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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 135.214.42.68 (talk) at 22:44, 9 July 2009 (fixed a typo). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Reliable sources and NPOV

This article needs reliable, neutral, third-party sources. See WP:RS. Ensaaf is neither neutral, reliable (by WP policies), notable, or third-party. Human Rights Watch arguably is notable and third-party, and might be used as a source for charges, but the charges can't be presented as fact, which the original version of this article did (and which continues in some parts of the current version). Further, the article must be written with a neutral tone. See WP:NPOV. Priyanath talk 17:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ensaaf is definitely a reliable source. --99.51.223.161 (talk) 02:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, not according to Wikipedia policy on Reliable Sources, which is what we're talking about here. See WP:RS. Priyanath talk 02:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oddly, the press doesn't seem to think so... it seems to be silent. I note that the same was true of SATP until an editor cared enough to find the notability. HRW is the only point I see giving it any note at all, or I would have been chopping it out to the talk page. Wikilinks are always interesting but they have nothing whatever to do with notability... wikipedia is not at all a wp:RS. - sinneed (talk) 05:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And... thank you for making this your very 1st wikipedia post.- sinneed (talk) 05:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
NO! Sinneed, You might be wrong. There are 23,600 Google hits for this HRO. It appears that someone need to study them further. --99.51.223.161 (talk) 05:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Thanks dear editor for pointing towards these references, I tried checking them and picked few important ones from the first few search page results. It is definitely a notable organization and several countries/world level organizations relied on Ensaaf to issue their reports, so it is definitely a RS:
* United Kingdom Border Agency, interestingly, used the same 2 references at Ensaaf that I did, so at least I am in good company there. :) I see the linkage to Human Rights Watch, which does give some credibility, as I noted already. "Oddly, the press doesn't seem to think so... it seems to be silent." - remains true. Any hits? You haven't listed any. Again, I see this source as useful, but, like SATP, limited.- sinneed (talk) 14:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Point of view made clear on front page of the web site

The focus of Ensaaf is not human rights in Punjab, according to its front page, it is "A mission to end impunity". Its banner also says "End Impunity. Achieve Justice." and continues "Ensaaf is a nonprofit organization working to end impunity and achieve justice for mass state crimes in India, with a focus on Punjab."

Contrast to Amnesty International: "Amnesty International | Working to Protect Human Rights"
and to
Human Rights Watch "Human Rights Watch | Defending Human Rights Worldwide".

Clearly Ensaaf has a mission to end impunity. Therefore it has a strong (mission == strong) point of view that impunity is bad. Further it has a strong point of view that India committed "mass state crimes".

I am sure this is an EXCELLENT organization, and pursuing justice is for me a highly respectable thing to do. But having already decided the state is guilty, and that impunity must be ended so that there can be "justice"... stronlgy PoV. This does not make them useless as a source. It simply means we must be wise.- sinneed (talk) 19:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will read it further, but
Govt forces had enflicted mass scale punishments to ordinary civilians at such a scale- you are reading mass murders, mass cremations and so on .... that we really needed some dedicated org to save the innocent humans out there. Sikhs were murdered/raped in such a way that even their documented population has been decreased (per Indian stats) for the first time in Indian history. If required, I can provide references later.
but I believe that since United Nations, United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Human Rights watch and several other NPOV countries/organizations are using it as a reliable source while issuing their extremely important statements/reports then we shouldn't have any problem with it. It proves that it is definitely as reliable source.
Further their work was commended by a HRO Human Rights Watch, and UK government has noted it. It has successfully contested human rights crimes in courts of law and it has never favoured Khalistan. It shows that they have neutral theme.
Somehow, their website look more nice on Windows Vista than on windows XP etc. I do not know the reason. --99.51.223.161 (talk) 09:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If several countires and even United Nations are relying on it then there shouldn't be any issue about its reliability. It is definitely a RS.--135.214.42.68 (talk) 22:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Section on Terrorism/militants human rights violations

Human rights were violated by both Khalistani terrorists AND security forces. So I have added a section on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.51.223.161 (talk) 04:06, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dropped source...

published by "A group of dedicated Sikhs to create awareness about Sikh issues in Canada and abroad. Not even an organization named.- sinneed (talk) 02:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should this not be part of HR in India article?

Human rights in India

Would a merge be a good idea?- sinneed (talk) 03:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well! an article on mass cremations was recently deleted under the logic that said information should be preserved in this article. Both sides, police/indian security forces and militants violated the human rights in Punjab at a very large scale. So I beileve that this article should stay as a separate article. --99.51.223.161 (talk) 05:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What was the article name? If much work had been done on it, the content should have been merged here. Was there any substantial content? If so I could ask an admin to bring it back in my user space. I hate folks losing their work.--- sinneed (talk) 21:24, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the link to its AfD, I noticed this AfD when the decision was already made by admins.--99.51.223.161 (talk) 09:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Although I was the first to suggest merging this with Human rights in India, I guess we should keep this. The conditions in Punjab and J&K in the 80s and 90s do merit distinct articles on Human rights for the two.The one-sidedness of this article (somheow it seems only government agencies are capable of HR violations, and millitants and terrorists are not :-)) needs to be tackled. I guess Priyanath did merge content from "Mass cremations in India" to this article. --Deepak D'Souza 10:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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