Talk:Chicago-style Pizza

Edit note

I removed the following paragraph:

The stuffed pizza is a signature dish of the city of Chicago, and can be difficult to obtain in other parts of the US. Though imitations and "deep-dish" style pizza are advertised throughout the country, it is often if not always lacking the same ingredients, consistancy and quality as the deep dish pizza found in Chicago. (Some claim that the crucial ingredient is in fact the water of Lake Michigan.) Thus, if you're looking to acquire some authentic Chicago-style taste, look no further than Giordano's, the original Pizzeria Uno in downtown Chicago, or any of dozens of smaller chains and individual proprietorships serving them up hot out of the oven. Tbat said, a number of other proprieters around the country do deserve honorable mention. Of these honorary Chicago-style pizza restaurants, perhaps the most noteable is legendary Zachary's pizza of Berkeley, California, which has been voted the best pizza in the Bay Area by the East Bay Express for 18 years running (as of 2005).

The whole paragraph was POV—basically free advertising for various pizza shops. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 14:55, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

Might want to reconsider I have some information here that says this is the original chicago-style pizza restaurant we might be talking about. I can vouch for Zach's as well, I lived in Emeryville for awhile and I have never seen anything like that in pizza. They are monstrously thick. --Rakista 06:26, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

List of restaurants that serve Chicago-style pizza

Some people should find more and more restaurants that serve Chicago-style pizza and should make a list of restaruants that serve it along with their locations. --SuperDude 03:28, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

• Sigh* I miss Chicago-style pizza.

Sources of mail order

I don't have the resources here being in Houston, Texas, but I would like to see a compiled list of restaurants who will ship Deep Dish pizzas. Online sources are limited to those with decent websites and programmers, but I'm, sure other restaurants are out there.

NO SUCH THING AS "CHICAGO STYLE THIN CRUST" I removed the section of this article which described a "Chicago style thin pizza" The reason is that this "style" of pizza was already common in other major world cities before it became popular in Chicago. Thin crust pizza has never been distinctly a Chicago invention, even though it is commonly served there. Thin crust could just as easily be called Philly, St. Louis, or Milwaukee style pizza. There are literally thousands of places across the globe that offer this style thin crust (or flat pizza as it is nicknamed in Chicago) and none of them outside Chicago term it as "Chicago thin crust" The flattened crust was a style of Italy, Sicily, and later New York City and has become the most common style pizza in nearly every U.S. city. The square cuts were first seen in St. Louis style pizza.

Your claim is tantamount to a fib. Chicago style thin crust is a very thin and crispy crust, sometimes like a cracker crust if I may be so descriptive. The square cuts have been the way it was served here since pizza first came here. There is no proof St. Louis served it this way before Chicago. What a fantastically ridiculous assertion.76.237.194.108 (talk) 01:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Calgary?

I remember seeing someone added a note about there being Chicago-style pizza available in Calgary. I can independantly confirm that there are an abnormal ammount of Chicago deep dish pizzarias here, and it may be worth noting for future refrence. --Insomniak 10:44, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Pizzaria Duo has outlets accross the U.S. and North Amercia now.Ace-o-aces 20:03, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I really don't want to sound arrogant but I'm a Chicagoan and I travel all over North America for work and I see Chicago-style pizza's everywhere. I don't think it's just a Calgary thing. I don't know if it deserves a special mention.

Jasenlee 04:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

No, theres mindless people everywhere that think Chicago Pizza is good. Chicago pizza is P.I.N.O. (pizza in name only)

You must be from New York :P —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.73.199.69 (talk) 15:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

Thin crust

I was unaware that there was a specific type of thin crust pizza unique to Chicago, despite having lived there for 99% of my life. Perhaps It just never occured to me that thin crust pizza wasn't like that in other cities. It there a reference for this fact?Ace-o-aces 20:05, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if there's a reference, but thin crust in Chicago is definitely distinct from the rest of the country. I also will say that Aurelio's is not a good example of chicago thin crust -- the crust is much too thin and crackery. A real chicago thin crust is thicker and chewier, with a lot of oil in the dough. 66.146.207.35 21:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this is specific to Chicago but to many areas of the midwest in general. I've gotten this form of pizza at many small pizza establishments. I can name 4 in the neighborhoods I used to live in in Columbus Ohio (B&B on Karl Rd, Teritas on Cleveland ave, a shop on Oakland Park that no longer exists and Enricos on Franz rd). I've seen multiple references to Milwaukee on the internet for this style of pizza (http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/351980 for example). One might make a slight distinction in that at most places that I'm familiar with there is a very small lip of plain crust at the edge of the pizza but I've also seen it without. I was disturbed that I couldn't find such a thing in the Boston area until I discovered just how regional it was and settled for finding recipes and making it myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.9.61.89 (talk) 22:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

"Tavern Pizza"?

Seriously, WTF? Some person keeps trying to claim that Chicago thin crust is "commonly known as tavern pizza." This is simply not true. Why would a pizza joint call its pizza that? It really doesn't make any sense, and I wish that person would stop doing that. Pdpp 19:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Photo

Chicago Deep Dish is almost exclusively known (and famous for) having the tomato sauce on top. The picture in the article should have a pizza with sauce on top.

• It's stuffed crust not the deep dish that has the sauce on the top. Though I do agree that the picture should probably be changed. Outside of Chicago there's a couple companies marketing "Chicago Style Pizza" as thick-crust pan-pizza-type things but that's not really what people in Chicago think of as Chicago-style (which would be stuffed or the south-side thin-crust style). It does raise the question though or what should be considered the definitive type of Chicago pizza. My vote goes for the stuffed crust. The deep-dish isn't really all that much different than Pizza Hut when you get right down to it (though saying so will make some Chicago residents scream); the thin-crust isn't much different from a New York thin-crust (again the screaming) but the stuffed crust w/ its inch-of-cheese pizza/casorole nature is really unique.

• • Well, I've had the original deep-dish pizza at Pizzeria Due, and it certainly had sauce on the top. It's also standard procedure in every recipe I've ever seen -- if you don't put the sauce on the top it makes the crust soggy and turns the filling into lava. As for what the "definitive" Chicago pizza, I've spent a total of five days of my life in Chicago, but I am under the impression that "Chicago-style" actually refers to at least three different varieties of pizza, of which deep-dish is by far the most prominent thanks to the franchising efforts of Pizzeria Uno. Haikupoet 04:08, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

• • • I live in Chicago (but am not native) and I guess I just don't see that style much. I actually really only thought of the stuffed and thin-crust styles as Chicago things. Pizzaria Uno and Due are thought of mostly as tourist things, really, though that might just be because of the section of town they're in. I can't say I've eaten there since I visited as a child so I won't call myself an expert. I suppose though that the big chains are ultimately what's going to be percieved as Chicago style pizza by the general public. Giordonno's is probably the most popular chain that has stuffed crust in Chicago. Just about every place in the city claims to have invented it so the history there is bound to be muddled. Anyway, since there's some disagreement on what exactly is the classic style of Chicago pizza, I removed the "most notably" before deep-dish in the first section.Frank 00:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
      • Both Uno's and Gino's East which is far as I can tell are the two oldest Deep Dish Pizza restraunts in Chicago have sauce/tomato's on top. Though cheese on top is found, the writer of this section is correct, the more traditional style of pizza is sauce/tomato's on top. November, 9, 2006
    • Are we really going discussing semantics of pizza here? Sauce on top or within really doesn't make a difference. That is like saying pepperoni is the only topping allowed otherwise it is not 'Chicago-style.' I have had both Sauce-On and Sauce-In and they are both exceptional pizzas. For anyone who spends anytime outside of Chicago, you'll realize the sauce location doesn't really make the distinction as much as the depth and amount of toppings. No pizza chain has ever successfully pulled off the deep dish because they don't have the time or equipment to cook a single pizza for 30 minutes. Not that I'm trying to whine here (because you removed my picture), but I think whatever picture we use need to show a cross section of a slice (as mine did) to show the world (outside of Chicago) what real deep dish pizza should look like.

Chicago style variations

This brings up a useful distinction: which is more encyclopedic, the "Chicago style pizza" that Chigago natives would recognize or the "Chicago style pizza" that most of the United States would recognize? We should clearly discuss both, but I think the more widely used definition should be the focus of the article, even if Chicago residents might find that distasteful (just as distasteful as a New Englander might find "New England clam chowder" as defined by a mid-westerner, but I can't say that their definition isn't encyclopedic). -Harmil 15:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Photo of thin crust

The thin-crust photo is the real problem. First, it's an image of less than 1/3 of the original pizza, and it's a pretty poor photo at that. There's also a dispute over the image copyright tagging. Can someone photograph a real thin-crust with one piece taken out to show thickness in whatever cutting style is typical (e.g. square if that's what is used). -Harmil 15:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is no "dispute over the image copyright tagging" that I know of: I took this picture myself. Yes, it is a bad picture. But it is legit. --Pdpp 18:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well next time you get pizza, just remember to take a new picture before you finish the thing. I'd do it myself but I'm not living near Chicago now. Ace-o-aces 15:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the new thin crust picture is a great improvement. Ace-o-aces 23:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but it's still kinda weak. C'mon, cheese pizza? WTF? Pdpp 20:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is a garlic pizza. Shsilver 21:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Squares vs wedges

Is it true that Chicago is the only city in the world where pizza is cut into squares? 163.192.21.43 15:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I've seen it done elsewhere for example around St.Louis though it isn't the standard there. November, 09, 2006

Did someone claim that it's the only place? Pdpp 20:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Use of the word pie

I've never heard Chicago style pizza (deep dish or otherwise) ever refered to as "A pie" which is another note that may differentiate Chicago style pizza(s) from other types. Should this be added?

That's true, but it's a local usage thing, rather than intrinsic to the pizza. Fijagdh 09:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The term pie is also used in the NY/NJ area. The word that should be used when refering to Chicago style is 'overrated'. ;) --Endless Dan 16:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"Flat" pizza

There's ample use of this term. I hear it commonly. Here are just a few examples: http://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level2.asp?id=356: "Edwardo's Chicago stuffed pizza, flat pizza, and other Italian dishes." http://tv.winelibrary.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1460&sid=1d353f3c44ea9f98e917ebdf62efe691#1460: "Lou Malnati's is my favorite. So is Home Run Inn, which is, believe it or not, a great flat pizza." http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=1333&sid=7362676b43b32e34d04f73c613727bb9: "That said, I'll agree that good flat pizza is hard to find in Chicago." http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=9996628 "Your Perfect Pizza: Flat pizza -- cheese or spinach, Chicago style -- broccoli and sausage" Fijagdh 09:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Myspace and a couple other weak references from online forums aren't good enough. I have to agree with the writer below that "flat pizza" is just not used. Give it up. Pdpp 19:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I frequently hear it used as slang for thin-crust pizza (I almost typed flat pizza). It may be more common in some parts of the city than others. Since Fijagdh is a foodie and restaurant critic, I would tend to trust her on this. I have another friend who's a restaurant critic who recently published a book on pizza, I'll have to check to see if she refers to flat pizza in her book. Finally, the writer below has made several incorrect comments or comments that are at best anecdotal. Fijagdh has provided evidence that the term is used.Shsilver 19:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Confirming that I hear "flat pizza" all the time. However, no one refers to it as "Chicago-style pizza" except maybe foodies arguing the difference between flat pizza in various cities and some local partisans of the style. Anywhere else in the country, Chicago-style pizza means deep-dish, or maybe stuffed.75.57.125.155 (talk) 15:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

As a lifelong Chicagoan, the very first time I ever heard "flat" pizza was here on Wikipedia. In Chicago we call pizza with a thin crust, "thin crust." Moreover, in Chicago it is assumed that you are ordering thin crust when you call a pizzeria; they don't even ask about anything other than the toppings and size. All menus say "thin crust" except for maybe the few specialty deep dish places that some users have mentioned, who may perhaps use the word flat. I have ordered from dozens of pizza places over the years. I just reviewed some of the menus of 6 Chicago Northside pizzerias, to be sure: *thin crust* is how it is described on every menu. Two of them offered "stuffed" (akin to Edwardo's stuffed) and none offered "deep dish" of the type Uno's serves.

Inserting "flat" in the article seems to be a deliberate attempt to place greater emphasis on deep dish pizza and how we Chicagoans supposedly gobble it down at every turn, so much that we have another category for pizza that isn't 2-3 inches high, a so-called "flat" pizza. This is extremely inaccurate and although quaint, it is not encyclopedic. We eat thin crust here as a rule, and when we describe it we also call it thin crust.76.237.194.108 (talk) 01:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Just because you've never heard it used, there is plenty of evidence (read above) that it is used.Shsilver (talk) 13:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The fact that a Chicagoan is a regular pizza consumer in this city speaks volumes to the lingo used. The article presents "flat" as the definitive describer for thin crust pizza, where the vast majority of pizza consumers user "thin crust" to describe it. (See other user comments as well above). A word used by the minority does not accurately reflect what a pizza is called in this city. As a hypo: Suppose in New York some call thin crust pizza "floppy disks." While it would deserve mention in an article, it would come after the generally used term. Look up some famous Chicago area restaurants known for their thin crust and see how thin crust is referred to on the menu.

May I entlighten you: Pete's Pizza, voted best by Chicago Tribune. Menu says: thin crust. Marcello's (Father & Son Restaurant/), menu: "Thin & crispy". Bacino's. menu: "Thin"

Pequod's (known for pan and thin): "Thin". And who could forget President Obama's favorite place, Italian Fiesta Pizza on the South Side: "Thin." See http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2008/11/italian-fiesta-pizzeria-barack-obama-favorite-pizza-reviewed-chicago-il.html. I am changing the article to include BOTH your "flat" description as well as the majority "thin crust" so as to properly describe this style of pizza.76.237.184.214 (talk) 21:08, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

None of which refutes the fact that, as it has said in the article, it is sometimes referred to as "flat" pizza, and you'll note that no claim was ever made that restaurants referred to it that way.Shsilver (talk) 21:57, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

There was no attempt to refute an argument that restaurants called it flat. Rather, how the local pizzerias refer to pizza is more than persuasive evidence of how it is described in that region. The fact is that flat is a word used by a minority, and if used would provoke curiosity in most Chicagoans, whereas using thin would be the norm and understood by all Chicagoans. I think that's enough convo on this topic.76.237.204.102 (talk) 17:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

As a citizen of Chicago, and a pizza maker

I work at Fasanos pizza of the south side, and have been a lover of pizza all my life... I'm hesitant to edit anything(afraid to mess anything up), but I think this is an interesting fact that isn't put on this wiki.

Chicago is famous for Deep Dish pizzas, but through my experience, the thin crust pizza out-sells it in Chicago by a very wide margin. On a Friday night, we'll make over 600 pizzas, and out of them, maybe 10 are deep dish. We maybe make 10 stuffed pizzas in a whole week. Even at parties and such, people are more likely to order the thin crust. Also, I've never ever heard of it being called "flat" pizza. That must be something people outside of Chicago call it.

Deep Dish pizza is more expensive than the Thin Crust. I definately eat more thin Crust, but to me it is a special treat to eat a deep dish or a stuffed pizza. They are very very good, it's just the whole price issue with me. I don't know about anyone else though.

Also on the deep dish...

"On the usual pizza, about a pound of cheese is used. Then a layer of seasoned crushed tomatoes goes on top and the pizza is baked to completion."

This is not a very common practice, hardly the usual pizza. Most deep dishes don't use a pound of cheese... A stuffed pizza maybe, but not a deep dish.

"Deep-dish pizza is often eaten with a knife and fork, since its thick gooeyness makes it messy to eat with the fingers."

This is also false. Deep Dish pizza is eaten like any regular pizza. Stuffed pizzas are the ones eaten with knives. Whoever wrote the deep dish part of the article must have had stuffed and deep dish pizza confused or something.

I have to say though, the stuffed pizza part of the article accurately displays a technique to making a stuffed pizza. Where I work, we don't use a special pan for Stuffed though, we just fold the top dough under the bottom dough. They are probably the hardest pizza to make, but they are very tasty.

Anyway, I know this is irrelevent, but Chicago pizza is great. It is the top on my list of reasons never to move away from Chicago.

I am also a longtime citizen of Chicago and I know the difference between stuffed and deep dish pizza. I HAVE in fact eaten deep-dish pizza with a knife and fork, and most people I know eat it this way. However, you CAN eat deep dish like a regualr pizza if you are so inclined, (and not wearing your good clothes) Ace-o-aces 17:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

75.4.178.248 True I suppose, but it definately isn't a requirement.

Nancy's pizza

The Nancy's that is mentioned in this article is not the "real" Nancy's. It's a chain that took their name. The real Nancy's is a single restaurant on York road, south of Grand Ave. They are the acclaimed deep-dish makers. This is akin to the "Real Famous Ray's" phenomenon in New York. --76.217.84.153 16:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Wrong Information: Pizzeria Uno and Due

I just ate at Due in April 2007 and the cheese is most certainly underneath of the toppings. The cheese is placed on the dough, underneath of both the sauce and toppings.

I suggest you go there yourself ;-) and edit the article accordingly.

For the record, it is amazing pizza and was open at 1am on Easter Monday - a true blessing!

76.211.230.103 01:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)kreine76.211.230.103 01:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

What kind of pizza did you order? Was it a thin crust (in which case, yes, the cheese would be under the toppings. Shsilver 02:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeast-raised vs. "biscuit" dough?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I had the impression that Chicago-style pizza crusts are typically made with a dough recipe similar to what Americans call "biscuits" and Brits call "scones" -- which is to say a "quick dough," leavened with baking powder instead of yeast. Can any Chicago natives confirm or deny? Throbert McGee 05:02, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The pizza places I've worked at in Chicago have used a yeast-based dough. Shsilver 22:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

A second on that; the pizza places I've worked at in Chicago never used anything but yeast to leaven dough, and that includes both thin crust and deep dish.--76.237.197.27 (talk) 00:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Buttery? Olive-oily?

The intro to this article says that deep-dish pizza "features a buttery crust," but the section on deep-dish pizza describes the crust as "made with olive oil and cornmeal." Which is it? If you mean to say that the olive oil gives the crust a particularly rich texture, someone should find a better wording that doesn't imply the presence of butter. Pedantically yours, FreplySpang 00:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Stuffed pizza

Stuffed pizza is not usually made with a layer of dough on top. Matter of fact it is identical to the deep dish pictures of the pizza's posted in the article. Some restaurants add a layer at the top...but the more famous one's in Chicago like Giordano's the restaurant credited in the article as popularizing the recipe does not. Here is a link to the website's stuffed pizza page, and as you can see in the picture, there is no layer of crust on the top , just tomato sauce.

[1]

69.209.205.81(talk) 02:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

In a stuffed pizza, tomato sauce goes on top of the upper level of crust so the upper level isn't visible.Shsilver (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

We eat Thin Crust in Chicago

Having been born and raised in Chicago and growing up on bi-monthly pizza orders my whole life, I, and pretty much every Chicagoan I know who watches the Food Network, are certainly surprised to find that everyone thinks we eat pan or deep dish pizza and that this is "Chicago pizza." 90% of the pizza Chicagoans order is Chicago-style thin crust, which is thin and crispy, very close to a pizza you would order in Rome, Italy. The "deep dish" or pan pizza is reserved for special occasions, once a year or less. It's pretty annoying to hear New Yorkers criticize "Chicago pizza" thinking we eat that huge casserole dish all the time. We are more thin crust lovers than anything.--69.209.231.7 (talk) 02:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

If you read the article, there is a section devoted to Chicago thin crust pizza. But yes, generally when people outside Chicago talk about Chicago-style pizza, they are referring to stuffed or deep dish because that is more difficult to find outside Chicago.Shsilver (talk) 13:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Poor "flat pizza" reference

Why is there a reference to "flat pizza" supported by a cite to a UTAH magazine purporting to describe how we speak here? The article seems to use a restauranteur's "flat pizza" description of the pizza as a marketing tool. "Thin crust" is how this pizza is described in Chicago. If flat is used, as contended by a few users above, at least cite to a reputable source, preferably a Chicago-based source or a reknowned expert on Chicago cuisine lingo usage.--76.237.197.27 (talk) 23:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

On second blush, it appears that the Utah-based journalist is the one referring to Chicago-style thin-crust as "flat pizza." Editors who support inclusion of a "flat" description, please find a valid reference or I'll remove the "flat" claim in the interest of accuracy and not spreading misinformation. Thanks...--76.237.197.27 (talk) 00:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

No feedback, so the poor reference was removed. Thin crust is generally and exclusively described as thin-crust in Chicago pizza parlance. Having worked in the industry, I would love to see a valid Chicago reference to "flat" pizza. It is not used in pizzerias in Chicago. Perhaps in Utah it is, but not in Chicago.--69.209.230.189 (talk) 23:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I've also worked in Chicago pizza places and frequently have heard thin crust referred to as "flat" pizza. Added in with another reference. The term also shows up in numerous blogs, which are generally not considered verifiable, but in this case they would serve to verify the fact that the term is in common usage. Shsilver (talk) 01:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but your link to Buzzle is an almost word-for-word copy of Wikipedia's own article. That is not proper referencing. Furthermore, the other reference you provided was by a Leah Zeldes who presents her opinion as fact; she insistd that "misguided Southsiders" believe Chicago-style thin crust is Chicago pizza, and unabashedly has this weird deep dish bias, going so far as to characterize our thin crust as "cardboard" and "greasy" (read her article). You have to do better than citing to Wikipedia itself as a reference, and this Zeldes' opinion. And you are correct, blogs are not verifiable and pretty much opinion. I wouldn't cite to one even in emergencies on an encyclopedia. So, thus far you've only given Zeldes' op-ed piece with a pro-deep dish bias to back up "flat." Geez, she shamelessly uses the word flat as a means to disparage, not describe. I will delete these references and the flat description for the sake of accuracy, but I am interested in you finding something reputable. I'm for encyclopedic accuracy, and less for my strong inclination to say "flat" is so fringe that it is not even worthy of mention in this article. Please find something more reputable to cite as a reference soon. Thanks,--69.209.230.189 (talk) 02:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. I'm providing evidence that the term is used, whether you like it or not. Every instance of its appearsnce in a blog or in Zeldes's article proves the term is used. You just refuse to accept any evidence of its use. And your own biases are even more evident than anything that Zeldes, who is a professional restaurant critic has stated. I've provided verifiable links and there are links above in the comment page to demonstrate the term is used. You just can't accept that the term is used. What you're claiming is that while it is used, it isn't correct, which is something else entirely. Shsilver (talk) 03:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

original research and synthesis. similar arguments were used here, but unless you can find references that say outright that it is referred to as this, then it fails to meet standards. riffic (talk) 04:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Rific, I wholeheatedly agree. The user abover, Shsilver, is engaged in grasping to support his edits. Simply citing to another website's original research does not somehow make it valid. Use of the word "flat" should be backed up by pizzeria parlance, or from a plethora of reputable Chicago sources. Nothing he referenced so far say it is referenced like this. Indeed, several Chicagoans above, including pizza makers contend that the term is not used. The inclusion of "flat" in this article is original research, and is an attempt to imply that Chicagoans have a "pizza duality" in their minds, including deep dish and flat. Nothing can be further than the truth. This is an encyclopedia, not a blog. If you cannot find a reputable website (aside from Buzzle, which copies Wikipedia...nice try) that flatly (no pun intended) states that this term is used in Chicago, then this will be deleted over and over again, and undoubtedly lead to edit wars by people who are more interested in the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia than as a means to innovate or lend credence to ideas. I have again reverted, waiting for some reputable, verifiable cites.--69.209.224.202 (talk) 00:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)