently information regarding medical education and training is scattered amongst a number of articles. This information is at best duplicated, but a better description would be "fractured". Medical education and training vary considerably across the world, however the info in the various articles is often U.S.-specific. In an attempt to consolidate information regarding medical education and training, I have begun combining information regarding med ed/training into country-specific overview articles.

Today I have combined the information in the U.S. section of this article with the information in the U.S. section of Medical school into Medical education in the United States.

Cheers, --Daveb 09:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with your proposed revisions. We have a similarly confused mess in the articles on Lawyer, bar association, Juris Doctor, Admission to the bar, and so on (which I will fix when I have 6 hours to go through all of them). --Coolcaesar 18:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation

While cleaning up the disambiguation page Doctor (disambiguation) I noted that virtually all links to Doctor intend point here. After cleaning up those links to directly point here, I have pointed Doctor to this page and added a link to the disambiguation at the top. Kershner 18:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Robots

Heart surgeons are already being replaced by robots. http://www.dlmag.com/1653/robot-successfully-completes-unassisted-heart-surgery.html

Different meanings of the word Physician

This is my first ever effort at editing Wikipedia, so I hope I haven't made too many errors. As a physician myself (in both senses), I found the previous entry didn't explain clearly enough how the word has different meanings, especially inside versus outside North America. The web links show how different authorities use the word differently. I haven't yet entered any etymological references; I'll eventually try to do so. My school days are long gone, but I think both physician and physics have a common origin via Latin in an ancient Greek adjective. I rather like the old word physic — when used as a verb it used to have the connotation of a purge (laxative)! DavidB 22:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

As promised, I've added some etymological references. DavidB 20:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

What's the name of the shiny silver reflecting disc on the headband of the stereotypical physician in uniform?

I can't remember what it's called! Darkwhistle 02:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've found it referred to as a "head mirror". Figma 02:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Head mirrors are (or were)used for ear, nose & throat examination; a bright light was positioned adjacent to the patient's head, and reflected off the mirror, which has a hole in the middle and is positioned in front of the doctor's eye of choice. The bright light is thus reflected approximately parallel to the line of sight of that eye, to provide hands-free illumination. They take quite a bit of experience to use well, and are used much less now, as other techniques are available.DavidB 00:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure why head mirror redirects here, especially since it isn't even mentioned in the article... anywhere. It should be moved, and I'm going to do it if no one objects.Drchazz (talk) 06:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Doctors prone to being killers

"Medicine has arguably thrown up more serial killers than all the other professions put together." - This phrase is met in various forms in the following books:

Sitpond M. Addicted to murder. The true story of Dr Harold Shipman. London: Virgin, 2000.
Whittle BC, Ritchie J. Prescription for murder. The true story of mass murderer Dr Harold Frederick Shipman. London: Warner, 2000.
Linedecker CL, Burt BA. Nurses who kill. New York: Windsor, 1990.
Hickey EW. Serial murderers and their victims. In: Washington DC: Wadsworth, 1997:142.

I would like to add it to the article but am unsure where it would fit most appropriately, any suggestions? Malick78 10:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your work, but this information does not seem appropriate, to me, for this encyclopedia article. Perhaps if there were a study supporting these claims, it would be appropriate for the Serial killer article. Figma 18:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The British Medical Journal is happy to publish an article on this topic so I think we should be able to mention it. Also, since it is physicians who are seen as most likely to be serial killers, then it is a point suitable to both the serial killer and physician pages. Lastly, when the UK's two most prolific serial killers were Drs Harold Shipman and John Bodkin Adams, with 400+ deaths between them to their names, this is too important an issue to ignore.Malick78 12:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I regret to say that I too disagree with the inclusion of these assertions, which I consider out of place in what should be a fairly uncontroversial article on the meaning and rôle of physician. As Figma suggests above, perhaps these issues would be better placed in the serial killer entry; I am going to remove them from this article, as has been done before. --DavidB 08:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DBetty (talk • contribs) [reply]

What is controversial? Or did you mean unpalatable? Five sources suggests little potential controversy, and one is from the BMJ! If they are happy mentioning it why shouldn't we be? We are here to promote truth, and the truth is that serial killers are more likely to be doctors than vets (as noted here!). I feel a whitewash is being attempted here. What is the point in a 'regulation' section without explicitly pointing out its reasons and past failings?
The BMJ is a well-known but very general medical journal (which I read); it is not an encyclopaedia. The topic is physician, not the prevalence or otherwise of medical mass murderers.DavidB 08:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DBetty (talk • contribs)
Of course it's not an encyclopaedia. It's also not a fish... Most sources in wikipedia aren't encyclopaedias. What's your point? It's respected and authoritative. Yes the article is about physicians, but hey, this fact pertains to physicians and thus is very relevant. Just think, why are both of the UK's most prolific murderers doctors? Malick78 09:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Another article about physicians being prone to being killers is here. I really think this should be covered in the article.Malick78 10:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add to this debate, although it's died down: No; interesting as it may be, the information about medical serial killers should not go in. What if another survey found that an unusually high proportion of physicians liked classical music, for example? Or that more of them tended to have car insurance? Or that for some reason they tended to prefer red wine to white? Would we put this information in? No. This is an article on physicians. It should not be cluttered up with information pertaining to a tiny fraction of them. Malick78 should learn some elementary philosophy. If most philosophers are Greek, this does not mean that most Greeks are philosophers. Likewise, if most (or even many) serial killers are physicians, this does not mean that most physicians are serial killers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.140.238.13 (talk) 03:12, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The politics of the term 'physician'

The revisions to this entry have been embarrasingly political and far from academic. Its sooo important to stand alone - to perceive yourself as being superior. MDs just adore the idea that they can somehow be ALL healthcare, though they fail miserably in their attempt. Here and across the US they are crusading in an attempt to commandeer the title Physician, as if there is some logical basis. The embarrassing political fight over the term notwithstanding, the word "physician" existed long before the designation "M.D."

Overextending scope compromises patient well being. The focus on annoying and fruitless turf wars compromises good care as it results in the misrepresention of capability to the public. There is a dangerous arrogance generated in this non-academic climate. M.D.s will rarely stoop to hear non-MD recommendations, even when they are clearly appropriate.

Case in point: My chiropractic colleague has a diplomate in neurology (states that they take the same national board as MD neurologists). I brought in a relative whom he said demonstrated Parkinsonian syndrome. These symptoms started shortly after he began taking three psychotropic medication prescriptions simultaneously, to treat mild depression. The MD wouldn't listen to my chiropractic neurologist's concerns, stating without discussion that the treatment was 'appropriate.' Here an MD refuses consider reasonable issues raised by a non-MD provider, arrogantly defending his own authority. Four years later, the patient is still pill-rolling, but on one side and without progression. Still the MD won't listen. Finally, the patient decides on his own to go cold turkey. 6 months later, his shaking is reduced to mild and occasional.

I wouldn't think of going to an MD for foot surgery. I would never go to a psychiatrist. From an MD, I would never seek nutritional counciling, osseous manipulation or even wellness care recommendations. The true specialists in these areas are vastly superior.

Dentists, podiatrists, osteopaths, allopaths and chiropractors all have to clear equally high hurdles to get where they are. Any REAL and OBJECTIVE review of the cirricula will easily prove that. As the term dictates, these providers are healers in the TRUE sense of the term physician. Physician root derivation refers to healing, curing, treating.

So keep on altering this Wiki entry in violation of guidelines. Delete when you have no proof or logical justification. Your single-minded and politically motivated determination to stand alone will help to screw up the credibility of this site as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NickM61 (talk • contribs) 03:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I fail to see how your personal bias helps this dsicussion. However to clarify a few things:

Both the MD and the DC were mistaken: the patient did not have Parkinson's Syndrome and three psychotropics are not appropiate treatment for mild depression. If the patient was taking a medication that altered dopamine levels in the CNS hand tremor could happen (conjecture as you did not specify the medications). The standard of care for depression is to treat with one medication initally (usually a SSRI), and if after adequate time at a therapeutic dose symptoms persist change to another class of antidrepesant or auguement with other medications. And for treatment resistant depression try ECT. If the patients tremor persisted after cessation of medications, further work up could be considered based on the tremor (it could just be benign tremor: no treatment indicated)

Also your DC friend can not be certified by the same board as a neurologist. They are certifed by the ABPN, and only individuals who completed a residency in Neurology or Psychiatry may sit for that exam.

Also it should be noted that the overwhelming majority of psychotropic medication is not prescribed by psychiatryst, rather by primary health care providers that include: NP, PA, GP, and by non psychiatryst MDs. I find antipsychitryst views offensive, harmful and misinformed. Psychiatry is a subspecialty of medicine that requieres four years of training afer finshing medical school, and includes training in psychiatrich illness, neurological conditions, medical conditions that may cause or affect psychiatrict conditions, psychopharmacology and psychotherapy.

I do agree with you on that fact that denstists, podiatrist, DOs and MDs have very extensive trainings, that include pharmachology, human anatomy and physiology,biochemistry, the interpretation of laboratory tests and radiological imaging,and surgical training among many others. The trainig of DCs or NDs while adequate for the scope of their practice is not as comprehensive, as evidenced by their lack of prescibing priveleges or non surgical training.

Posted by Edalmc 5/22/07

Yes all have training in anatomy, physiology, etc. But only medical doctors go into extensive depth and understanding, rather than a superficial acquainting with body systems that others, even dentists undergo. Dare I say, they only learn these things as if to legitimise their claims as health care providers. And psychiatry is not a subspecialty of medicine, in the strict sense of medicine being 'internal medicine'. Medical subspecialties are cardiology, nephrology, respiratory, etc. Psychiatrists are their own specialty and have a seperate college. Hxseek 10:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

osteopaths

It is offensive against any bona-fide, real doctors that this article includes osteopaths as physicians. Any country in the world outside the US would laugh at such a notion. However, i am not surprised that such herb-pushers are called 'doctors' in America, where any scam that has the potential to be sold will be wrapped up and packaged as a legitimate entity. Hxseek 10:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response: In the US, DO's ( or osteopathic physicians) are essentially indistinguishable from MD's. They receive the same education apart from an extra class on the hands on techniques. They can even pursue allopathic residencies if they choose to do so. They are not "herb-pushers" as you may descibe Naturopaths. This is clearly stated in the article. Your anti-American sentiment is very apparent, but please do not confuse a Doctor of Osteopathy(rest of the world) to a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine(US). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.211.121 (talk) 20:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

major edit

(1) I have moved the comment on osteopaths from the first, etymology section to later on the page. This is not because I thought the comment was inappropriate; it was because etymology = where the word 'physician' comes from, and because ostoepathy was also mentioned further down. I'm a 'real doctor', but I don't find it offensive to explain that to some Americans, the word physician also covers osteopaths (+/- chiropracters & podiatrists). Equally, one should point out that this usage is rare outside the USA. (2) Some months ago, I made a big edit on this page about the different modern uses of the word 'physician'. This still seems to cause confusion, so I have tried to improve clarity on these meanings, by enumerating them, plus making a few other rather minor changes.

suggestion: (3) Create a separate page on medical education (= education of physician sensu lato = any medial practitioner before specialization), and move most of the current education section of this page to the new page. Detailed stuff on education of physician sensu stricto could be under internal medicine.

--DavidB 01:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Mea culpa -- I've just realised there IS a page on medical education, though a brief one. The suggestion about moving most of section 3 still applies, though.

--DavidB 01:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I've just added an extension to the etymology section, with a bit on the various synonyms for physician and their derivations.

I also note that an addition has been made to the first section, concerning what i would call the sociology of medicine and recruitment of its practitioners. Should this be included here, in a section on its own, or in a section under the article on medicine?

--DavidB 08:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Acording to the BLS in the united states, the average physician makes significantly more money than the average MBA, lawyer, and CA. The introduction need editing. Also, perceptions of prestige and parental drive to enter the field are far to subjective for the introduction to this topic

It may not be strictly encyclopedic, but it's also very true. While I only have personal experience, certain high school students are put under great pressure to study med by their parents. I do not have suitable encyclopedic evidence (hence, it can't be included in the article). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunny01 (talk • contribs) 10:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've created a very brief new section on social status, mving & editing the stuff in the previous introduction into this new section.--DavidB 04:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DBetty (talk • contribs)

Etymology of Doctor

The article incorrectly states that doctor

is a contraction of the Greek διδάκτωρ (didaktōr = teacher), from the verb διδάσκειν (didaskein = to teach).

This is untrue. As any first year Latin student could tell you, doctor comes from the fourth principle part of the Latin verb doceō, docēre. It is related to the Greek noun and verb listed above, but it most certainly isn't a contraction! My Oxford Latin Dictionary gives the etymology of doctor as simply [DOCEO + OR.]

--76.247.74.142 (talk) 02:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with that - the principle is the same in imperator ("ruler", "he who rules"), formed from the past participle imperatus,a,um of the verb imperare; other examples are venator ("hunter", "he who hunts") from venari, conservator ("he who conserves, keeps up") or saltator ("dancer", "he who dances") from saltare. Women would, strictly speaking, be referred to by adding a -rix, hence doctrix ("she who teaches"), imperatrix ("she who rules"), venatrix ("she who hunts"), conservatrix ("she who conserves") or saltatrix ("she who dances"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.160.99.85 (talk) 16:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nurse Practitioners

In some trepidation, I suggest that, even in the USA, Nurse practitioners are not generally described as physicians, despite a few recent edits to the contrary. Surely a good authority in this matter would be the American College of Nurse Practitioners, and certainly they do not describe themselves in this way. I'll try to make an edit (in the subsection on Osteopaths etc) mentioning that NPs often do work similar to some physicians, especially in primary care.

--DavidB 22:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Correct, in fact (in western countries at least) NPs and PAs are mid level practitioners. In a primary care setting a NP or PA often deals with much of the time consuming work that does not require personal attention by the physician. It is actually considered misrepresentation for a NP or a PA to identify themselves as a physician, similar to if a medical clerk put themselves forward as a nurse. ChillyMD (talk) 00:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They are definitely medical practitioners, but that doesn't mean they are described as "physicians." Can you provide some sources that refer to NPs or PAs as "physicians?" SDY (talk) 00:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Help

Sumone put up summin saying "hey my name is jj :)" && I cant remove it. smiles, miles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.200.192.202 (talk) 04:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted that edit yesterday. Try refreshing your browser with Crtl+F5. (EhJJ)^TALK 12:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology of leech & leechcraft

I have reverted the edits that question the etymology previously given, by saying that the old English word for physician "may" live on as the modern word for a type of parasite. There is little doubt about it. Please check the references given: OED or Shorter OED.

--DavidB 06:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Edits by round corner, round corner

I don't know what else to call him/her. Does anyone else see the merits of edits like this? A physician holds an MD, and a dentist is a primary care practitioner. The edit summary didn't make sense to me either. WLU (talk) 16:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User:Wishuponsarah

This user has continued to edit war/vandalize this article. They refuse to contribute to the talk page nor cite/source any of their edits. This user has been warned by many many other users before on their user talk page but simply continues to blank the warnings.

Can we have a community consensus/poll here to decide if we want to revert the vandalism edits from this user and to protect this page from further editing? Thank you. Jwri7474 (talk) 03:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I support a direct report to WP:AIV - the inappropriate use of disambiguation templates, poor choice of a heading, complete lack of any willingness to engage in any discussion in any venue, and ongoing page blanking suggests they're not here to help wikipedia, they're here to play a game. In fact, I'll ask my favourite go-to admin what she thinks. WLU (t) (c) ^{(rules - simple rules)} 12:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Physician as specialist in internal medicine

This older meaning is common outside of the USA: see the actual article for details.

The entry used to have a section on it, but I discovered this had been deleted without any explanation in this discussion page, apparently on 22 September 2008 by someone at 204.133.176.94

I suggest that restoring the section makes the article more accurate, and also makes the adjacent sections more sensible.

DavidB 05:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it looks better, and makes the article less USA focused. Ronhjones ^(Talk) 19:58, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have also just removed this recent edit from the 'physician & surgeon' section: "The 'Royal insitution of surgeons also known as RIOS' are a group of surgeons who have the advanced knowledge of body's anatomy".

First, I can find no reference to such an institution -- there are various royal 'colleges' of surgeons but not as far as I know any such 'institution'. Secondly, even if such a body exists, this section is on synonyms for 'physician', not surgery as a discipline. --DavidB 07:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Eye of Horus

This section looks like a lot of speculation without proper references. Jddriessen (talk) 12:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]