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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tfz (talk | contribs) at 19:23, 26 September 2009 (→‎Content of the dab page). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Edit warring

Stop edit warring and discuss your changes on this talk page. I have protected this page for 24 hours. If the edit warring continues when the protection has expired then I will not be protecting it again but will instead block the offenders. Chillum 22:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If said user would actually discuss her changes, we wouldn't have this problem! :) Jeni (talk) 22:41, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If above editor discussed the changes on M1 we might not have this problem either. Rest assured Jeni, you are not the person on Chillum's watch-list. There is some history here. He looks after me. Sarah777 (talk) 22:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Another example of a controversial change which you failed to discuss you'll find. I had to start the discussion on your behalf. Jeni (talk) 22:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to clarify, as my message has already been misunderstood, that I am not accusing anyone of edit warring here other than Sarah. Sarah, when multiple users revert your changes it is time to stop and go to the talk page to seek consensus. Regarding the history you mentioned, you will have to refresh my memory. I deal with many users on Wikipedia and I cannot remember them all. Chillum 22:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I have taken a look it seems you are indeed on my watchlist. So is Jeni and this page. I really don't remember why or how, nor do I think it is relevant to the current situation. Chillum 22:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation or redirect?

Please discuss the matter here and respect any consensus that forms through that discussion. Chillum 22:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Disambiguation - While the RoI M50 is more important than the UK M50, I don't think there is enough in it for a clear primary topic. Though I'm open to have my mind changed. Jeni (talk) 22:58, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect - The M50 around Dublin is the equivalent of the M25 around London. A quick google of "M50 motorway" shows 9 of the top 10 results refer to the Dublin road. There are hardly any clearer cases of "primacy"; not excluding the British M1. I wouldn't dispute that when people refer to "the M25" they generally mean only one thing; ditto the M50. Sarah777 (talk) 09:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC).[reply]
  • I don't know if it is location-dependent, but when I just did a plain-old Google for "M50 Motorway" I got the following;
  • (1) Wikipedia re. UK (2) Wikpedia re. Ireland (3) CBRD 'motorway database' re. UK (4) 12go.co.uk re. UK (5) m50.ie re. Ireland (6) traffic-update.co.uk re. UK (7) AllExperts re. Ireland (8) absoluteastronomy re. Ireland (9) Wapedia re. Ireland
  • The second page shows; (10) Commons category M50 Motorway (which contains 6 images re. UK, 1 re. Ireland), (11) offmotorway.com re. UK, (12) ndp.ie re. Ireland, (13) workgateways.com re. Ireland, (14) motorwayservicesonline.co.uk re. UK, (15) m50.ie re. Ireland, (16) dlrcoco.ie re. Ireland
  • A statistics tool shows the following;
  • The pages have similar numbers of incoming links; GB shows 200, Ireland has 223.
I don't agree that, when people refer to "the M50", they generally mean the Irish one. I feel pretty confident that many thousands of people use the term daily to refer to the UK one.
In conclusion, although I certainly agree that the M50 Ireland is more notable in some respects, I don't feel that it is a clear primary topic, so I !vote to disambiguate.  Chzz  ►  21:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. That precise reasoning was rejected when applied to the British M1. We cannot have double standards based on nationalism. Sarah777 (talk) 13:52, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to the Irish M50, which is arguably the most important motorway in Ireland (Dublin ring road). More to the point, the British M50 is remarkably unimportant, it's not as if it connects two major cities or relieves a major city. It seems to be largely redundant to the existence of the two Severn motorway bridges (M4 and M48). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The British M50 was apparently important enough that its constuction was rushed through before the connecting part of the M5 was built. With a mere 4:1 view count and level par on incoming links, the Irish M50 doesn't make for a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC IMO. Compare the M1 situation, where the incoming links are 2:1 over all other uses. Arguably the Irish M50 is more important, but the numbers aren't strong enough to justify a change. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 14:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • 4:1 view count isn't that mere if you consider the fact that there will be far more British users than Irish users of this site. My basic premise stands, the Irish M50 is arguably the most important motorway in Ireland, whereas the English M50 is a little known and used road that is now redundant to other routes.

Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

        • Where our users come from is irrelevant. The important question is where a visitor from somewhere unrelated will want to go. The idea that the English M50 is somehow redundant is grossly mistaken, as anyone in the road haulage industry will tell you. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 18:17, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well it appears that four times as many are going to the Irish M50. Having the primary page as disam is of no benefit or cost for anyone looking for the English M50 - they would still have to click once to reach that page. Moving the page however to the Irish M50 would be of benefit to the majority of users looking for that page since they wouldn't have to click at all. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:58, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed BritishWatcher (talk) 21:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disambiguation. The Irish motorway is clearly more important than the English one in terms of its significance to its country's transport infrastructure transport, and it gets more hits. However, I don't hold with using hits or internal links as ranking tools, because they are measuring aspects of wikipedia rather than of any external reality, and we don't do self-references.
    Disambiguation is such a powerful tool for ensuring that links point where they are supposed to, and I see no advantage to readers in setting it aside in this case. But it's rather depressing to see British editors who scream "vandalism" when a British motorway is moved from being primary topic now coming to this article and applying a wholly different set of criteria. Some consistency, please. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:59, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reality check BHG: you won't get consistency from folk who, in many cases, have no clue that they are being inconsistent! (Conditioning it's called). In other cases they will simply impose their preference for British primacy knowing that any "vote" will be heavily in favour of British pov. So when we have a fairly clear case (perhaps the only "M" example) of Irish primacy we should embrace it. Your vote here is not helpful as reciprocation is simply not going to happen. Sarah777 (talk) 22:33, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sarah, my support for disambiguation is because I believe that's the best option. It's not part of any tactical game, and nor am I interested in "Irish primacy". I'm neither for nor against it; I just want ambiguous article titles disambiguated, and I really don't care for the politics around this technical issue. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't a technical issue; unless you are blind it is obvious this is a political issue - we cannot have double standards when applying WP:COMMONAME - one for UK roads; another for everywhere else. To look at one road in isolation is complete nonsense. Sarah777 (talk) 13:49, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sarah, it seems to me that there is both a technical and a political issue here. The technical issue is whether to disambiguate, and I have taken a consistent view for years that the notion of a primary topic should be applied only when one topic is massively more important than all other topics with which there is ambiguity.
Others take a different view on the merits of a primary topic, which is fair enough in theory ... but where this becomes political is that there is a group of British editors who apply their criteria for a primary topic inconsistently, and shamelessly abuse admin powers to block those who disagree with them, threaten others with blocks, and protect pages at their preferred versions.
So I quite agree that the British editors are applying a double-standard as you describe, but I am not going to play the same game. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:56, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually as far as I can see, the only person who thinks this is at all political is yourself. We need to look at each road on it's merits - these show that the British M1, M3 and M4 are clear examples of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and that the British M2 and M50 are clearly not primary topics. Aditionally it is clear that no M2 is a primary topic. Whether the Irish M50 is the primary topic or whether there is no primary topic for that title is less clear - based on a pure headcount I make it 6-3 in favour of there being no primary topic, which I would not personally declare as a consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 14:28, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Would either of you care to look at what people are actually saying? Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have done so, obviously. What is your point, exactly? Sarah777 (talk) 13:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Content of the dab page

Some British editors have been trying to impose the use of the term "Republic of Ireland" in the disambiguation page.

The legal name of the Irish state is simply "Ireland", and the use of "Republic of Ireland" as a disambiguating term has long been contentious, which is why there is a huge arbcom-sanctioned collaboration exercise underway at WP:IECOLL to resolve it.

Much stability has been achieved by accepting that "Republic of Ireland" should be used in article text only where there is ambiguity, and that Ireland is acceptable in other cases. There is often some dispute about whether the ambiguity exists, but in this case there is none, because there is only one Dublin in the whole of Ireland, and only one M50 motorway.

So please don't use "Republic of Ireland" in this dab page. It's entirely un-needed, and its contentiousness simply guarantees that it will be reverted. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd recommend, if we're going to use 'United Kingdom' in the descriptive for the British road? we should use 'Republic of Ireland|Ireland' for the Irish road. In truth, I'd rather go with no descriptives so as to avoid the geo-political stuff. Wouldn't ya'll agree? GoodDay (talk) 19:04, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is supposed to be discussed at the moment on the IRCOLL. Tfz 19:06, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We could use 'Ireland (state)' he he. GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GoodDay, this is a disambiguation page, where we need to unambiguously describe where each road is (see examples at WP:MOSDAB), so each link is accompanied by a few explanatory words). There is nothing ambiguous about "Dublin, Ireland", so no need to use RoI.

I have no view on whether the M50 in the West of England is described as being in the "United Kingdom", "Great Britain" or "England". All are accurate and all are unambiguous, but I don't know which is preferred by the style guides. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:16, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd still recommend that we use Republic of Ireland|Ireland, thus making the country article appear as 'Ireland'. Right now, there's an inconsistancy using 'Great Britain' & 'Ireland' in the discriptives. GoodDay (talk) 19:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No need, not ambiguous, and you have read imos and ircoll, haven't you? Tfz 19:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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