Talk:His Dark Materials

Intro to talk page

Hope everyone's OK with the changes in this talk page, since it's getting pretty large I thought at least a start at organization might be in order. Nothing's been deleted from the page, just re-arranged (unless I screwed up). There might need to be a division of 'current events' and archived discussion or something along those lines. I don't know if there's a consensus (or at least a convention) on how to create a well-organized talk page on wikipedia, but I figured this was better than nothing. --Overand 05:38, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Article Meta-architechture Changes

What's everyone's opinions on changing Northern Lights, The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass pages to redirect here and merge their content into His Dark Materials? They're all plot-synopsis stubs, and considering their content is more or less duplicated here, they seem a little pointless...? - Taliswolf 11:25, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• I think keeping anything but general plot summaries here is probably a Bad Idea. Keeping the more detailed plot summaries in the links to the other books (and saying so in this article) is probably a good idea. --Overand 05:34, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
• Yes, I've just made the individual pages much longer by giving them full synopses of the boks that aren't appropriate on this all-embracing page. Work perhaps towards focussing more sprecific information on the individual pages, and more general information on these HDM pages.--alfakim 00:47, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Removal of 'Gyrocopter' + other Esoterics

I've removed this definition from the 'esoteric' section, as a gyrocopter is a very real and very current (at least in use if not inovation) flying machine in the real world. see: gyrocopter

The word Pullman uses is gyROPter, not gyROCOPter, and in either case, it seems worthwhile saying that Pullman is not saying Asriel has gyrocopters, but is saying that he has helicopters or a very similar variant.

I also think this may be more appropriate to remove, as naptha is also very real, although it's a bit odd that naptha is used as the main fuel, it's not an esoteric renaming/modification of a word. *Naphtha: Oil (as in oil-lamp, rather than naphtha-lamp). --Overand 05:05, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

In either case (this or above), I don't mind the removal.

Misc

In section Theatre One sentence was removed.

• Before
  • A theatrical version of the books has been produced by Nicholas Hytner as a two-part, 6 hour performance for London's Royal National Theatre in Q1 of 2004. All 126 performances at the 1110-seat Olivier Theatre sold out before the opening day. The play returned for a second run in November of 2004.
• After
  • A theatrical version of the books has been produced by Nicholas Hytner as a two-part, 6 hour performance for London's Royal National Theatre in Q1 of 2004. The play returned for a second run in November of 2004.

I thought the sentence was interesting. I could put it back but don't want to start an edit war - any other opinions? -- SGBailey 12:31, 2005 Feb 24 (UTC)

That was originally removed on claims of being totally untrue, are we sure it was true? --alfakim 00:44, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Good edit: the info was irrelevant (I've inserted 'popular' to replace it) and factually incorrect: performances were still available last year, and at the time of writing, are still available this year for part 2 -- taliswolf 00:46, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree with SGBailey totally, and the statement is correct, all 126 performances in that year sold out before the opening day,- that's definitely a point to mention since I know of no other plays for which this has happened- why does it matter that tickets are availible now, in 2005?

• Think of it this way, if you were doing research on this play for whatever project- isn't that the type of thing you'd want too know? And saying it was "highly popular" is less clear as it doesn't say what you're basing that on. - SiniStar 11:39, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I know without doubt that the statement that all tickets sold out before the opening day is untrue: I work at the National Theatre box office. Tickets were still freely available for quite a number of performances well after opening day. This is true for both the original (2003-4) and revival (2004-5) productions. -Urbane legend 15:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

---

82.37.217.24 added:

Pullman himself describes the target range as being 'young adult', and many say that the books are too intellectual in content for most children.

Can anyone cite either of these claims? Particularly the first one. -- taliswolf 23:38, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Offtopic Conversation

Why no one talk about the idea of dark matter, and that freedom of thought scares the church and how it echoes what HAS happened. The idea of a soul being a part of nature, and that Even Angels don't know who created them, just that they were first. Also the conotations of the Subtle knife creating a creature which takes life (every action has an exact and opposite action) --Arlechinio 23:29, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Cool books huh? I was thinking that perhaps an 'interpretations' sections is required on these pages. ie: a Themes section. What the hell the trilogy means. (That'd probably be the most likely reason for someone to go to a Wikipedia entry on them anyway, right?)--alfakim 01:16, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

---

Was I the only one who thought the Amber Spyglass was a major disapointment after the first two? The Fellowship of the Troll 03:54, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Maybe. r3m0t 15:55, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

'fraid so, as i found Amber Spyglass to be the most moving one of the three. I concider the first to as character and situation set ups that Spyglass could be written with out having to have to much explained in the begining.

Yes. Well, being the absolute hardcore fan of the books that I am, I can't agree with you. (By the way, I hate the word 'fan', it makes me sound like I do nothing but smile... I think the books are astounding works of literature that have indeed affected me profoundly, so damn well done Pullman, and hence I'm interested in everything HDM). Anyway, I thought The Amber Spyglass was an excellent end, but that Northern Lights was perhaps the best read. Spyglass was however a much more interesting book, and much more ambitious and daring. Hmm, I think I'd better sign this... --alfakim 01:17, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

'Fantasy Fiction Author'

Mind if I change this? He's written much more than fantasy.

Go for it, but you'll have to change quite a few pages. Cittagazze and Spectres pages also list him as a fantasy fiction author. If you're prepared to change all the links, go forwards, but: what would you describe him as? --alfakim 14:40, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Just as an author, I don't want to limit him. --Mongreilf 14:48, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm not too vexed by this so if you want to go round changing them all to "author" I say it's a good move. From the ever HDM-loving Wikipedian: --alfakim 00:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

High Detail Synopsis

I think the long high detail summaries of the books detracts from the quality of this article. I believe these summaries should be removed, moved to the individual book pages, or severely reduced in size. Wikipedia:Article size recommends an upper limit of 20-30 K in length, on average, but this page is 80 K long. I know that I personally tired of reading the article and failed, initially, to notice the sections below these long summaries --Jacen137 18:48, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

You are totally right, but as the author of the whole lot of it I couldn't quite bear to have it all deleted. I've taken it upon myself to move the three synopses to the individual pages for the seperate books, and resorted-out the original HDM page. The high detail synopses are now in a much better place, and I recommend a better cleaning up/expansion of the individual book pages. --alfakim 00:42, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

I've also made sure that only the 'See also' and 'Other links' sections come after the high detail synopsis so that nothing is missed on the article because of it. For 'see also' sections, people automatically scroll right to the bottom, so this is, I think, perfectly okay. To reiterate what I've now stated above, I think work should be done to focus specific information on the individual book pages, and have more general HDM information on the main HDM page. --alfakim 00:51, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

I like the changes. I think they work to make the HDM page more readable and attractive. --Jacen137 05:36, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Added tiny bit about related books

I thought it might be nice to reference some of the other books that are often compared to HDM. However, I am not sure how much detail is good. I offer the following line as an alternate in case the text used is too detailed.

The trilogy is often been compared to other epic children's fantasy novels such as The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis, A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle, the Young Wizards series by Diane Duane, and the Harry Potter series by J. K. Rowling. --Jacen137 05:56, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciations

• Is it possible to use genuine phonetic notation here?
• Some of the pronunciations are questionable - any way of checking them?

In particular:

• Panserbjorne: isnt it 'pan-ser-buh-yorn'?
• Pantalaimon: pan-ta-LIE-mon (isn't it LAY-mon?)
• Æsahættr: AYS-hayt-er (AS-hat-er? ice-a-HITE-er? which one?)

These words were pronounced 'pan-ser-buh-yorn', 'pan-ta-LIE-mon', and 'eye-shatter' in the NT production. Pullman was consulted on many issues during rehearsal, I assume this was one of those issues - though of course I wasn't in the rehearsals themselves! --Urbane legend 18:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm unsure about Kirjava. Finnish stresses the first syllabe. -- Kizor 20:43, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to edit the article based on the above two points - they seem potent enough to merit a change until a greater certainty is found.--alfakim 16:18, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I added in the IPA transcriptions. As for the pronunciation of "Panserbjørne", I reckon it should be along the lines of "PAN-ser-byer-nuh" rather than "-byor-", since Scandinavian ø is pronounced a bit like er. Also, I think that "Æsahættr" being pronounced "eye-shatter" sounds wrong. Etymologically it's from the Old Norse Æsir ("gods") + hættr ("dangerous" I think), so I think the "s" and "h" should be pronounced separately. Maybe Pullman wasn't consulted on this word. But I don't know whether it should be pronounced as "ASS(a)-hatter" (like Old English) or "EYE-site-er" (like Old Norse). --Dave ~ (talk) 14:46, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

Panserbjørne v. Panserbørne

In my editions of Northern Lights (British English and German), it's "Panserbjørne", but in Alfakim's it's "Panserbørne". On Google, "PanserbJørne" returns 322 results, whereas "Panserbørne" returns 12. Maybe the spelling is without a "j" in some editions, to aid pronunciation (since the "j" is pronounced like a "y")? If so, perhaps Alfakim wouljd like to add a note to clarify this :) --Dave ~ (talk) 13:53, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

Well, my only note will be my edition of Northern Lights: Scholastic Ltd. / Point; 1998. But let's stick to the J. --alfakim 13:57, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Just so this point is taken seriously, I've taken some photos:
This shows that it's by no means a misspelling in my version, because it is consistently spelt without a J. Does anyone have a picture of it spelt with a J? --alfakim 12:22, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

• I'm intrigued by this, which is, I have to admit, perhaps a little sad :\ Sorry, but I haven't got a pic because I've lent my copy to someone - I've only got the German version with me, and there's a "j" in that edition. It also doesn't really clarify why there are more hits on Google for "panserbjørne" than for "panserbørne". Also, from my (albeit limited) knowledge of Scandinavian languages, "panser/bjørne" means "armoured-bear", whereas "panser-BøRNE" means something like "armoured-children". Surely P.P. can't have made a mistake? --Dave ~ (talk) 17:37, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

• Aha. I just found this, so obviously we're not the only people who've picked up on this: "It looks as if this a difference between the US and UK editions. The Golden Compass has panserbjørne (plural) and panserbjorn (singular) and Northern Lights has panserbørne (plural) and panserborn (singular)." Sorry, it seems like we were both right after all :P --Dave ~ (talk) 17:42, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

• • So which spelling becomes the official Wikipedia spelling? Non-patriotically and objectively, I say we actually go with PANSERBORNE/BORN, ie, no j, because it's a UK book written by a UK author in the UK, first printed in the UK, and also wikipedia uses the UK title of "Northern Lights" to refer to the book.--alfakim 22:50, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

• I have Panserbjorn in my Portuguese book, but I bought Northern Lights in the UK and it says Panserborn. I think if it says panserborn in the original, we should stick to it. If it was a mistake, they probably would have corrected it in the new editions of the book (or not :P)

--goncalopp 00:08, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

• Personally, I'd rather see "panserbJørne", since it makes more linguistic sense. But I wouldn't object to "panserbørne" - it only appears once in this article anyway and, as already pointed out, it's "-børne" in the original (even if most, if not all, translations use the -j-). In the pronunciations section, both versions should be shown, IMHO. --Dave ~ (talk) 13:29, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Religion: evolution??

"Many people would also disagree with his religion, which is evolution, because of the enourmous amount of evidence disproving it."

I just don't get this evolution thing. Is evolution a religion?? Shouldn't this be corrected?

Hmm. Aside from the syntax, I see two problems with that statement:

• Evolution is not a religion - it's a scientific theory with an enormous amount of evidence in support of it. It's not a proven theory, but that doesn't mean it's a religion!
• The author of the statement unreasonably assumes that the evidence against evolution automatically disproves it. --Urbane legend 18:47, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reverted after someone vandalised it. I agree with the vandal that these books are ungodly, but that's no excuse for denying the public facts about them - furiouscommie

On Film:information on Chris Weitz

"Prior to resigning he rejected a script by Tom Stoppard and controversially indicated that the film would make no direct mention of religion due to the viewpoint the books suggest. This however may not still be the case."

this text was removed by 152.163.100.10 today. I realy don't see what's the problem with it. What do you thinkm should we revert? goncalopp 03:20, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Legal Issues?

I'm not sure I understand exactly what the legal issues referred to here -

"Due to legal reasons, it is almost certain that the actors chosen for Will and Lyra, twelve year olds, will be sixteen or older,..."

Is there some kind of law against hiring people younger than sixteen in the UK for acting, or is there some other reason(s) I'm not aware of? --Aerodotus 00:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

SPOILER >>> No, they must be sixteen or older because they have to fall in love, definitely have to kiss, possssssibly have to make love. Imagine the controversy over having a highly erotic scene (even just the kissing is pretty passionate) between 12-year-olds? --alfakim 09:20, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

This appears quite speculative to me, and I think it should be removed -- we don't know what adaptions the film's screenplay will make, and the actors have not been cast to date. MC MasterChef 11:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Pointless References

There seems to be a trend in this article to reference other totally unrelated books by other totally unrelated authors. What is the point in mentioning that Clive Barker also once wrote a book involving a multiverse? I'm sure millions of writers have. The reference is almost stupid, it's like some fan of that book was desperate to give it some fame in connection through this page.

The same applies to "comparing HDM to other books in terms of popularity." That's just so vaguely related that it certainly can't be encyclopaedic. Why do we need to reference a whole load of other fantasy books before saying "HDM is pretty popular."

Lastly, HDM isn't as popular as Harry Potter. Harry Potter lays HDM out flat.

I wrote this here just in case someone objects. --alfakim 10:23, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

"though is by no means to be considered of the same genre or type of writing." Why not? What genre should we consider it, then? What genre should we consider these other books? Why is an encyclopedia article telling us how we should consider? This addendum appears to be a POV on the part of some HDM fans to me, who would like to see their favorite work elevated above "mere" fantasy, and I believe it should be excised: the fact that the books are compared should be sufficient, I would think. It offers context for readers looking to place the book in popular culture; the mention in the lede of other author's multiverses, on the other hand, seems fairly irrelevent to me, and could probably be removed if you really find it that distracting. MC MasterChef 11:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Symbolic meanings of daemons

What's the source for these interpretations, anyhow? MC MasterChef 22:20, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Seconded, if they are not from HDM itself (and I don't believe they are), then surely they do not belong on Wikipedia, as they are 'interpretations' rather than fact. Jalada 08:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I think they are not from HDM, they're standard symbolic meanings. However they're valuable, because Philip Pullman has probably chosen the daemons accordingly. --goncalopp 11:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Again, according to who? Standard in which culture? And do you have any source to suggest that Pullman chose them precisely according to the meanings listed here? If not, I'm going to remove them. MC MasterChef 11:43, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

daemon table edits/revert

NoMass reverted my changes to the article yesterday; I have no desire for an edit war, but I feel they should be reinstated. For one thing, I changed more than just the daemon table in my edits; if it absolutely has to be in this article, I would prefer s/he revert just that section.

I deleted the table for a number of reason, first of all because I felt it was an unsightly way to present information; this article already has some very long lists in it, and I generally prefer prose when at all possible. Second because I believe symbolic interpretations of the daemon's form are not directly relevant to this article, unless a case can be made that Philip Pullman himself was consciously choosing them on the basis of that interpretation. To be clear, I have no doubt that the rabbit in Pagan mythology symbolically represents the Moon and Resurrection (I have no idea, really), I just don't know that that necessarily has anything to do with rabbit daemons in HDM. NoMass in his/her edit summary promises sources, to which I say fine, but even assuming such evidence is produced, I still don't think the information belongs in this article, which is about the books. We have an article on the concept of daemons in His Dark Materials and individual articles (with their people) for any notable ones -- wouldn't this information be better placed there, rather than in the general overview page?

I would appreciate your comments on this matter. MC MasterChef 22:26, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Response. Or as you desired: comments Well, I have to say that I agree with you. But my opinion on the matter differs from yours. For one thing, I think that being an encyclopaedia, wikipedia is a great font of information. We all contribute to this marvellous centre of knowledge to forward this ideal of an interminable ocean of information. We should thus put as much into it as possible. MC MaserChef observantly notes that this HDM page is becoming too “listy”, if we can so put it like that. But his own post, with descriptions of the characters, is nothing more than a list itself. Sure, I like prose as much as the next guy, but for the topic of deamons, I think it more appropriate to list them in a concise and easily readable format. Let me explain why. When attempting to understand the representation that Philip Pullman has given this creation, one needs to have a precise overview of how he is creating these personas. To do this, we have to look at the books as any historian looks at his subject of his interest. If you browse any historical related article, you will note that a story is being constructed by the narrator. (if fact, the word “history” derives from the latin of “story”) This is how history is written; using interpretation. Anything which is “interpreted” is intrinsically constructed through a subjective perspective. Now, to clarify, this website is an encyclopaedia, which, invariably is a transcript of history. HDM is something that we do not just present as some lifeless object. It has gone through the lives of every person that has read it, and essentially changed it. (Who can say that they were not changed but these books?) Thus, the books have infused themselves in the current of human existence and experience. They have become a part of our history. I therefore wish to understand how they have changed our world. To do this, I try to look at the books as what they are in our society: objects of art. Philip Pullman is quite evidently an artist. He works like all other artists have: by learning and understand, almost digesting, that which has come before, and that which is present, and happening all around us. With regards to the Present aspect of the book, it is obvious how he has infused our current understanding of Science, Religion, and Love into HDM. But when looking at how the Past has infused itself into the books, we must look at it like all Historians of Art look at creations. Historians will attempt to read the meanings and construction of the books based on what they know and what they can find out. It is no chance that Lyra’s daemon is an Ermine in most of the story. Throughout western history of Art, it has always been common knowledge that the Ermine has symbolized Purity. This has come from what the historians of Renaissance art discovered. Throughout the history of the Renaissance, symbolisms emerged as the chest of esoteric understanding. During this period, the rise of alchemy and other esoteric mysticism was extremely widespread. This use of symbolism was depicted but the Artists themselves. Thus, from the great books left to us from the Renaissance we can come to know what these symbols represented. Philip Pull has impregnated HDM with a wide variety of these symbols. And we can tell that they are symbols taken directly from the art of the Renaissance. In fact, most of the book makes reference to the esoteric realm. Lyra’s daemon is commonly an Ermine throughout the book, until the point in which she kisses Will. At that moment, love bursts from that kiss like a flower opening to the world for the first time, flowing through their spirits out into the entire universe. From then on, Pan becomes fixed. He will never again be an Ermine because Lyra will never again be pure and innocent; she has now grown up. From these clues and others, it seems quite obvious that one can attempt to “read” these books in the same way that an Historian can “read” a painting. It goes without saying that it will inevitably be a subjective “reading” of the painting. But that is what history is all about, constructing it. If we do not “read” these books in this manner, we are almost not reading them at all, because Phillip Pull has obviously and blatantly constructed the stories in a way to be able to be read in this manner: like all objects of art. These books are objects of art, and should therefore be treated as such. They have being given to us to contemplate, enjoy and to change our lives. The only way to present these books it to give them their own historical understanding. And I for one think they are most deserving of such an honour. They are great masterpieces; and deserve energy poured into them, like Dust pours into our souls. They deserve to be part of history. It is us who have to give them this history. And thus, I have tried to understand them; to render their story of their integration with my life. And thus, I come to the conclusion. You are right in that the Daemons should be one their own separate page. I shall therefore move them to the Daemon page; without excluding the symbolic interpretations, because they are why we are here. NoMass --NoMass 20:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, NoMass, for your comments. I appreciate your devotion to the books -- they are my personal all-time favorite stories as well, and Pullman's craftsmanship is truly impressive. However, I still feel the daemon table as it currently stands is inappropriate for Wikipedia, even in its new home at the Dæmon (His Dark Materials) page.

Your reading of Pullman's choices for daemons could be right; not having any background in animal symbolism, I have no reason to do doubt it. But I also have no reason to doubt an assertion that PP simply made Pan a Pine Marten after an amusing trip to the zoo once; unless you can cite something to the contrary, you appear to be conducting original research, directing me authoritatively on how to read Pullman's masterpiece. As I'm sure you know, Wikipedia has a policy of maintaining a neutral point of view to the greatest extent possible, and by presenting your personal subjective interpretation as the authentic truth, you appear to me to be deviating from it. An encyclopedia article is not the place to exhaustively discuss all the themes and techniques of a literary work; it is a place to summarize existing, verifiable information about that subject -- perhaps offering a range of leading schools of interpretation to choose from, if they exist -- and allow the reader to draw their own conclusions based on their own perspective. There are many fan forums on the web to discuss HDM, and some material that might be better discussed there is not as appropriate for this project.

To conclude: if you can quote me an art historian or some other figure talking about the symbolic meanings of Pullman's choices, I would definitely say add it into the article (with that attribution). But if not, the language (or table) as it is currently written seems too broadly speculative and POV to me -- what does Carl Jung's moth have to do with Pan's first form? in which culture does the snow leopard symbolize "understanding one’s shadow side"? (please remember, not all readers share the same backgrounds as you or I might) -- I believe it needs to be either sourced or removed.

I hope others will weigh in on this as well. — Your server has been MC MasterChef :: Leave a tip — 23:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

P.S. - Is there any objection to my reinstating my earlier changes, now that the table has been removed? I realize my prose was not exactly brilliant on the character summaries (I did the best I could, without having a copy of the books on hand), but they were intended as just that -- summaries, with the links to more detailed articles. — Your server has been MC MasterChef :: Leave a tip — 23:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Merging people and daemon stubs

I merged Kirjava with Will Parry, Stelmaria with Lord Asriel, and Pantalaimon with Lyra Belacqua. Let's not have intercision on Wikipedia!

Also, we had a Mrs Coulter and a Marisa Coulter. I merged the contents into the Marisa Coulter article with a redirect at the other. MC MasterChef 08:58, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Literary themes

Reading the talk page first, I think that I should flag this up here before I get round to putting this in the article: I know some people are agaist mentioning themes and symbolism in the article, althoguh I don't know why -- it's a big part of understanding any book. Anyway, I'll take one obvious one: love. Look at these examples and tell me whether this should go in the article

• The love between Will and Lyra. Quite obvious.
• The brotherly love between Baruch and Balthamos.
• The love that Mrs Coulter and Lord Asriel hide.
• The parental love from Mrs Coulter to Lyra.
• The love as a nation from the Gyptians to Lyra.
• The protective love from Iorek Byrnison to Lyra.

And so on. tommylommykins 19:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I have no objection to including themes in this article, as long as we can cite sources pointing them out (WP:NOR). "Love" doesn't really strike me as an informative or accurate theme, though. In fact, just about every story written in human history could be argued to have "love" as a "theme" from the above qualifications, and if anything His Dark Materials has less "love" than the typical fantasy novel. Additionally, every one of those instances of "love" is actually a very different concept: "national love", "protective love", "parental love", "romantic love" etc. are all such different concepts that many languages (Greek comes to mind) actually have distinct words for them. The fact that English doesn't does not make them all identical. "Love" is just too generic for me; you could just as easily say that "relationships" or "conflict" or "discovery" is a theme of His Dark Materials, and be no more or less correct! Just because something is a significant part of the plot doesn't make it a relevant theme; where's the message? Look more into the Biblical symbolism and Dust and so on for major themes of HDM. -Silence 19:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

*bangs head on corner of nearby table* NOR -- Looks like this comment is going to stay on the talk page tommylommykins 22:14, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The major themes of HDM are anti-religious dogmatism, and, although disputed, anti-christianity. it focusses on enjoyment of life and carnality and [everything that eve did "wrong"] - it uses the symbols of original sin, via dust = consciousness, saying that free thought, not dogmatism, causes you to be conscious (tree of knowledge). ok so that wasnt so coherent, but it's a religious book, not a romance.-- Alfakim --  talk  16:40, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Young Adult comment FYI

FYI - someone said in an edit summary that "Pullman didn't explicitly say that the target audience is "the US definition of young adult"". To the contrary, Pullman has indeed specifically said that he liked the U.S. young adult category, which apparently does not (or did not) exist in Britain. It's been a long time since I've done much (non-daemon) HDM-related, so I'm rusty on sources, but I'll dig the source up if need be. (It's not particularly important, just avoiding misinformation.) AySz88^-^ 05:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Dæmons in multiple worlds?

The section 'Plot summary' contains, "In the alternate universe of Lyra Belacqua, the story's protagonist, and many other universes not including our own". I couldn't say which book it is or where, since I don't own any of them, but I came away from the series with the definite impression that Lyra's universe was the only one in which people had external dæmons. Could someone confirm or deny this?