Talk:Hauptschule

to the editor of the english "hauptschule" article:

your direct-translation of "hauptschule" into "head school" is not correct. "haupt" does not only mean "head" but also "general". a correct direct translation of "hauptschule" would be "general school" which obviously makes more sense than "head school".

regards, martin

Similarities to Other Nations

This seems like a superfluous section without any real relation to the rest of the article. It might belong in an article on the US school system, but doesn't add anything to this article. GBMorris 20:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it is interesting to compare the German and US school systems, just the section's title doesn't fit. It's not about similarities, but differences.

Entrance Exams

I studied German in the American Public school system so my facts may be wrong. Is there some kind of exam that students take to determine which school system (haupt, real, or gym) they will be attending? What is the name of this exam? -Milligan

No....I went to school in germany and as far as I know there isn`t anything such as an exam like that. But by the end of 4th grade teachers give an "Empfehlung"(=advice) to each student, which school is the best for them.

Yes, the lovely German system where your teachers decide when you're in 4th grade whether or not you should go to university. Angr 10:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

After leaving the Realschule you can attend to a Fachoberschule, to get your Fachhochschulreife. That enables you to study at universities of applied science. With good marks you can also attend to the last classes of a Gymnasium. With Hauptschulabschluss (9th grade) you could attend to the 10th grade which gets you the Fachoberschulreife (=Realschulabschluss), so you can visit a Fachoberschule or - with great marks - a Gymnasium. This openness is indeed lovely :) -- 15:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

yeah...but...I mean....lets face it......in germany the degree of sucess a child has in school isn't necessarily connected to the degree of intelligence that this child has anyway but to the wealth of his/her parents. Since Pisa we know that education is connected to money in germany almost as close as in no other european country. Sad but true.

As far as I know there used to be entrance exams, but they where abolished, because they were seen as being biased against working class children. It was the "Social Democratic Party", which was in favour of abolishing them.

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German education starts late (Kindergarten teachers have a strong reluctance against exposing children to any learning at all. This is ideologically grounded and may be an overcompensation to the extreme pressure put on German children of previous generations) and streams very early: 10-11 year olds are placed in a either a university preparation or practical track, from which it is hard to deviate.

The result is that there is very little time for schooling to make adjustments for any weaknesses in upbringing. Put another way, a child which enters school with some disadvantage - for instance, a child from an immigrant family who enters with lesser competency in German - has very little time to catch up before being streamed. Not surprisingly, this leads to a pronounced correlation between a family's social position (earnings) and the child's educational attaninments.

Since the publication of the the first PISA study in 2000 (at the latest), the public has become aware of strong dependence between education and family income, and members of all social classes have expressed a wish for more a egalitarian outcome, as well as for generally stronger results. Nevertheless, there significant difficulties to making a corrections:

Germany is a fairly conservative country, and educational reforms - for instance, delaying streaming - are characteristically politically volatile. The public is generally sceptical of educational reforms, blaming Germany's mediocre PISA performance on an earlier wave of reforms in the 70s.

In fact, the PISA reaction to date has caused the connection between income and educational result to become perversely more prominent. Without introducing structural changes, the educational ministries pressured all schools to improve results. Whereas Gymnasium children were able to respond, e.g. to curriculum changes refocussing on core subjects, with improved scores, children at the Hauptschulen had less capacity for quick improvement, as they typically carry forward educational liabilities compounded over a long period, so that the Hauptschule performance was largely unchanged. --Philopedia 02:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Exaggerated and Generally Questionable

Personally, I find the text below dubious and exaggerated:

the opinion of the general public often being that Hauptschulen only harbor the bottom end of society. The graduation certificate is the Hauptschulabschluss, which like the assignment to other types high schools is less valuable than the Realschulabschluss or university-bound Abitur. Stereotypes of dysfunctional family backgrounds, absent and/or unemployed parents and domestic violence and alcohol abuse are often cited when describing what is believed to be the typical social origin of these students. Teachers often complain about ongoing difficulties in trying to properly educate them and parents refusing to take responsibility. Moreover, and based on these problems, it has become very hard for Hauptschule graduates to find qualified work

While it is true that the Hauptschule is rarely the first choice among the educational alternatives in Germany, it does succeed in providing an appropriate general preparation for youngsters who, whether because of inclination, ability or family background are not intending later attendance at a university. Youngsters in the Hauptschule may encounter difficulty in finding employment or apprenticeship positions, but so do graduates of the Gesamtschulen, Realschulen and Gymnasien; all of whom have to come to terms with the difficulty economic situation in Germany since the reunification. Indeed, I think the context of dysfunctional families, alcoholism, etc has more to do with drop outs, rather than to Hauptschuler(innen) who, after all, are following a productive (if clearly not elite) path in life.

I am tempted to adjust the text, but wanted first to see whether I could stimulate discussion. Do other readers share the view as currently included in the article?

--Philopedia 00:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Orientierungsstufe

I agree to some of the comments I read here..

The author of that article didn't mention the Orientierungsstufe, which still exists in some states(Bundeslaender). The Orientierungsstufe includes the 5th and 6th grade and helps the teacher to give their advice(Empfehlung) by the end of the 6th grade. But finallly it's the parents decision whether they want to send their child in the Hauptschule or Realschule (I experienced that with a friend of mine). Of course it is not possible to send your child to a Gymnasium, when his/her teacher gave an advice to a Hauptschule...

But I have to agree to the author of the second comment, the family income and the status of your education has a lot in common. Further it is also of importance where you did your high school diploma: for example in Hessen or in Bremen, like me (one of the states with very bad results within the Pisa test). To receive a high school diploma in Hessen is much more difficult than in Bremen..I by myself noticed that with friends who did their diploma in Niedersachsen... Another example is the high school I've been.. during my 11th grade I learned quite as nothing new and had to face another big problem in german public schools, that I didn't knew before: cancellation of classes. Often we just didn't have classes because teachers were sick or the school just had no other teacher! Sad but true, often there was just no money for new teachers..so mostly we had trainee teacher, which often did a very good job. But the problem was that they were finished after one year..so what to do next?- hire a new teacher, who had to get to know his students first..get into the materials, then repeating the materials and so on..so there was often no time to learn new and important things...

As you see I am from Germany (maybe even by the mistakes..). And I think that nowadays it doesn't play a big role whether you went to a Hauptschule or not.. It is hard for every young person in Germany whether to get an apprenticeship training position (Ausbildung) or a job after you've studied.. edith —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edith87 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

The statement the advice of the teacher determines whether a student can go to a Gymnasium or a Hauptschule just isn't true - at least in Bavaria. In fact, after the 4th year in the Grundschule, the grades in the main subjects math, german and HSK (Heimat- und Sachkunde -> social studies) are crucial. F.e., to go to the Gynmasium, a child needs an average in grades of at least 2.33 ("noch gut", still good). I even have a friend whose teacher gave the advice to send him to a Hauptschule even though he had good grades and is smart. Luckily for him his parents didn't take it ;). A short addition to the mentioned "Orientierungsstufe": As far as I know, there is also the possibility to leave after the 5th grade of school. If you want to go to the Gymnasium, you'll have to repeat it, however. 217.225.244.17 04:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Similarities to other "nations"

This section should be changed to similarities to other "states" or "countries." A nation is a group of people with a national identiity, not neccasarily a country, like Kurds or Palestinians. Since education is almsot always determened by the gobverning power in a region, it would be more acurate to refer to states or countries.

This should be done with other language articles too.

Abolishing Hauptschule

It should be mentioned that some state have already or plan to abolish Hauptschule. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.212.87 (talk) 18:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)